Starise Posted February 26 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 13 Topic Count: 279 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 13,129 Content Per Day: 9.64 Reputation: 13,680 Days Won: 149 Joined: 08/26/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 26 25 minutes ago, other one said: The problem is that the people in Gaza voted Hamas as their government I'm not convinced they had a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJK Posted February 26 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,349 Content Per Day: 7.54 Reputation: 1,305 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/01/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26 15 hours ago, Slibhin said: Oh so if it doesn't lay out a specific list then we can just decide for ourselves who is innocent at our convenience. Why do so many evangelical Christians try to lawyer the bible? Every time something is pointed out you guys it's a series of ifs/buts/howevers with caveats that of course result in no change or reassessment of oneself needed. The rest is not related to the topic. I didn't choose anything, G-d chose me. I've already answered the question numerous times. There is no temple and therefore sacrifices are not possible. When the Messiah comes the Torah will be written in people's hearts and want to follow G-d, therefore sacrifices will no longer be required except for thanksgiving. G-d is very clear in the Tanakh that he desires repentance and mercy more then sacrifices and has explicitly said so, and there are many times throughout the Tanakh where people were forgiven without benefit of such. Well, with no standard to use then there is little choice but to pick and choose for ourselves, is there? As a Christian I can look to the Holy Spirit for guidance in my thinking but I don't know if Jews can do that or how they can go about it if they can. You're criticisms of Christians is actually quite valid, I express the same ones myself on occasion. But that is also true of Jews isn't it? After all, do you have any idea how difficult it is to find two Jews that actually agree on the same thing as meaning the same thing? Sometimes it makes my brain hurt trying. Most, or at least many, Christians also believe God chose them and believe the same thing about how Man will be after the coming of the Messiah, the difference being that For Christians this is looking for his second appearance and for Jews (at last the way I understand it) his first appearance. In any event we both look forward to a world ruled by the Messiah. I thank you for posting your response. I truly appreciate it. I'll leave it there for now and look forward to future discussions. May all the people you meet today be a blessing to you and treat you kindly.   Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starise Posted February 26 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 13 Topic Count: 279 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 13,129 Content Per Day: 9.64 Reputation: 13,680 Days Won: 149 Joined: 08/26/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 26 7 hours ago, dad2 said: Yes it is. The old testament was for believers. Israel today are unsaved and rebels. They may not claim that God is with them. I can almost agree with this, however I don't think we can say all Israel is unbelievers. I think we can say the leadership is not Christian so far I am aware. One issue I find and maybe have myself sometimes is defining Israel. It should be easy because we have this land mass I think the Lord opened up for them in 1948. Today though I see Israel as not much different in terms of people than any other nation that's mixed. People sometimes read lots of things into events that happen there and to be honest there are pointers for anyone studying it. God loves all and came to die for all men. Israel plays a prophetic role. There are those who don't think they should be there at all. I believe God put them there, and so the fighting continues ad nauseum for land that some feel was stolen. Look at the US in the early years. They invaded a land mass that was lived in and possessed by others. The influx of immigrants changed the face of the nation. Is happening again as we speak in a much worse way. The difference here as I see it, is that Israel has nation status whether anyone likes it or not, and I think that's largely some of the issue. Many there don't think Israel 'belongs' there at all. Until this last war effort from Hamas, things seemed to be at least workable. They pretty much stirred up the bee hive. How do you see Israel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJK Posted February 26 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,349 Content Per Day: 7.54 Reputation: 1,305 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/01/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26 42 minutes ago, Starise said: How do you see Israel? As the nation through whom the prophecies will be fulfilled, the Messiah will come to redeem all mankind, and the center of God centered spirituality and redemption for a thousand years to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJK Posted February 26 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,349 Content Per Day: 7.54 Reputation: 1,305 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/01/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26 58 minutes ago, Slibhin said: ........ take any information from gaza with a grain of salt unless it's verified by an independent source. Oh I do, but I also try to think in terms of it is consistent with the prevailing attitude I see being expressed by the group it concerns (and I do this about all polls about everything, not just political style polls). FWIW, I worked as a pollster in market research for a while when I was young and I can guarantee you that a poll can very easily be slanted to give results that please the party commissioning it, or even unconsciously affected by the interviewers own biases when conducting a poll in person. It's a human tendency to see what we want to see and make things be what we want them to be (at least in our own mind), and it's a difficult thing to overcome so we can be objective about something without unconscious subjective influences controlling our view. Peace be with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starise Posted February 26 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 13 Topic Count: 279 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 13,129 Content Per Day: 9.64 Reputation: 13,680 Days Won: 149 Joined: 08/26/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 26 46 minutes ago, FJK said: As the nation through whom the prophecies will be fulfilled, the Messiah will come to redeem all mankind, and the center of God centered spirituality and redemption for a thousand years to come. So yes the messiah has already come through Israel, I agree. In order to identify the "Messiah" we need to identify what He isn't. Our prophecies talk about a man sitting on the throne making himself to be god. The 'throne' thought by most to be the holy place in the Jewish temple. If that's how it goes down, then this recent mini war could be lining that up. In that respect the first messiah will not be the real one. I don't identify with the theology that says this has all already happened. Yes there has been similar, but not in that exact way yet. The bible tends to be cyclic in ways while still holding to specifics. Of course due to the way Jesus comes back, there will be no doubt, but MANY will be fooled by the false man and put him on a pedestal first, then later realize their error, or maybe never realize their error until it's too late.. All I know for sure is two things: We are getting closer than ever. Israel is somewhere in the last leg of that time line. It only stands to reason there will be increased resistence the closer we get. I see Israel as having the possibility to be temporarily overthrown. Probably the most important thing is, How does God see Israel? I am prone to think that maybe His ideas on it are different than some with respect to what makes it up and who is a part of it. What Does Jesus think of those caught in the crossfire.   Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJK Posted February 26 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,349 Content Per Day: 7.54 Reputation: 1,305 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/01/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26 51 minutes ago, Starise said: Of course due to the way Jesus comes back, there will be no doubt, but MANY will be fooled by the false man and put him on a pedestal first, then later realize their error, or maybe never realize their error until it's too late.. I strongly suspect that most of those who call themselves Christian (I don't judge who is and is not) will be among those who are deceived by him and actually hate those who refuse to worship him, choosing the easily traveled wide path instead of the difficult narrow one. But I may be wrong, it's just what I think might happen. Hopefully I'll turn out wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dad2 Posted February 26 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,524 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 186 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26 Quote Israel is not doing that.  They have made a safe place to go to and given them protection so they can get there. Not true, as evidenced by the many killed either going to the safe place or while there. Total falsehood. Almost all the infrastructure is destroyed, that says it all. Hospitals attacked and mass arrests and cruel starvation and depriving of basic medical and food and water. How dare anyone try to justify that.  Quote I can be sure that if those people are truly Islamic and following the teachings of Mohammad, there are no innocents. What sort of barbaric nonsense is that, condemning billions to death for their religion?  Quote The People in Gaza need freed from Islam, or they will never be at peace with anyone but themselves. The world needs to be freed and only loving them and giving the Jesus will do that. The monstrous genocide and mass murder being carried out is not 'freeing' anyone from Islam! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel80 Posted February 26 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 96 Content Per Day: 0.83 Reputation: 55 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2024 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26 14 minutes ago, FJK said: I strongly suspect that most of those who call themselves Christian (I don't judge who is and is not) will be among those who are deceived by him and actually hate those who refuse to worship him, choosing the easily traveled wide path instead of the difficult narrow one. But I may be wrong, it's just what I think might happen. Hopefully I'll turn out wrong. I concur.  Somber stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dad2 Posted February 26 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,524 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 186 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26 Quote I can almost agree with this, however I don't think we can say all Israel is unbelievers. I think we can say the leadership is not Christian so far I am aware. Israel is mostly totally unbelievers. The state today is Israel in name only. The constant insinuations they represent God in their murderous terrorism are what makes it worse. The comparison by some to the old testament, and how God used to lead the nation. Quote One issue I find and maybe have myself sometimes is defining Israel. It should be easy because we have this land mass I think the Lord opened up for them in 1948. Today though I see Israel as not much different in terms of people than any other nation that's mixed. People sometimes read lots of things into events that happen there and to be honest there are pointers for anyone studying it. God loves all and came to die for all men. Israel plays a prophetic role. Yes a nation there will be invaded and suffer and be surrounded by armies etc. That is not a GOOD role!! Only when most are dead and they finally get saved will that remnant play the good role once again. Right now the trait the bible mentions of Jerusalem is how spiritually it is also called Sodom. Quote There are those who don't think they should be there at all. I believe God put them there, and so the fighting continues ad nauseum for land that some feel was stolen. I have not seen anyone give bible support that God already restored them and is protecting them etc. That is later. They are there on their own now. They have zero right to land there now. Quote The difference here as I see it, is that Israel has nation status whether anyone likes it or not, and I think that's largely some of the issue. Many there don't think Israel 'belongs' there at all. Whatever status the WORLD bestows on a nation doesn't matter. That nation will not survive to inherit that land. A new nation will be formed from saved people there in the end when those alive repent and accept Jesus. Then they will be Israel, then God will destroy their enemies and make the desert bloom, and bring them from all over etc. Not before.  Quote How do you see Israel? I see real Israel people who accepted Jesus as His people. I see Israel again becoming a nation in a day in the end. When they are saved! Becoming His people and He will be (again) their God. The secular unbelieving nation today will be removed by God effectively. Only a remnant will all be saved. All Israel will be saved one day (though most of them will have already died before that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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