They Speak With Such Authority, Yet Differ Sharply

[RdJ]

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Edited March 16 by RdJ

[warrior12]

On 3/14/2024 at 10:46 AM, Mr. M said:

All I am saying, and that those who participate take extra caution, for "we are not to be ignorant of his devices".

Thomas Brooks wrote an excellent book on satan devices titled 

"Precious Remedies Against Satan Devices ".

written in the 1600, it can be downloaded in pdf format and others from the net. 

An excerpt from  part of the introduction of the book below.

IX. By presenting to the soul the crosses, losses, sorrows and sufferings that daily attend those who walk in the ways of holiness: For remedies, consider that
1) all afflictions suffered by Christians turn to their profit
2) all such afflictions only reach their worst, not their best, part
3) all such afflictions are short and momentary
4) all such afflictions proceed from God's dearest love
5) it is our duty and glory to measure afflictions not by the smart but by the end
6) God's design in saints' afflictions is to try, not to ruin, their souls
7) the afflictions, wrath and misery consequent upon wickedness are far worse than those linked with holiness

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

FreeGrace said: 

Seems to suggest doctrine by democracy. 

Nope, you misunderstood me.

Sorry about that.

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

The "witnesses" are the scriptures. Support your position on a scripture with other scriptures.

I do that with verses that aren't crystal clear and straightforward.  And when I have verses that ARE crystal clear and straightforward, I use them to explain the verses that aren't.  :)

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

Isaiah 8:20 was given as a case in point. I am certainly not saying find other men that agree with you! That is a fallacy, which I also addressed.

Sorry I missed that.  I agree.

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

Seek and you will find. "It's hard to find". Ask. Be slow to speak. The Holy Spirit always comes through.

ABsolultely!

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

If you can't find more than one scripture that you are trying to make a doctrinal point from, then that point should be held until the Spirit speaks. Discuss with your brethren beloved in fellowship, and the Anointing teaches. Not an opinion. This I know from experience. To disagree is to lack that experience.

Very biblical!

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

The topic is not salvation. Nothing is more simple. "look to Me, and be saved".

But as I pointed out, there are many views among evangelicals about how to get to heaven, unfortunately.  I agree that salvation is quite simple.  And clear.

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

The topic is interpretation of the prophetic based on current events, rather than waiting and watching and praying, so that when you see, you know, and believe. There is no rush to interpret prophecy, for God in not in a hurry. But when He does act, He does so SUDDENLY.

I've come to the view that much of the figurative language and metaphors in the OT prophecies will only be actually understood WHEN they come to pass.  Then it will be clear.

My first post was about the "pretribulation rapture" view.  The verses I quoted are clear enough to understand that Jesus comes back only once more, and all believers will be resurrected at the same time, which is "when He comes".

The visions of Daniel, and prophecies in the OT weren't meant for everyone throughout the ages to understand, since none of it applies to anyone but those who will live through it.  

iow, we'll know it when we see it.

[Marathoner]

On 3/10/2024 at 9:41 AM, Mr. M said:

Every time I read through threads in the Prophecy/Eschatology forum, the members seem to express themselves with total authority, as if what they are saying is factual, rather than speculation. And yet they differ sharply point by point of view.

This is true, brother. In my experience, this isn't unique to forums. However, forums make this stand out all the more.
 

On 3/10/2024 at 9:41 AM, Mr. M said:

As a witness, what I often see is men and women following current events and trying to fit them into prophetic fulfillment. 

Is this appropriate? Is this a mandate of Christ?

Certainly not. We know those commandments which our Lord has spoken to us all --- love one another as He loves us and love our neighbor as ourselves --- which is part of how we keep His word. 

What you describe is indicative of an obsession that has run rampant over the past 200 years or so. I've taken to calling this obsession "end times mania." The obsession consumes the afflicted to the degree that their theology is defined by this eschatological addiction. It's always the end of the world, this and that is always a sure sign that the end is near, and far too many have falsely predicted the return of Christ under the power of these delusions. In spite of this, devotees of end times mania continue perpetrating what is properly recognized as an error of antiquity. 
 

On 3/10/2024 at 9:41 AM, Mr. M said:

Is this occupying until He comes or an endless distraction from the Lord's Great Commission?

It's a distraction of this flesh. How do we know that this obsession is a weakness of the flesh? It's accompanied by the deeds of the flesh as described by the apostle Paul:

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21 NASB)

I have underlined the relevant deeds of the flesh involved in "end times mania" in the passage above.

[Dennis1209]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

When one quotes Scripture that is plainly worded (no figures of speech/metaphors)  and straight forward, one is quoting the ultimate authority, the Word of God.  

If you don't claim that your views are correct, are you admitting or maybe just comfortable with the possibility of being wrong??

Having been on numerous forums for over 2 decades, I thought everyone who posted were convinced that they were right.

Along with all this, we need to be doctrinally accurate.  The best way is to apply what the Bereans did with Paul's preaching, which I call the verification method, from Acts 17:11 - Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true.

What I have found from over 20 years of forums, is that people make claims from Scripture that the Scripture doesn't clearly state.  So, they are assuming from the verses used.  

The verses I quoted in my previous post are all very plainly worded and straight forward.  There are no verses that speak of Jesus taking any resurrected believers to heaven.  

To apply what you've said here to the doctrine of salvation, we have a great problem.  If we can't believe what the plainly stated straight forward verses say, then how would anyone know how to be saved, or even if they themselves are saved??

 

The Topic: Every time I read through threads in the Prophecy/Eschatology forum, the members seem to express themselves with total authority, as if what they are saying is factual, rather than speculation. And yet they differ sharply point by point of view.

The Claim: If you don't claim that your views are correct, are you admitting or maybe just comfortable with the possibility of being wrong??

Having been on numerous forums for over 2 decades, I thought everyone who posted were convinced that they were right.

The Answer: Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit. (Proverbs 26:5)

The topic and my address is not about Salvation. In my defense of the accusations, I practice hermeneutic hygiene, a.k.a. being a Berean. I present a view of what I think is Biblically correct. I highlight and take pains not to take my word for anything but study it for yourself (a Berean).

A conviction is a personal belief, not necessarily the correct exegesis. Submit any of your convictions or things you are convinced of, and I will reply with two or more different views by godly men, theologians, scholars, and men with initials behind their names that disagree with you.

I take it as you go from the milk of the word to the meat, you never learned anything that changed your view or conviction. I am not puffed up or arrogant enough to claim to be a know-it-all. Love, growth, learning, and change are continual processes.

 

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

The topic and my address is not about Salvation.

I used the doctrine of salvation as an example.

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

In my defense of the accusations, I practice hermeneutic hygiene, a.k.a. being a Berean.

And I mentioned what I call the "Berean verification method", which is what the citizens of Berea did when Paul came a-preachin'.  Acts 17:11.  They compared what Paul SAID with what the Scripture SAID.  

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

I present a view of what I think is Biblically correct. I highlight and take pains not to take my word for anything but study it for yourself (a Berean).

Actually, the Bereans compared what Paul said about Scripture with what Scripture said.  That's how to know who is correct in their views.

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

A conviction is a personal belief, not necessarily the correct exegesis.

Very true.

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Submit any of your convictions or things you are convinced of, and I will reply with two or more different views by godly men, theologians, scholars, and men with initials behind their names that disagree with you.

For sure.  However, with those who disagree with my conviction, I ask to provide clear and unambiguous verses that refute my conviction about what a verse SAYS.

And in every case, they can't.  It's that simple.

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

I take it as you go from the milk of the word to the meat, you never learned anything that changed your view or conviction.

Oh, I've changed my mind (repented) on a number of things over the years.  But I finally came face to face with Acts 17:11, and started to apply it to what others say (their convictions).  So when I discuss a doctrine/teaching with those who disagree with me, I have clear Scripture that says what I say, or like the Bereans, I SAY what the Bible SAYS.

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

I am not puffed up or arrogant enough to claim to be a know-it-all. Love, growth, learning, and change are continual processes.

I certainly don't know everything.  But what I DO know comes from very clear, unambiguous, plainly stated and straightforward verses, so I know that what I SAY is what the Bible SAYS.  And that is foolproof.

Otherwise, the Holy Spirit wouldn't have had Dr Luke write Acts 17:11.

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 3/10/2024 at 9:41 AM, Mr. M said:

Every time I read through threads in the Prophecy/Eschatology forum, the members seem to express themselves with total authority, as if what they are saying is factual, rather than speculation. And yet they differ sharply point by point of view.

As a witness, what I often see is men and women following current events and trying to fit them into prophetic fulfillment. 

Is this appropriate? Is this a mandate of Christ?

Is this occupying until He comes or an endless distraction from the Lord's Great Commission?

I don't see any reason why it's wrong to say with certainty what scripture says about the end times. Is it wrong to say with certainty that Jesus WILL return? Or that the world will suffer a horrible tribulation period? Or that all the dead, good and bad will be judged? 

 

I DON'T agree with trying to fit modern day events into Bible prophecy. When I was a new believer I watched Jack Van Impe, and he did that all the time. As I matured I realized he was REALLY stretching most of the time to try to fit things where they didn't belong, so I won't watch him anymore. 

 

There's nothing wrong with being certain about things we know are certain, BUT we must be very careful not to try to make the Bible say things it never meant to say. 

[Mr. M]

44 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Is it wrong to say with certainty that Jesus WILL return? Or that the world will suffer a horrible tribulation period? Or that all the dead, good and bad will be judged? 

Of course not

44 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I DON'T agree with trying to fit modern day events into Bible prophecy. When I was a new believer I watched Jack Van Impe, and he did that all the time. As I matured I realized he was REALLY stretching most of the time to try to fit things where they didn't belong, so I won't watch him anymore. 

That is the OP 

45 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

There's nothing wrong with being certain about things we know are certain, BUT we must be very careful not to try to make the Bible say things it never meant to say. 

Amen

[Marathoner]

1 hour ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I don't see any reason why it's wrong to say with certainty what scripture says about the end times. Is it wrong to say with certainty that Jesus WILL return? Or that the world will suffer a horrible tribulation period? Or that all the dead, good and bad will be judged? 

What we read above represents an excellent opportunity to explore how we all might foster differing interpretations regarding specific matters relating to eschatology, but how those differences aren't worthy of strife, division, denunciation, nor outbursts of anger.

This is one of those rare circumstances where I will share some of my eschatological views; in this case, the identity of the dead who shall be resurrected and judged by the Son of God at the end of all things.

We are not dead, my friends... not by any means. We whose lives are hidden in Jesus Christ, and who keep His word, will never taste death (John 8:51). Our place is not with the dead for the Lord is God of the living, not the dead (Mark 12:27). 

We who were once dead in our trespasses have been raised in newness of life in the Spirit with Jesus Christ, and so we are a new creation in the Son of God (2 Corinthians 5:17). We are not dead, nor are we numbered among the dead by the Lord.

Do I assert these things with authority? No. I share scripture with confidence but so far as my view is concerned, it can change. Indeed, my understanding has changed greatly over time. I learned how to hold my opinions lightly, but to treat you all with great care. My brothers and sisters are more valuable in my estimation. I will be held accountable for how I treat you by the Lord.

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

Indeed, my understanding has changed greatly over time. I learned how to hold my opinions lightly, but to treat you all with great care. My brothers and sisters are more valuable in my estimation. I will be held accountable for how I treat you by the Lord.

Amen. I agree 100%. There is no reason to get upset over differences of opinion. Paul even mentioned liberty in disagreeing. There is room for different opinions and these should never lead us into conflict with our brothers.