Any hope for the Jews ?

[Fiosh]

So then are you saying babies, and severely retarded people, and severely mentally ill people, who do not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour are all going to hell?

I believe that anyone who has not developed the reasoning capabilities to understand sin, and the ramifications of it, are held guiltless until such time as they are able to understand and consciously make a choice. Therefore, I believe that every baby whether born, still born, or the victim of abortion will be with the Lord. I do not believe based upon God's revelation of His character, that He will allow babies, or those who are born so severely mentally incapacitated, that they never arrive at the place where they can make a choice, to spend eternity in Hell. That is my belief, and I am sure it is not shared by everyone on this board.

It is not as clear in Scripture as some would make it, that's for sure. There are many references to those who "reject" Jesus, and their fate. It is not quite as easy to find Scripture references for those who "never heard". There are a few though, that might give us some insight.

I realize this is an imperfect example, yet it speaks to God's tolerance of lack of knowledge:

Act 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent"

Here, Jesus seems to say there is a relationship between one's ability to understand truth, and one's guilt or innocence in not accepting it.

Jhn 9:41 "Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. "

And another reference to "ignorance"...

1Ti 1:13 "Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief. "

I admit, these are weak comparisons. Yet, they do imply at least some compassion for those who "do not know any better" thru no fault of their own.

Can anyone cite Scripture that specifically speaks of those who never heard of Jesus???

Thanks,

Fiosh

[IslandRose]

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

My understanding of this situation is this: Those who have not heard will be judged according to their response to the light which they have. They do not have the law, but they "do by nature the things contained in the law." In other words, they by nature know the things that God has revealed. "Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another; ) " And yet they violate that law. They are without excuse.

[Fiosh]

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

My understanding of this situation is this: Those who have not heard will be judged according to their response to the light which they have. They do not have the law, but they "do by nature the things contained in the law." In other words, they by nature know the things that God has revealed. "Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another; ) " And yet they violate that law. They are without excuse.

That does seem to be the import of this passage.

Verse 16 is interesting. "God will judge ... BY Jesus.." (my Bible reads "through"). In either case, what do you think that implies?

[IslandRose]

The law was established to show us where we miss the mark. It does not save us. It shows us why we need to be saved. In the same way, the law "written in their hearts" does the same thing. It shows where they miss the mark. I have always believed that if one responded to the light revealed, that God would continue to give light until one found Christ. Trouble is "no man seekest after God."

Christ came and lived the perfect life. He did not sin. He did not miss the mark in any area. When we stand to be judged, it is Christ who will do the judging. Only He is worthy.

[nebula]

It also goes back to the parable of the Wheat and the Tares.

It's not for us to pick and chose and name and decide who goes in and who goes out.

Sure, there are general principles, but in the end, it is the Lord alone who knows the heart.

At what age does God conside one "accountable"? I don't know - I leave that to Him.

Who does the Lord consider as "those oustside the Law to be judged apart from the Law"? Again, I don't know.

It is not for me to make the final decision, so I'm not going to make a fool of myself by trying to make that decision.

I leave it to the Lord.

As for the OP, and the fate of the Jews who have not accepted Jesus as the Messiah?

Again, I leave that to the Lord.

I do what I can to be a witness to the Jews around me. But only God knows their hearts.

I leave their fate in His hands.

[Fiosh]

It also goes back to the parable of the Wheat and the Tares.

It's not for us to pick and chose and name and decide who goes in and who goes out.

Sure, there are general principles, but in the end, it is the Lord alone who knows the heart.

At what age does God conside one "accountable"? I don't know - I leave that to Him.

Who does the Lord consider as "those oustside the Law to be judged apart from the Law"? Again, I don't know.

It is not for me to make the final decision, so I'm not going to make a fool of myself by trying to make that decision.

I leave it to the Lord.

As for the OP, and the fate of the Jews who have not accepted Jesus as the Messiah?

Again, I leave that to the Lord.

I do what I can to be a witness to the Jews around me. But only God knows their hearts.

I leave their fate in His hands.

Of course that is all true. And yet, one aspect of this site is to discuss and search and explore the awesome depths of Truth, in the Person of Jesus Christ......all the while being fully aware that we are not capable of grasping even a fraction of who He is.

Peace,

Fiosh

[Salt]

Rom 11:25-26 GNB There is a secret truth, my friends, which I want you to know, for it will keep you from thinking how wise you are. It is that the stubbornness of the people of Israel is not permanent, but will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to God. (26) And this is how all Israel will be saved. As the scripture says, "The Savior will come from Zion and remove all wickedness from the descendants of Jacob.

The gospel started with 'the jew first', then went for the most part to the gentiles for about 2000 years and will return to the jewish people after "the complete number of Gentiles comes to God".

Edited November 12, 2005 by Salt

[Guest shiloh357]

Rom 11:25-26 GNB There is a secret truth, my friends, which I want you to know, for it will keep you from thinking how wise you are. It is that the stubbornness of the people of Israel is not permanent, but will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to God. (26) And this is how all Israel will be saved. As the scripture says, "The Savior will come from Zion and remove all wickedness from the descendants of Jacob.

The gospel started with 'the jew first', then went for the most part to the gentiles for about 2000 years and will return to the jewish people after "the complete number of Gentiles comes to God".

Actually, more Jews are being saved today, than at any other time during the last 1700 years. It is important to keep in mind, that Jewish rejection of Christ is occuring under an entirely different dynamic than it was in Paul's day.

The historical "Church" for last 1700 years made it virtually impossible for Jewish people to accept Jesus. Jesus, Himself, has never been the problem. I do not believe that it is any coincidence that the establshment of Israel coincides with the increase of Jewish people coming to Messiah. The gospel has already come to the Jewish people. The blinders are beginning to come off.

[penfold]

To read these posts makes for some odd reading.

I dont know how you could have missed the part in the Bible when it talks about the angel who stands in the gap for those people who dont know (due to not hearing the news) or understand (because of age/ disability) when they die.

The angel stands in the gap and the Lord God knows they are covered for and that is that- they go to heaven.

Why have you missed this bit out of your posts- I dont understand?

Jenni

Edited November 12, 2005 by penfold

[TEXASGRANDMA]

I believe all babies that die go to Heaven. I also belive that those who are born without the ability to reason, go to Heaven to. For everyone else after the age of about 12 if they refuse to accept Jesus as their Savior they go to hell. I believe all are given that chance. I think those who have never heard of the Bible are visited by an angel on their death bed and given a choice to choose Jesus or not.

betty