Rapture

November 16, 2005

Joel 2:1-16:

Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand;

Joe 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, [even] to the years of many generations.

Joe 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land [is] as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

Joe 2:4 The appearance of them [is] as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

Joe 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

Joe 2:6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

Joe 2:7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

Joe 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and [when] they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

Joe 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp [is] very great: for [he is] strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joe 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye [even] to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:

Joe 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he [is] gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

Joe 2:14 Who knoweth [if] he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; [even] a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?

Joe 2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:

Joe 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

The tribulation followed by the bridegroom leaving His chamber and the bride out of her closet. Once again, this shows the church (the bride) will not be on earth during the tribulation / wedding week. The bride will be hidden away in her closet for safety. See the following:

Revelation fourteen is an important passage because it brings together several elements from other parallel passages. I believe there can be no doubt that Revelation 14:17-20 is drawn directly from Joel 3:12-16. Compare these two passages for yourself. Joel adds something very important to this event. First, he included the cosmic sign, the darkening of the sun and moon. And, he called this the "Day of the Lord." The parallel winepress in Revelation 19:15 makes it all but certain that each of these passages refer to the battle of Armageddon. Yet, the sun and moon sign ties in the Olivet Discourse where Jesus spoke of these events as occurring "immediately after the tribulation." Jesus also spoke of the Son of Man coming on the clouds to harvest His elect, again paralleling Revelation 14:14-16.

Explain Joel 3

Heres look at this comparison:

The Day of the Lord...

Sun & Moon Darkened

Armies Gathered

Winepress of Wrath

Second Coming

Kingdom Follows

...In Joel 3

verse15

verses 9-11

verse 13

verse 12,16

verse 7-21

...In Revelation 14

-

verse 18

verse 19

-

...In Revelation 19

-

verse 19

verse 15

verse 11

Chap. 20

The comparison of these three passages shows clearly that each are speaking of the same event, the second coming of Christ after the tribulation. So, the placement of the first harvest by the Son of Man, on the cloud, clearly reflects the idea that the rapture of the righteous occurs just before the battle of Armageddon.

The uniform teaching of Jesus, Peter, and Paul, the absence of a pre-trib rapture in Revelation, and Revelation's description of a dual harvest, makes a very compelling case for the post-trib position. These parallel passages also make a good case for the idea that Revelation in not entirely sequential from beginning to end. If the battle of Armageddon is found in chapters 14 and 19, Revelation, like Daniel, must contain a certain amount of recapitulation. [For further study of this concept, see the series of articles, "The Chronology of Revelation" found on the main page].

Joel Explained:

Past tense verbs are red.

Present tense verbs are blue.

Future tense verbs are green.

Joel 1:1-2:1

1 The word of the LORD that came to Joel the son of Pethuel.

2 Hear this, you elders, and give ear, all you inhabitants of the land! Has anything like this happened in your days, or even in the days of your fathers?

3 Tell your children about it, let your children tell their children, and their children another generation.

4 What the chewing locust left, the swarming locust has eaten; what the swarming locust left, the crawling locust has eaten; and what the crawling locust left, the consuming locust has eaten.

5 Awake, you drunkards, and weep; and wail, all you drinkers of wine, because of the new wine, for it has been cut off from your mouth.

6 For a nation has come up against My land, strong, and without number; his teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he has the fangs of a fierce lion.

7 He has laid waste My vine, and has stripped it bare and thrown it away; its branches are made white.

8 Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.

9 The grain offering and the drink offering have been cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests mourn, who minister to the LORD.

10 The field is wasted, the land mourns; for the grain is ruined, the new wine is dried up, the oil fails.

11 Be ashamed, you farmers, wail, you vinedressers, for the wheat and the barley; because the harvest of the field has perished.

12 The vine has dried up, and the fig tree has withered; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree-- all the trees of the field are withered; surely joy has withered away from the sons of men.

13 Gird yourselves and lament, you priests; wail, you who minister before the altar; come, lie all night in sackcloth, you who minister to my God; for the grain offering and the drink offering are withheld from the house of your God.

14 Consecrate a fast, call a sacred assembly; gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry out to the LORD.

15 Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as destruction from the Almighty.

16 Is not the food cut off before our eyes, joy and gladness from the house of our God?

17 The seed shrivels under the clods, storehouses are in shambles; Barns are broken down, for the grain has withered.

18 How the animals groan! The herds of cattle are restless, because they have no pasture; even the flocks of sheep suffer punishment.

19 O LORD, to You I cry out; for fire has devoured the open pastures, and a flame has burned all the trees of the field.

20 The beasts of the field also cry out to You, for the water brooks are dried up, and fire has devoured the open pastures.

(NKJV)

Chapter two begins speaking about the future Day of the Lord.

Joel 2:1-2

1 Blow the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; for the day of the LORD is coming, for it is at hand:

2 A day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, the like of whom has never been; nor will there ever be any such after them, even for many successive generations.

(NKJV)

This chapter continues to describe the future Day of the Lord, where God's angelic army will devour the wicked with fire and destruction. Joel uses language that is nearly identical to the description of the plague of locusts mentioned in chapter one. This is done to drive home to the Jews the totality of the destruction that is coming, while the results of the locust plague was still fresh in their minds. The message is REPENT before the Day of the Lord overtakes them. If they repent, God promised to restore their crops that the locusts had eaten (vss. 25-27).

This is followed by a famous prophecy of the Day of the Lord quoted by Peter on the Day of Pentecost. Here again, the Day of the Lord is referred to in the future tense.

Joel 2:28-32

28 "And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.

29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

30 "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood and fire and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.

32 And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the remnant whom the LORD calls.

(NKJV)

Again, the Day of the Lord is consistently FUTURE. The last chapter goes into detail, giving the events of the Day of the Lord in graphic detail.

Joel 3:9-17

9 Proclaim this among the nations: "Prepare for war! Wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near, let them come up.

10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears; let the weak say, 'I am strong.'"

11 Assemble and come, all you nations, and gather together all around. Cause Your mighty ones to go down there, O LORD.

12 "Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; for there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.

13 Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, go down; for the winepress is full, the vats overflow-- for their wickedness is great."

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and moon will grow dark, and the stars will diminish their brightness.

16 The LORD also will roar from Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; the heavens and earth will shake; but the LORD will be a shelter for His people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 "So you shall know that I am the LORD your God, dwelling in Zion My holy mountain. Then Jerusalem shall be holy, and no aliens shall ever pass through her again."

(NKJV)

It is clear, in verses nine and following, that the Day of the Lord begins AFTER the armies have gathered for the battle of Armageddon. We know that the darkening of the sun and moon occurs "immediately after the tribulation," according to Matt. 24:29. Yet, according to Joel, after the armies have gathered and the sun and moon are darkened, the text says the Day of the Lord is "NEAR in the valley of decision." This implies that the Day of the Lord FOLLOWS the cosmic signs (as 2:31 explicetly says) and that the Day of the Lord is intimately connected with the Battle of Armageddon.

There is no biblical reason to supose that the "Day of the Lord" is anything more than a single 24 hour day. It is the day of the second coming after the tribulation.

The fact is, you pre-tribs' attempt to get around the problem of 1 Thess. 5 are all doomed to failure. The Day of the Lord is a single day, immediately following the darkening of the sun and moon (Joel 2:31 & Acts 2:20) which immediately follows the tribulation (Matt. 24:29). Since Paul indicates that we as Christians are watching for the coming of the Day of the Lord, and connects the rapture with this day, the rapture is necessarily post-trib, and occurs the same day Jesus destroys the armies gathered at Armageddon.

November 16, 2005

I didn't want to let all of 831's fans down, so I came back

Heres a great link that will answer all your questions: http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/index.html#pretrib . Tim Warner even has posted debates with pretribs that might help you realize the Truth. It's obvious that your determined to keep your pretrib views and I don't expect you to admit I'm right once you realize your wrong, but all I'm looking to accomplish with this is you learn the truth behind the lies you've been taught and for you to understand the scriptures as the disciples viewed and clearly wrote them. When I was pretrib, I had a few people try showing me their post-trib views and I denied it being true, until I read the bible and I suggest you do the same before you attack something you haven't even researched from a post trib view. You need to look with an open mind and go off of what the scriptures say on a post-trib site and not a pretrib site to get it from our view. Before you ask me another question look on this site first, most of the stuff I posted was from this site and you should be able to find answers to all your wrong beliefs there. I'm really limited on time right now to debate due to work. God Bless you and have fun studying!

Post-tribbers believe Paul's teaching concerning the rapture is completely compatible with, and built upon, the teaching of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse. There were some new details added by Paul, but the general sequence of events are identical.

In 1 Cor. 15, Paul wrote primarily of the resurrection of believers, and the fact that we will be raised "incorruptible." We do not have space here for an in-depth exegesis of this passage. However, I would like to point out three things that I believe connect this event to Jesus' post-tribulation coming in Matthew twenty-four.

Paul said the reason our bodies will be changed is because; "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" [1 Cor. 15:50]. The future "Kingdom of God" he is speaking of is the Millennial Kingdom. Since the purpose for this putting on incorruption is because our old bodies cannot inherit the Millennial Kingdom to reign with Christ, this implies that the change would occur at the beginning of that Kingdom. There is nothing here about going to heaven. Heaven is never spoken of as the "Kingdom of God." The context also clearly indicates Paul was referring to the Millennium, [see: vss. 22-28].

Paul said this will occur "at the last trumpet" [1 Cor. 15:52]. If we were to assume a pre-trib scenario, this "last trumpet" could not be last, because Jesus said He will sound the trumpet to gather His elect "immediately after the tribulation" [Matt. 24:31]. In order for it to be "last," it would seem to be identical with the trumpet of which Jesus spoke, thereby placing the resurrection of believers after the tribulation.

Isaiah 2

10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.

11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:...

17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish.

19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

(KJV)

Twice these verses indicate that the Lord alone will be exalted in the "Day of the Lord." This is an exclusive statement. No one else can be exalted or worshipped during the "Day of the Lord." Yet, during the tribulation, the Antichrist will be worshipped as God. [see: Rev. 13:3-8,14 & 2 Thess. 2:3,4] And, his image will be worshipped as well. Isaiah's statements about the Lord alone being exalted, and the idols being abolished during the "Day of the Lord," forbid any overlapping with the tribulation and reign of Antichrist.

2 Thessalonians 1

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe because our testimony among you was believed in that day.

(KJV)

Notice first of all, believers will rest from persecution when Jesus is revealed from heaven in judgment, [1:7]. Since this coming in judgment is post-tribulational, the rapture must also be post-tribulational.

No one will deny this coming is "post-tribulational." No pre-tribulationist believes Jesus will come in flaming fire, bringing vengeance on the ungodly, before the tribulation! However, many passages speak of Christ's coming in judgment after the tribulation. This passage makes it perfectly clear that Christians will "rest" from their tribulations at that time. Paul was in effect telling them when their ordeal would end, at the post-tribulation coming of Christ in judgment. In a pre-tribulation rapture scenario, Christians would have already been resting for seven years before this event, making Paul's statement dubious and illogical. Paul was trying to comfort the Thessalonian Christians in their persecutions. Yet, his encouragement was not centered around an alleged "any moment" pre-tribulation rapture, whereby they might expect immediate relief, but looked forward to the appearing of Christ in glory. By connecting their relief from persecution with the post-tribulational coming of Christ, Paul effectively placed the rapture after the tribulation. Notice also, that he connected their seeing Christ and admiring Him for the first time with the same coming in judgment, [2 Thess. 1:10].

This is a good Topic you should try proving wrong:

http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/2thess2.html

In Revelation 20, John described the resurrected saints being given places of authority in Christ's Kingdom.

Revelation 20

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

(KJV)

The "first resurrection" which includes the tribulation martyrs is the only resurrection in the book of Revelation. Notice that John did not actually see the resurrection of the saints taking place, but described resurrected saints being given their places of authority in the Kingdom. It is clear that they had been previously resurrected. According to verse four, this resurrection includes those who were slain by the Antichrist. Therefore, they must have come through the tribulation, not bypassed it. This resurrection, which is clearly post-tribulational, was called by John, the "first resurrection." He contrasted it with the resurrection of the ungodly after the millennium. Of those who will experience the "first resurrection" he said: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." The implication is that all those who will reign with Christ will be raised in the "first resurrection." The fact that he called this the "first resurrection" precludes the possibility of there being a resurrection before this one at the beginning of the tribulation. By placing the "first resurrection" after the tribulation, John has also placed the rapture after the tribulation.

Many try to escape this obvious conclusion by claiming there are two stages to the "first resurrection" of the saints. The first stage being before the tribulation, and the second being after the tribulation, as described in Revelation twenty. But this interpretation is extremely strained and unnatural. If John meant this was the second stage of the "first resurrection" he would have said so, especially since there is no other resurrection mentioned in Revelation. For that matter, there is no resurrection before the tribulation anywhere in the Bible! The original readers of this epistle would have had no basis to draw such a conclusion. The natural, unforced, interpretation of Revelation twenty requires a post-tribulation resurrection of the Church of Jesus Christ.

This agrees with Paul's comments in 1 Cor. 15.

1 Cor 15:22-23

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

(NKJ)

Paul seems to say there is only a single future coming of Christ when ALL saints will be raised! No doubt Paul was referring to Jesus' plain teaching that all who belong to Him will be raised the same day.

John 6:39,40,44,54

39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." ...

44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. ...

54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

(NKJ)

John 11:24

24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

(NKJ)

Some pre-tribbers claim that this resurrection cannot occur at the rapture because it follows the second coming in chapter 19. However, this objection is based on misunderstanding the verb tenses that John used, and poor English translations.

John was NOT describing the "first resurrection" as taking place at that time. The English wording in most translations does not do a very good job of conveying the precise verb tenses found in the Greek text. In most cases in Revelation, John recorded what he saw in the order he saw it. But, in the case of the "first resurrection," the wording and tenses of the verbs in the Greek text suggests that the first resurrection was already past, and John was seeing the saints already ruling on thrones. The rest is his explanation of who these people are.

Notice that John did NOT say he saw the resurrection. He began by saying that he saw THRONES with people sitting on them. This was a Millennial scene he was describing. They are already reigning with Christ, INCLUDING the resurrected martyrs of the tribulation. John then went on to explain who these people are. The second occurrence of the words "and I saw" in verse 4 are NOT in the Greek text, but were added by the translators. They give the false impression that the martyrs were resurrected after the others. That is NOT what the Greek text says at all. Here is Young's Literal Translation.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;"

Here is how the Greek text literally reads word for word: "And (I) saw thrones and (they) sat upon them, and judgment had been given to them and the souls that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus..."

The words "was given" (KJV) in verse 4 is the Greek word "edothee" (a form of "didomi" #1325). This verb tense points to an action that occurred in the past but has continuing results into the present. It is precisely the same verb used by Jesus in Matt. 28:18, where He said, "all authority in heaven and earth has been given unto me." SO, John was not describing judgment being given to them. Rather, he was telling his readers that judgment had already been given to them prior to his seeing them on thrones.

Also, the verb "lived" in verse 4 does NOT mean raise up, or the act of being resurrected. It is "ezesan" a form of "zao" (life). In this tense, the verb means the state of living after having been raised. Here are three other verses that use precisely the same verb in the same tense.

Luke 15:32

32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

(KJV)

Rev 2:8

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

(KJV)

Rev 13:14

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

(KJV)

As you can see, in every case this verb means a state of living AFTER having been raised, not the act of being raised. We see then that judgment being given to them was something already accomplished, and their resurrection was already accomplished when John saw them reigning on thrones in Rev. 20. Now, lets translate this passage, leaving out the words that are not in the Greek text, and using the more precise verb tenses. I have put John's explanatory notes in parenthesis in order to mark off what John actually saw from his regressing to give explanations. The parenthetical portion is not a part of what he actually saw occurring in sequence.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, (and judgment had been given unto them AND the souls that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands); and they were living and reigning with Christ a thousand years. (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished); (This is the first resurrection)."

Note the switch from the present tense, where John was narrating what he saw, to his regressing in order to explain who these people are, (the bracketed portion). The reason he mentioned "souls" was NOT because he saw "souls," but to identify some of the ones reigning on thrones as the "souls" he had previously seen under the altar at the 5th seal.

Rev 6:9-11

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

(KJV)

John was showing the final results of the martyr's "waiting" for a little season. He described one large group who were all sitting on thrones. Then he explained that some of these were the "souls" he had previously seen under the altar, who had later been given authority, and were at that time LIVING and REIGNING with Christ in His Kingdom. This is also the position of the Jamieson - Faussett - Brown Commentary which says of this verse, "From #Re 6:9, I infer that "souls" is here used in the strict sense of spirits disembodied when first seen by John." So, in the sequence of events that John was describing, the "first resurrection" had already taken place (presumably at at the second coming). He was describing the aftermath of the resurrection, and what became of the souls he had previously seen under the altar, not the resurrection itself.

Phil 1:10

10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

(KJV)

Phil 2:16

16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

(KJV)

Paul assumed his readers knew what "day" he was speaking about. He did not explain in either verse whether this day was the coming of Christ BEFORE or AFTER the tribulation. He assumed his readers knew that the "Day of Christ" was the day for which they were watching and waiting. Therefore, it is right to associate it with the rapture (but not necessarily a pre-trib rapture). However, in 2 Thess. 2:1-3, Paul indicated that the Antichrist must come BEFORE the "Day of Christ." So, IF "Day of Christ" was a technical term, it is a POST-TRIB technical term, and the above verses are referring to a post-trib rapture.

Paul used other variations on the name of Christ, when referring to His "Day," as the future time for which believers watch and wait.

1 Cor 1:8

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(KJV)

2 Cor 1:14

14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.

(KJV)

Phil 1:6

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

(KJV)

All of these terms are given without explanation. Logically, all refer to the same "day," because in each case this "day" seems to be the day on which believers had placed their hope, ie, Christ's coming for His Church.

Likewise, the term "Day of the Lord" is simply another variation on the name of Christ. It is His day (Luke 17:24). The term is used in several contexts, each time the writer expected his readers to understand the specific day to which he refered without giving any explanation (pre- or post-trib). This is very problematic for pre-tribbers, because, if the Apostles were pre-trib (and expected two future comings of Christ, they would need to indicate to their hearers or readers whether they were referring to a pre- or post-trib event. Also, the term "Day of the Lord" was used repeatedly in the Old Testament in referrence to Christ's post-trib coming to set up His Kingdom (see: Isa. 13:1-13, Joel 3:9-17, Zech. 14:1-6). And, it is clearly AFTER the tribulation (cf. Matt. 24:29 & Acts 2:20). Yet, in 1 Thess. 5:1,2, Paul used the term 'Day of the Lord' for the rapture.

Mark 13:24-27

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven....

33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

(KJV)

In my judgment, this passage shows that Jesus was speaking to the Church in the Olivet Discourse. Notice, His "leaving His house," refers to Jesus' ascension to heaven. He elsewhere told the disciples He was "going away," but would return for them. Next, He "gave authority to His servants," and, "to every man his work." This is unquestionably referring to the Great Commission, which was given to the Church. Then, He commanded them to "watch" for His coming. Again, there is absolutely no question that Jesus was referring to the period of time between His ascension and second coming, [or the "Church age" to borrow a pre-trib term]. He was referring to Christians when He said to "watch." The question then is, watch for what? The context answers this question in verses 24-27. We, as Christians, are to be watching for Jesus' coming "after the tribulation."

Edited November 16, 2005 by Justin62

November 16, 2005

Ok I'll stop posting so much till some one else does. I might have posted something twice, but oh well its obviously going to help you the more you read it. But I couldn't leave this out.

Luke 17:26-30

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

(KJV)

Jesus emphasized the fact that the righteous will be delivered the same day the wicked are utterly destroyed. The sudden and total destruction mentioned by Jesus can only refer to the battle of Armageddon, when Jesus will destroy the Antichrist and his armies, [Rev. 19:11-21]. It cannot refer to a prolonged judgment such as the plagues of Revelation. Since the deliverance of the righteous will occur "the same day" the wicked are utterly destroyed, it is logical to place this supernatual deliverance immediately before the battle of Armageddon. This is precisely what Paul wrote in 1 Thess. 5:1-2, that Jesus' coming "as a thief in the night" will bring "sudden destruction" on the ungodly yet relief for Christians who are watching for His coming.

Luke 17:31-37

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

(KJV)

This is the very first time the Scriptures record Jesus' description of the rapture for His disciples. Notice the righteous will be supernaturally "taken" from their beds, the fields, and at work, while the wicked will be left behind.

THE PLACE OF SAFETY

The disciples' curiosity prompted them to ask, "Where Lord?" [vs. 37]. They wanted to know where the righteous will be taken at the rapture. Noah had an ark, and was lifted up above the waters of destruction, where he viewed the devastation of the world by the flood. Lot was escorted by the angels to a place of safety, yet in full view of the burning of Sodom. The disciples wanted to know what they could expect when this scenario begins to unfold. Jesus' response was to paint a word picture that they were all quite familiar with. Many times the disciples had observed the birds of prey circling in the sky, hovering above while animals were being attacked by other animals. The birds would hover above the scene until all signs of life were gone. Then they would take the spoils. If we tie this word picture into Jesus' previous statement about the destruction of the wicked, the picture Jesus painted becomes quite obvious. At the battle of Armageddon, prophesied so clearly in several Old Testament [Zech. 14 & Joel 3], the Lord will destroy the wicked and the saints will take the spoils [Dan. 7:18]. The carnage of the wicked will cover the landscape below, while the birds of prey hover in the sky above out of harm's way until the battle is over.

We see from these passages that the righteous, gathered from all around the world, will be brought to a single location. Where? In the clouds above the battle scene, where Jesus is going to wipe out the armies of the nations so He can establish Himself as King of all the earth. When the righteous are gathered they will hover above in the clouds like eagles while the carnage covers the landscape below all around Jerusalem. When the battle is over, the righteous will take the spoils. "But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever." [Dan. 7:18]. On the Day of the Lord, after Jerusalem is attacked and rescued by the return of the Lord, "your plunder will be divided among you." [Zech. 14:1]

IMPLICATIONS FOR THE RAPTURE

Luke 17 provides us with two very important facts, both of which require a post-trib rapture.

1. The righteous will be delivered the same day the wicked are destroyed.

2. Those who are "taken" (caught up in the air) will immediately proceed to the location in the clouds above the battle scene.

Revelation also places Christ's coming for believers at the time of Armageddon.

Revelation 16:15

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

(KJV)

Verse 16 above provides the context - the Battle of Armageddon. Yet, this is the coming for which Christians are instructed to watch.

You believe in Luke 17 that the righteous are taken and the wicked left? So you have a post-trib, view? Noah and Lot show that the righteous were first supernaturally relocated to a place of safety and then the remaining wicked were destroyed. Jesus said it will be the same at His coming. At the rapture, the righteous will be caught up, then the wicked will be destroyed "the same day."

Explain that too. Bless you All

Edited November 16, 2005 by Justin62

November 16, 2005

Hi All.

We to can come up with lots & lots of verses like you have & we already have done. The facts are still the same. You have been given the chance to prove us all wrong. You have been given this chance on a plate, but you just will not take that opportunity up will you. So that as I have said goes to show that you do not have the strength of faith that you claim to have as if you did you would take this challenge up & prove us all wrong.

You can cut & paste every post -trib stie on the web if you wish it does not change the facts that you was given the chance to prove us all wrong & you have wriggled & squirmed & twisted & writhed in all directions but you have not taken up that challenge. So that again proves you wrong!. As far as anyone else who may be following this thread can see is that you are to afraid to take this challenge & as far as your post-trib friends are concerned like those in the post -trib last trump, I say the post trib last trump because if you go n the web there is two of them one is the wrong one the post-trib one & the other is the last trumpet news letter by David Meyer lasttrumpministries.org this by the way is not the link I have just posted the address to that site.

I give the same challenge to your friends at these post-trib sites as well for them to go & challenge Dr Arnold Fruchtenbuam. We are not scholars we are just Bible believing Christians who stand on the Bible & the word of our saviour Jesus. What you have gone into is deep scholarly study so if that is what you want as that is the direction you have gone in we have given you that opportunity, but again you refuse to take that up. So the only way or reason that you may or could have done this for is that you can not totally prove that what you are saying is right, & us again it proves us right & you wrong.

When are you going to realise that you unless you actually take this challenge to prove us all wrong, then you have lost. No matter what you say no matter what you do or how much you shout or what ever verses you try to use out of context may I add to prove your point, unless you shut us all up by taking that challenge then you have lost & the more you go on the way that you are doing & not taking this challenge & trying to use this web site or that web site as proof, the more you are showing others that are following this thread that you are to afraid to even try to prove us all wrong.

That challenge goes out to you & all the others who believe the same as you do, all your post-trib sites who post this wrong teaching on the word. This challenge goes out to you all. It will be the only way that you & all those like you can prove otherwise. so you are now in the position where as you have hobsons choice. You either take this challenge & prove us all wrong or you keep quite about you wrong teaching & hush up. Your chance is there for all to see it is open to all your believers, so come on take us on & take this challenge nothing else will replace it as proof. You can shout & scream but no matter what you do it will not change that facts that the only way you can win this is to take the challenge, if you do not & keep using excuses after excuse & cut & paste & this site & that site the way you are at the moment then you have lost & we have been proven as being correct 100% correct.

The balls in your court, it has always been in your court. We have never changed what we have said all along its you that have twisted this way & that way, but we have stayed steady all the way. We have kept on saying & giving you the chance to prove us all wrong with the same statement. So again its all in your court the only way that you will shut us up is to take this challenge & prove us wrong. But you can not do this because we are not wrong we are 100% correct & the Bible if you read it shows that we are correct.

Oh by the way I do not have any fans I do not want any fans I am not after any kind of acclaim for what I have put down in this post or any other post I am just a Bible believing Christian who loves our Lord & saviour & who stands on the truth of his word. So as I have said in the past not one person who has taken part in this thread other than you & your friends have made any nasty personal remarks about anyone. When you can not win by your bulling you seem to rely on name calling & abuse by making derogatory remarks about others you are trying to debate with. That is not the christian way that is not what any christian does well not the ones I KNOW ANYWAY. I or not one other who has come against you in this thread has ever called you or anyone else, not one person who does not have the same belief as you have made one derogatory remark about any of you, but you & your friends have done that to us. So I say again that just goes to show any other person who may be following this thread what kind of person you & your friends are & also give them some idea as to how you behave & think that a christian should behave. You should be ashamed of your selves if you wish to debate as adults & as true grown up Christians stop this kind of behaviour.

God Bless you all

831

November 16, 2005

I think your about done on verses after I copied verses that proved you wrong. What difference does it make if I copied and pasted? So what if I didn't word them, you need to prove I'm wrong now and you can't do it. It's still scriptures proving you wrong, stop denying it. This is a great post, too bad there isn't any scriptures proven that mine are not right? This whole post is from you getting in your flesh and letting out your anger. I challenge you to prove me wrong and all you can say is why didn't you reword it, either way it would say the same THAT YOUR WRONG. Deep Scholarly study? We are studying the bible if I can understand it and whysoblind can understand, then why can't you. We're not doing Brain Surgery here. After you and your buddies tried making jokes and down talking us, you guys are done and everything from that site proved you were believeing in a made believe Fantasy. Everything I posted I understand, its pretty straight forward and untwisted or did you just not read it?

When are you going to realise that you unless you actually take this challenge to prove us all wrong, then you have lost. No matter what you say no matter what you do or how much you shout or what ever verses you try to use out of context may I add to prove your point, unless you shut us all up by taking that challenge then you have lost & the more you go on the way that you are doing & not taking this challenge & trying to use this web site or that web site as proof, the more you are showing others that are following this thread that you are to afraid to even try to prove us all wrong.

Did the information on the site prove you wrong? Answer=yes. So how did I lose? I didn't it's simple your just mad!

That challenge goes out to you & all the others who believe the same as you do, all your post-trib sites who post this wrong teaching on the word. This challenge goes out to you all. It will be the only way that you & all those like you can prove otherwise. so you are now in the position where as you have hobsons choice. You either take this challenge & prove us all wrong or you keep quite about you wrong teaching & hush up. Your chance is there for all to see it is open to all your believers, so come on take us on & take this challenge nothing else will replace it as proof. You can shout & scream but no matter what you do it will not change that facts that the only way you can win this is to take the challenge, if you do not & keep using excuses after excuse & cut & paste & this site & that site the way you are at the moment then you have lost & we have been proven as being correct 100% correct.

Again trying to justify yourself because I found more than enough information to prove you wrong. Listen to yourself.

The balls in your court, it has always been in your court. We have never changed what we have said all along its you that have twisted this way & that way, but we have stayed steady all the way. We have kept on saying & giving you the chance to prove us all wrong with the same statement. So again its all in your court the only way that you will shut us up is to take this challenge & prove us wrong. But you can not do this because we are not wrong we are 100% correct & the Bible if you read it shows that we are correct.

If I twisted anything, then please untwist it.

This is what you first posted, who is getting angry?:

Hi All.

Hi Justin 62, can I please just say to you rather than coming straight in & making the points you have or claims that you have why do you not just do the study & see if it is right. Then if you have the same problems with it we can then try to sort those problems out. The problem I have is you have just come in & made the remarks you have with out trying to go through the study I have put, I am sure that if you go through this study you will find that it will answer your questions with no problem at all.

Also I would suggest that you try & go to a site called Ariel Ministries that is run by a man a Messianic Jew by the name of Dr Arnold Fruchtenbuam here is the link http://www.ariel.org/ this man is about the best teacher around at the moment, he is known as the teachers teacher, so I ask you first to go through the study that I have given & then to try this site & I am sure that after you have done this you will find that all your questions have been answered & you will also see that the Pre-trib scenario is the truth & is the only one that fits all the facts from the Bible, not one of the other scenario's covers all that is said in the word with regard to the rapture & end times, the only one that does is the one I have mentioned please do the study & go to this site I am sure you will be very happy that you did so .

I never bad mouthed you or anything, you jumped on me and still are. Even more so now that you found out you've been believeing a lie. All I got was agitated with the way you talked to me. You don't know me either or what kind of study I've done. You just start falsely accuseing me.

After all I've done to help you see the facts, Your still confused.

831 Brother (sorry if your a sister, you just sound like a guy), I love you in the Lord and don't want you to get angry with me. That's not what I'm trying to accomplish, its the post-trib arguement I'm aiming for. Obviously I just need to leave this thread, because you keep getting more and more angry, with every post we make and now your really hot headed it seems. God Bless you 831

Old Timer · November 16, 2005

What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?

If such a thing as an irresistible force exists, then no object is immovable, and vice versa.

It is logically impossible to have these two entities (a force that cannot be resisted and an object that cannot be moved by any force) in the same universe.

Not so

November 16, 2005

What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?

If such a thing as an irresistible force exists, then no object is immovable, and vice versa.

It is logically impossible to have these two entities (a force that cannot be resisted and an object that cannot be moved by any force) in the same universe.

Not so

Old Timer · November 16, 2005

What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?

If such a thing as an irresistible force exists, then no object is immovable, and vice versa.

It is logically impossible to have these two entities (a force that cannot be resisted and an object that cannot be moved by any force) in the same universe.

Not so

November 16, 2005

Hi All.

I see that it is discussion ended, as you will not accept that the only way that you can prove us all wrong is to take the challenge you have been given. You have twisted & you have turned you have gone in all directions to avoid taking up this challenge. The facts are that the only way that you can prove us wrong is to take that challenge & then show us that you was correct. You will not take that challenge so no matter what you write no matter what you put no matter what you cut & paste it will not change that fact.

So unless you are willing to take that challenge you have lost. You can say all you like about what you have put verse wise to prove us all wrong, I can put down lots more verses than I have up to now, but I have not. Why because I have given you the chance to prove us all wrong & will you take it NO YOU WILL NOT. So what does that look like to anyone who may be following this thread, it looks as if you do not totally have enough faith in what you believe to take up the challenge.

So I am sorry but to all intents & purposes you have lost. Because you constantly refuse to take the one challenge that will prove us all wrong. It will prove all pre-trib believes wrong, but you will not take it. You come across with all your bravado about just how much you know within scripture but when the crunch comes down to it you are not willing to put that to the test. That comes across so much, so you are just showing yourself up by carrying on with this as you refuse to put your faith to the test & in doing so shut up all pre-trib believers.

I will not be posting anything else with regard to this thread as it is pointless, as I am dealing with a brick & so it is useless to me to argue with a brick as it serves no purpose at all. We have proven our point we have shown through scripture that what we believe is the truth & no matter how much you shout scream holler yell stamp your feet or what ever it does not change that fact, you had your chance to prove us all wrong & so in refusing to do so have proven us right & correct.

God Bless you all

831

November 17, 2005

You guys clearly do not want to believe, so what good is scripture with you all. I'm done here too, I've untwisted your pretrib scriptures to prove theyre not pretrib and now you are trying to prove them wrong because your feelings were hurt. This is going to go on for ever and clearly is pointless, thats the one thing we both agree on. I am really done here and am unscribing from this thread. May God be with you.