They Speak With Such Authority, Yet Differ Sharply

[Mr. M]

1 minute ago, FreeGrace said:

When one quotes Scripture that is plainly worded (no figures of speech/metaphors)  and straight forward, one is quoting the ultimate authority, the Word of God.  

 

2 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Having been on numerous forums for over 2 decades, I thought everyone who posted were convinced that they were right.

Yes,that is the point.

2 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Along with all this, we need to be doctrinally accurate.

Quoting one scripture, and then saying what it means is NEVER doctrinally accurate, for by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word is established. This provision is routinely ignored, even as they state their position with the boldness of "ultimate authority".

 

[warrior12]

A puzzle with a beautiful picture on box, with the contents full of thousands of pieces of that same objects is facinating to those who love puzzles.  As those who read the parts of the bible that contains things pertating to eschatology, it triggers the investigative part of the human mind.  They devote part of their time to research history and includes studying and reading varied historians, about events recorded in the past. 

This is not for everyone ,as most don't have that deep inquisitive mind  and time to do the necessary research and come back with their thoughts and we might say speculations.  The bible contains the books about events that would take place in the future that are linked to each other in ways that the normal bible reader either ignores or find is too difficult to decipher or interpret.  So, he is at Worthy and reads pages of written words about a topic that intrest him.   He might skim through it or try and look into some that is written to get some kind of understanding as to current events as he look around the state of the world today.

The OP opinion is what is his and we can agree or disagree.  Believers personal spiritual expereinces, which are unique to him in regards to the spirit world , may or would draw  him to hear what others may have to say, just as a bible student or personal wellbeing as to his life in general.  But the OP point is taken and eveyone to his own on how he should view these discussions.

 

Edited March 16 by warrior12

[Mr. M]

22 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

The OP opinion is what is his and we can agree or disagree.  Believers personal spiritual expereinces, which are unique to him in regards to the spirit world , may or would draw  him to hear what others may have to say, just as a bible student or personal wellbeing as to his life in general.  But the OP point is taken and eveyone to his own on how he should view these discussions.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

How does following current events and trying to fit them into an eschatological world view, shaped by varied opinions, fit in here?

John 3:31 He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.

This pertains to wisdom first in our comprehension. Pr 4:7

Colossians 3:

1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 

2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.

We must seek wisdom from above at all times, not from the world around us, which is being constantly distorted by the prince of the age. We are not of this world!

John 8:23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

We have been given clear instructions on this:

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

How many times have I shared what I received by simply asking in child-like faith, and was reviled and mocked because what I received from no man did not align with what others had received in the teaching of men.

I was not trying to contradict anyone, I only found the contradiction in the response. Not an intent to attack or deceive.

How do I know this? They support their position with commentaries, wikinotes, got questions, writings of the early fathers, etc...all fallacies in the burden of proof. 

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

How many times have a cited a scripture that should have immediately called into question someone's "opinion" only to get no response. End of discussion. 

We can fellowship in the Word by the Anointing only with a purpose of heart that is willing to receive from above, and that means correction. Correct a wise person, and he will become wiser, correct a scorner, and be scorned.

Edited March 16 by Mr. M

[FJK]

There are two things I wish every Christian would do and think about.

One is consider the story of the Blind men and the Elephant (actual origin unknown but probably from India, numerous interesting video renditions on YouTube)).

Two is to watch the movie "Vantage Point" (Columbia Pictures, 2008), available for streaming somewhere I'm sure.

Those two activities fitted into your entertainment schedule might go far in improving your attitude toward other viewpoints and give you some new insights on your own.

[Mr. M]

1 minute ago, FJK said:

There are two things I wish every Christian would do and think about.

One is consider the story of the Blind men and the Elephant (actual origin unknown but probably from India, numerous interesting video renditions on YouTube)).

Two is to watch the movie "Vantage Point" (Columbia Pictures, 2008), available for streaming somewhere I'm sure.

Those two activities fitted into your entertainment schedule might go far in improving your attitude toward other viewpoints and give you some new insights on your own.

 

4 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[FreeGrace]

27 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

Quoting one scripture, and then saying what it means is NEVER doctrinally accurate, for by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word is established.

Seems to suggest doctrine by democracy.  There are verses that are quite straightforward and plainly words.  And your view of things leads to a very real problem of how one actually gets to heaven.  Again, there are very clear verses about that.  But those who have different ideas use verses that are vague enough to mean something other than the clearly worded verses teach.

27 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

This provision is routinely ignored, even as they state their position with the boldness of "ultimate authority".

Do you not apply the Berean verification principle to what people say the Scriptures say?  

From what you've said, it seems to me that no one can know what is true.  Even though Scripture says 'by the mouth of 2 of 3 witnesses', sometimes it's hard to find 2 or 3 that even agree, so how is that helpful?

We don't need people to understand Scripture.  We only need to accept the plainly worded (NO figures of speech/metaphors,etc) and straightforward verses to understand truth.  

Otherwise, there is no way to know how to be saved.  People apply a whole lot of verses that teach reward by perseverance, etc but apply them to salvation, etc.  There is very little overall agreement within and among evangelicalism today.  So applying the 'out of the mouths of 2 or 3' isn't helpful.

Rather, we must only use verses that are straightforward and don't use figures of speech/metaphors/etc.  

Then, if other verses that are straight forward refute what is believed regarding a verse, we know that our understanding is flawed.

[FreeGrace]

38 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

But the OP point is taken and eveyone to his own on how he should view these discussions.

Without a doubt!

[FreeGrace]

18 minutes ago, FJK said:

There are two things I wish every Christian would do and think about.

One is consider the story of the Blind men and the Elephant (actual origin unknown but probably from India, numerous interesting video renditions on YouTube)).

Apples to oranges.  All the men were blind and all were at different parts of the elephant.  They were applying what they felt to the whole animal.

The Bible can be understood by what is plainly worded, which means doesn't include figures of speech, metaphors, etc.  Then, everything else needs to line up with the very clear verses.

For example, for those who believe that salvation can be lost, there are NO verses that plainly state that.  And, there are very clearly worded verses that refute the idea.

That's just the way it is.

If everyone applied the Berean verification principle, there would be no divisions.  Wouldn't that be nice?

18 minutes ago, FJK said:

Two is to watch the movie "Vantage Point" (Columbia Pictures, 2008), available for streaming somewhere I'm sure.

Those two activities fitted into your entertainment schedule might go far in improving your attitude toward other viewpoints and give you some new insights on your own.

It's really not about attitude towards others with different viewpoints.  It's about being able to defend what you believe.
From my 20+ years on numerous forums, I've seen many who had different viewpoints than mine, yet were unable to defend their positions.  

[warrior12]

15 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

How many times have I shared what I received by simply asking in child-like faith, and was reviled and mocked because what I received from no man did not align with what others had received in the teaching of men.

I was not trying to contradict anyone, I only found the contradiction in the response. Not an intent to attack or deceive.

How do I know this? They support their position with commentaries, wikinotes, got questions, writings of the early fathers, etc...all fallacies in the burden of proof. 

While your sharing of what you received and were reviled ect, is observed, we also have to remember that we have different levels of maturity with believers.  Some maybe babes drinking milk, while others eating meat and still trying to process the mystryies of the things written about the end times.  

They can do a couple of things, keep the thoughs to themselves, or compare what others have come to so call decode or unravel in their own minds or however .  

The object though, the book or Revelation and others are in the word that we read every day.  The human side of man will always be intrigued by its content and then the pursuit will follow.  He, will have to come to terms, wheather he has gone down the rabbit hole and listen to wise consel or thinks that he has it mostly figured out.

Yes, we have to stay on the straight and narrow path and keep reminding ourselves that we have an enemy that strives to bring choas,discord and confusion.  Each believer though has to find and navigate his way to the celestial city and avoid the pitfalls that is set before him.  

The scripture verses you qutoed are all vaid as to keeping focus on the things above.  The human mind is still curious about the what is written in the biblical books that tells of events to come. 

 

[Mr. M]

5 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Seems to suggest doctrine by democracy.  

Nope, you misunderstood me. The "witnesses" are the scriptures. Support your position on a scripture with other scriptures. Isaiah 8:20 was given as a case in point. I am certainly not saying find other men that agree with you! That is a fallacy, which I also addressed.

8 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

From what you've said, it seems to me that no one can know what is true.  Even though Scripture says 'by the mouth of 2 of 3 witnesses', sometimes it's hard to find 2 or 3 that even agree, so how is that helpful?

Seek and you will find. "It's hard to find". Ask. Be slow to speak. The Holy Spirit always comes through. If you can't find more than one scripture that you are trying to make a doctrinal point from, then that point should be held until the Spirit speaks. Discuss with your brethren beloved in fellowship, and the Anointing teaches. Not an opinion. This I know from experience. To disagree is to lack that experience.

 

11 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Otherwise, there is no way to know how to be saved.  

The topic is not salvation. Nothing is more simple. "look to Me, and be saved". The topic is interpretation of the prophetic based on current events, rather than waiting and watching and praying, so that when you see, you know, and believe. There is no rush to interpret prophecy, for God in not in a hurry. But when He does act, He does so SUDDENLY.

Habakkuk 2

3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time;
But at the end it will speak, and it will not lie.
Though it tarries, wait for it;
Because it will surely come,
It will not tarry.

4 “Behold the proud,
His soul is not upright in him;
But the just shall live by his faith.