10 Steps to the End of this Age & Ushering in His Kingdom

[Vine Abider]

7 hours ago, AnOrangeCat said:

I'm actually curious about this one. I've heard of the concept before but it's not one I've looked into very deeply. Is this something you'd be able to elaborate on in another thread maybe?

We had quite the thread going on this over a year ago (actually  may have been a couple threads) - I can see if I find them if you'd like. But the basics are this: many argue incessantly for either pre or post trib rapture, and some also for mid trib.  I subscribe to the notion that there are some merits for all these in scripture, therefore multiple, partial raptures.  There have been God's people who have been caught away at various points, so I don't understand why Christians insist on dogmatically staking claim to just one rapture at the end.

To me, we are all saved equally, and He puts His Spirit of life into us to make us children.  Therefore we are all on equal footing in that regards - saved by grace period.  But then there is the matter of how we grow and what we do with this grace and life we've been given.  The Bema Seat judgement will address this and differentiate between God's children.  So why should the rapture idea be any different, that is, ones taken up according to how well they have allowed the seed of life in them to grow?

Much more could be said, but after some digging I found this thread I started in December 2022.  (FYI - there were over 90 pages to this thread and it was closed by George, but if you read a few of the beginning pages I think you'll get the idea.)

 

 

[Dennis1209]

9 hours ago, AnOrangeCat said:

I'm actually curious about this one. I've heard of the concept before but it's not one I've looked into very deeply. Is this something you'd be able to elaborate on in another thread maybe?

I am very interested in partial rapture theories. Mentioning my leanings or beliefs would be of no benefit. The rapture has three main views: who goes, when, and why. It is a lengthy topic of discussion.

I have checked the writings of anti-Nicene fathers on multiple and partial raptures and have found none. These doctrines became prominent among scholars and theologians in the 19^th century. As well as the influx of many versions and translations of the Bible.

Systematic Theology by Ryrie, Grudem, Strong, and Boyce has a wealth of information on partial raptures and the rest of theology. One of these books will significantly enhance the understanding of the majority views.

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

I have checked the writings of anti-Nicene fathers on multiple and partial raptures and have found none. These doctrines became prominent among scholars and theologians in the 19^th century. As well as the influx of many versions and translations of the Bible.

I don't know much about what the anti-Nicene church fathers held regarding the rapture(s) . . . and I would defer to @AdHoc regarding any teachings from back then about multiple/partial reapings.   And even if no church father source for the idea comes from that period, I would maintain that this, in and of itself, certainly does not negate the idea.

I do agree that much of the partial rapture teaching did get promulgated by 19th century authors.  Here's something from Wikipedia in an article on "Rapture" subsection "Partial pre-tribulation premillennialism":  As stated by Ira David (a proponent of this view): “The saints will be raptured  in groups during the tribulation as they are prepared to go.”[98] Some notable proponents of this theory are G. H. Lang, Robert Chapman, G. H. Pember, Robert Govett, D. M. Panton, Watchman Nee, Ira E. David, J. A. Seiss, Hudson Taylor, Anthony Norris Groves, John Wilkinson, G. Campbell Morgan, Otto Stockmayer and Rev. J. W. (Chip) White Jr.  Found here  - an interesting read on the whole matter of the rapture:                                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture 

I am familiar with a number of these authors and many were in the 19th century.

If anyone is interested, here is a website I found today that promotes Partial Rapture Theory (PRT): https://www.bible-prophecy.co/partial-rapture-theory/  I have just started to look through it, so I can't vouch for its veracity.  UPDATE:  Just realized this website is by an author whose book I have on my shelf:  "The Partial Rapture and the Left Behind Church" by Paul Shoenbarger

[Vine Abider]

Let me just say that, as interesting as it is, much further discussion of the rapture should probably be done in a separate thread, as the topic has the propensity to take off!

[Dennis1209]

14 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I don't know much about what the anti-Nicene church fathers held regarding the rapture(s) . . . and I would defer to @AdHoc regarding any teachings from back then about multiple/partial reapings.   And even if no church father source for the idea comes from that period, I would maintain that this, in and of itself, certainly does not negate the idea.

I do agree that much of the partial rapture teaching did get promulgated by 19th century authors.  Here's something from Wikipedia in an article on "Rapture" subsection "Partial pre-tribulation premillennialism":  As stated by Ira David (a proponent of this view): “The saints will be raptured  in groups during the tribulation as they are prepared to go.”[98] Some notable proponents of this theory are G. H. Lang, Robert Chapman, G. H. Pember, Robert Govett, D. M. Panton, Watchman Nee, Ira E. David, J. A. Seiss, Hudson Taylor, Anthony Norris Groves, John Wilkinson, G. Campbell Morgan, Otto Stockmayer and Rev. J. W. (Chip) White Jr.  Found here  - an interesting read on the whole matter of the rapture:                                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture 

I am familiar with a number of these authors and many were in the 19th century.

If anyone is interested, here is a website I found today that promotes Partial Rapture Theory (PRT): https://www.bible-prophecy.co/partial-rapture-theory/  I have just started to look through it, so I can't vouch for its veracity.  UPDATE:  Just realized this website is by an author whose book I have on my shelf:  "The Partial Rapture and the Left Behind Church" by Paul Shoenbarger

To coin an old secular adage, “The closer to the bone, the sweeter the meat.” The closer we get to the source material and references, the more detail and accuracy.

My point is:

1 Thes. 4: ¹⁵For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: ¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ¹⁸ Wherefore ^lcomfort one another with these words. [emphasis mine]

On scripture: I am not dogmatic, but I see nowhere in scripture that teaches a partial rapture. How could we comfort one another knowing some of our beloved brethren and loved ones missed the church age (age of Grace) Rapture and Resurrection? It seems the pronoun WE is all-encompassing and all-inclusive.

I mentioned the early so-called church fathers. Polycarp was a personal friend and disciple of John the Revelator, studying under John, not to mention Irenaeus under Polycarp and all the other so-called Ante-Nicene fathers. None of them knew what is spouted today as partial raptures.

Short of reverifying, I do not recall any Reformation leaders of the sixteenth century mentioning partial raptures. This doctrinal introduction is a product of the 19^th century, which is very late in Biblical terms.

It is not to say there will only be one rapture and one glorification. I believe those Tribulation martyrs (and ourselves) will return with Christ at His 2^nd coming, then having their glorified bodies.

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Revelation 6:11)

The final resurrection is the Great White Throne judgment, where those not written in the Lamb’s Book of Life are bodily resurrected, condemned, and join the Antichrist and False Prophet in the Lake of Fire.

I also would like @AdHoc to chime in. I consistently learn from you both, getting alternate views and thoughts.

[seeking the lost]

On 4/23/2024 at 12:59 PM, Vine Abider said:

3.    First-fruits (early rapture) are taken directly to God’s throne somewhere in first 3.5 years of the treaty.

Before the rapture, there must be a resurrection.  Do you think it is OK to add a resurrection to facilitate your views?  The first resurrection is not until the end of the tribulation  

[Vine Abider]

3 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Let me just say that, as interesting as it is, much further discussion of the rapture should probably be done in a separate thread, as the topic has the propensity to take off!

@Dennis1209 @seeking the lost @AnOrangeCat @AdHoc  I've started a new thread here on this topic, so as not to derail this one completely: 

 

[WilliamL]

On 4/23/2024 at 11:59 AM, Vine Abider said:

Below is something I've been playing with (and mentioned it in another thread).  I see an opportunity to share with unsaved about things occurring toward the end of this age, so that there might be an opening for the Good News.  For believers, the end of the age is about His Kingdom being manifested, but to unsaved, this is "the end of the world."  To us the apocalypse means the wonderful, full unveiling of Christ and the sons of God; but to unbelievers it is something full of dreadful fear.  The Lord can use that fear for the entrance of His Word!

So the 10 steps below are a very basic conveying of my thoughts on what is, and will soon occur, concerning Jerusalem and the middle east.  It is, of course, according to my own theology and my understanding of prophesy.  For nonbelievers I would want to keep it real simple, and might just share points #1 and #2, and perhaps #4, 6-7.  For instance, I probably wouldn't get much into matters concerning the raptures (I believe in multiple, partial raptures). 

And I know that believers might have varying views and opinions about some of these events (especially the raptures & manchild), but my purpose in conveying these is in hope that we may see a clear way to present simple, end of the age prophesies to the unsaved, as a means for the gospel.

My basic Understanding of Prophetic Last Week (7 years) of this Age as an Abbreviated Outline:

 1.    The background - Israel returned in 1948 to become a nation again, after 2,000 years of dispersal throughout the world. This is unprecedented in history. 

2.    Soon, serious conflict in the middle east/Israel will have the whole world greatly disturbed. A charismatic leader arises to power who makes a grand 7 year treaty with Israel and her enemies – great peace and prosperity takes place in the world (but also many disturbing/destructive natural calamities occur). This is the beginning of the final 7 years.

3.    First-fruits (early rapture) are taken directly to God’s throne somewhere in first 3.5 years of the treaty.

Next items happen in rapid succession mid-way through the final week (3.5 years from treaty enactment):

4.    Charismatic leader dealt death blow

5.    Manchild taken to heaven - Satan is cast down to earth

6.    Dead leader comes back to life supernaturally

7.    Leader breaks treaty 3.5 years after signing it & desecrates the Jerusalem temple, setting himself up as God there

8.    Final 3.5 years start – supernatural calamities upon the whole earth - two witnesses appear

Toward the end of last 3.5 years (end of 7 year week):

9.    Large armies gather to middle east – battle of Armageddon

10.   Christ returns to defeat armies and antichrist, and to set up His kingdom on the earth

The problem I see with this list is that is mostly a personal interpretation of Bible prophecy, not Biblical prophecy itself. And when events take a different course, and they will, then any potential converts will likely be turned away from the faith.

Best to stick with the literal prophecies themselves, what they actually say, not what you think they mean. There are plenty of quite specific ones that need no elaboration or explanation, my favorite being Daniel 11:40 - 12:3, which covers most of the essentials of "the time of the end."

[Vine Abider]

6 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

The problem I see with this list is that is mostly a personal interpretation of Bible prophecy, not Biblical prophecy itself. And when events take a different course, and they will, then any potential converts will likely be turned away from the faith.

Best to stick with the literal prophecies themselves, what they actually say, not what you think they mean. There are plenty of quite specific ones that need no elaboration or explanation, my favorite being Daniel 11:40 - 12:3, which covers most of the essentials of "the time of the end."

Interesting, and thanks for directly addressing this!  So I believe I have scriptures for each of these things (a condensed, simpler version of events quoted from an earlier post): "Give a little background on Israel becoming a nation again, and that things there will reach a potentially very catastrophic level, but a charismatic leader will arise to make a 7 year treaty.  And even though peace and good times appear to rule the day after the treaty, the lid will seriously come off in 3.5 years, and then before too long, the Lord will return to subdue the dire situation and set up His kingdom --> therefore sinner, turn to Him and be saved!"

[WilliamL]

9 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Interesting, and thanks for directly addressing this!  So I believe I have scriptures for each of these things (a condensed, simpler version of events quoted from an earlier post): "Give a little background on Israel becoming a nation again, and that things there will reach a potentially very catastrophic level, but a charismatic leader will arise to make a 7 year treaty.  And even though peace and good times appear to rule the day after the treaty, the lid will seriously come off in 3.5 years, and then before too long, the Lord will return to subdue the dire situation and set up His kingdom --> therefore sinner, turn to Him and be saved!"

Sorry, but I believe that everything above, after the words "things there will reach a potentially very catastrophic level," is pure spec that will never come to pass. So I repeat what I said in my previous post: avoid such speculative interpretations of the prophecies.