Guys stop trying to identify the antichrist

[Progressive Truth]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Sorry, I have no understanding  of Revelation and cannot comment on this... but, if you are, as millions have done, try to bring these interpretations back into Daniel, I can assure you, they cannot not be found in Daniel. Which brings me back to the earlier comment. Daniel must be interpreted first and then that understanding will help interpret Revelation. They will not conflict with each other but so many have used Revelation to interpret Daniel.

"Daniel must be interpreted first and then that understanding will help interpret Revelation. They will not conflict with each other" Charlie, that portion of your comment is the absolutely truth. Neither book can be clearly understood until one understands them both because Dan., lays the foundation for which follows in Rev., after the messages to the seven churches. 

Which is why, "so many have used Revelation to interpret Daniel." Which you don't agree with, and therefore, you are having difficulty understanding Dan. 

I would like to comment on how you interpret Dan., "from Daniels perspective." This is not correct. Sorry for being so blunt. The prophecies are of God, Daniel only reveals in his words what was shown him in vision. Example, Dan. 2, very little of that vision had to do with the King of Babylon, the rest would be well past his time, clear down to Christ return. So if Daniel had not interpreted the dream for him, and you were asked to interpret the dream using your method your interpretation most likely would have been contemporary. Not correct. 

Consider this. At the time Daniel was given the prophecy concerning the seventy weeks of Dan. 9, which was 500 years before John  wrote Rev., Daniel was setting in the White House in Babylon. He was taken captive during Jerusalem's first seize by Babylon. During the second seize Ezekiel was taken captive and was made a laborer. During the time of Daniels and Ezekiels captivity Jeremiah remained back in Jerusalem with the remaining Israelites until the final seize, in which he fled into Egypt. 

 God was revealing prophecies to all three during much of the same time. Those prophecies to Ezekiel and Jeremiah had too do with why Israel had been sent into Babylon captivity and that it would only last seventy years. To He informed them too return to Jerusalem and rebuild the city and temple complex. He would give them the seventy weeks of Dan., 9, 490 yrs., too do this and it would be their last probationary opportunity to comply with Him and anoint the messiah, and offer Him upon the alter as the Lamb of God. If they would do this as a nation, Jesus would have set up His temporary earthly kingdom as John the baptist had proclaimed. However, as you know Israel did not except Christ as the messiah. Therefore, Christ rejected the nation of Israel, and redefined Israel not by blood but because of their faith, "Whosoever will." So all the promise made to Israel will never be fulfilled because they did not hold up their side of the covenant. 

Now the prophecies given to Daniel are apocalyptic meaning they have to do with the whole world not the nation of Israel. (This plan covers Israel redefined) Had Israel complied with the prophecies given to Ezekiel and Jeremiah, then God would have sealed up Daniel's prophecies, meaning they would have never come to pass. But as we know Israel failed,  so we are operating under the prophecies of Daniel, which again are apocalyptic in size not local to the nation of Israel. 

This is why your method of interpreting Daniel is out of step with reality. Sorry but don't know how to make it any simpler. 

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Progressive Truth said:

"Daniel must be interpreted first and then that understanding will help interpret Revelation. They will not conflict with each other" Charlie, that portion of your comment is the absolutely truth. Neither book can be clearly understood until one understands them both because Dan., lays the foundation for which follows in Rev., after the messages to the seven churches. 

Which is why, "so many have used Revelation to interpret Daniel." Which you don't agree with, and therefore, you are having difficulty understanding Dan. 

I would like to comment on how you interpret Dan., "from Daniels perspective." This is not correct. Sorry for being so blunt. The prophecies are of God, Daniel only reveals in his words what was shown him in vision. Example, Dan. 2, very little of that vision had to do with the King of Babylon, the rest would be well past his time, clear down to Christ return. So if Daniel had not interpreted the dream for him, and you were asked to interpret the dream using your method your interpretation most likely would have been contemporary. Not correct. 

Consider this. At the time Daniel was given the prophecy concerning the seventy weeks of Dan. 9, which was 500 years before John  wrote Rev., Daniel was setting in the White House in Babylon. He was taken captive during Jerusalem's first seize by Babylon. During the second seize Ezekiel was taken captive and was made a laborer. During the time of Daniels and Ezekiels captivity Jeremiah remained back in Jerusalem with the remaining Israelites until the final seize, in which he fled into Egypt. 

 God was revealing prophecies to all three during much of the same time. Those prophecies to Ezekiel and Jeremiah had too do with why Israel had been sent into Babylon captivity and that it would only last seventy years. To He informed them too return to Jerusalem and rebuild the city and temple complex. He would give them the seventy weeks of Dan., 9, 490 yrs., too do this and it would be their last probationary opportunity to comply with Him and anoint the messiah, and offer Him upon the alter as the Lamb of God. If they would do this as a nation, Jesus would have set up His temporary earthly kingdom as John the baptist had proclaimed. However, as you know Israel did not except Christ as the messiah. Therefore, Christ rejected the nation of Israel, and redefined Israel not by blood but because of their faith, "Whosoever will." So all the promise made to Israel will never be fulfilled because they did not hold up their side of the covenant. 

Now the prophecies given to Daniel are apocalyptic meaning they have to do with the whole world not the nation of Israel. (This plan covers Israel redefined) Had Israel complied with the prophecies given to Ezekiel and Jeremiah, then God would have sealed up Daniel's prophecies, meaning they would have never come to pass. But as we know Israel failed,  so we are operating under the prophecies of Daniel, which again are apocalyptic in size not local to the nation of Israel. 

This is why your method of interpreting Daniel is out of step with reality. Sorry but don't know how to make it any simpler. 

I just wrote a decent response to your comments and then the internet went out and I lost it all... I will rewrite it later on... depressed. 

[Charlie744]

16 hours ago, Progressive Truth said:

"Daniel must be interpreted first and then that understanding will help interpret Revelation. They will not conflict with each other" Charlie, that portion of your comment is the absolutely truth. Neither book can be clearly understood until one understands them both because Dan., lays the foundation for which follows in Rev., after the messages to the seven churches. 

Just so you know, I have not studied Revelation and I know nothing about it. I think I might know something about Daniel....  

I think I mentioned to you that my approach to studying Daniel was as if I was Jew in the early 1st century. The ONLY source documents I would have access to and would study would be the Tankh and of course Daniel. I certainly would not consider taking a look at any Gentile history books that may have been around at that time. In other words, God had indeed given His people all the information with His Scriptures to understand and interpret Daniel. Daniel will interpret Daniel quite well if we were to follow this approach.

I would suggest that almost everyone who attempts to interpret Daniel will be more than comfortable using our history books and the Book of Revelation to determine many of the most important verses in Daniel. These would be the verses that are most difficult and seemingly impossible to interpret. 

But Daniel is not a history book and Revelation should not be considered in studying Daniel. Daniel must be interpreted on its own and then carry those interpretations forward to Revelation. But the Jews before the coming of the Lord on the first day of the 70th week of years prophecy would have access to the Tanakh (obviously includes Daniel) to read, study and interpret.  And that is exactly what we should do.

 

16 hours ago, Progressive Truth said:

Which is why, "so many have used Revelation to interpret Daniel." Which you don't agree with, and therefore, you are having difficulty understanding Dan. 

 

I don't understand this comment since you agreed Daniel should be studied before Revelation. I must be missing something here, but it is all good.

16 hours ago, Progressive Truth said:

 

I would like to comment on how you interpret Dan., "from Daniels perspective." This is not correct. Sorry for being so blunt. The prophecies are of God, Daniel only reveals in his words what was shown him in vision.

 

Totally agree. The only time that Daniel would add anything to what he saw or was told by either God or Gabriel was in Chapter 5. Everything else did not come from within Daniel.

16 hours ago, Progressive Truth said:

Example, Dan. 2, very little of that vision had to do with the King of Babylon, the rest would be well past his time, clear down to Christ return. So if Daniel had not interpreted the dream for him, and you were asked to interpret the dream using your method your interpretation most likely would have been contemporary. Not correct. 

 

No, I am not tyring to interpret Daniel as if I was sitting at the same table as Nebuchadnezzar. I am sitting with the other Jews studying Daniel before the first coming of the Messiah.  That would be my "contempory" view because Daniel was written of three different audiences.

1) Daniel can and in my opinion can be carved into 3 time periods: 

       a) Time of exile in 606 BC to 539 BC. This is the 70 years on exile in Babylon.

       b) From 457 BC to 33/34 AD. This is dominated by the 70 weeks of years prophecy. It will be completed exactly 3.5 years after the cross.

       c) From 33/34 AD to His second coming. This period covers the beginning of His church, the 10 horns, the little horn, and all the events that would take place until His second coming. (but God does not go into details after the little horn comes to full power (approximately  500 AD to the end. Of course, Chapter 7 and 8 offer more than enough details on what this little horn will do for those 1500 years).

Consequently, the Book of Daniel is more than adequate to provide all the necessary information for each of the 3 audiences. Obviously, the Jews were given all the prophetic, historical information for them to read, study and interpret the coming of their Messiah in the last week of the prophecy.  They  did not need history books or Revelation or any other source document to see how God was going to restore His people and His city and the messianic prophecies within Daniel in time for His arrival. And of course, the entire Book of Daniel is written for all those who would come after the cross (but once again, we do not need to bring in any extrabiblical source records to unpack Daniel.... in fact, this is one of the major reasons why Daniel has yet to be properly interpreted - we are looking to find our interpretations to our history books. They are not there!

16 hours ago, Progressive Truth said:

 

Consider this. At the time Daniel was given the prophecy concerning the seventy weeks of Dan. 9, which was 500 years before John  wrote Rev., Daniel was setting in the White House in Babylon. He was taken captive during Jerusalem's first seize by Babylon. During the second seize Ezekiel was taken captive and was made a laborer. During the time of Daniels and Ezekiels captivity Jeremiah remained back in Jerusalem with the remaining Israelites until the final seize, in which he fled into Egypt. 

 God was revealing prophecies to all three during much of the same time. Those prophecies to Ezekiel and Jeremiah had too do with why Israel had been sent into Babylon captivity and that it would only last seventy years. To He informed them too return to Jerusalem and rebuild the city and temple complex. He would give them the seventy weeks of Dan., 9, 490 yrs., too do this and it would be their last probationary opportunity to comply with Him and anoint the messiah, and offer Him upon the alter as the Lamb of God. If they would do this as a nation, Jesus would have set up His temporary earthly kingdom as John the baptist had proclaimed. However, as you know Israel did not except Christ as the messiah. Therefore, Christ rejected the nation of Israel, and redefined Israel not by blood but because of their faith, "Whosoever will." So all the promise made to Israel will never be fulfilled because they did not hold up their side of the covenant. 

 

I am sorry but the end of your comments here is so wrong. First, everything that happened from the time of the exile to the cross happened exactly as it was suppose to happen. This was God's plan from the foundation of the world. The Jews had studied the Tanakh and Daniel and were expecting their Messiah to arrive. However, this is where God purposefully and partially blinded their eyes so they would not recognize their Messiah. This was His doing, not theirs. The Jews had absolutely no choice in the matter. There was not ONE Jew who believed He as their Messiah - not ONE. It was only after His resurrection would we find Jews that would accept Him as their Messiah. Even Paul, who was a Pharisee among Pharisee would recognize Him and only until He had his Damascus experience. This was God's plan from the beginning. 

I am not sure what you mean when you say that Israel was redefined not by blood but by faith. The Jews or Israel were never defined by blood. It was always by their faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Each of the 3 patriachs exhibited their amazing faith in God. Abraham was not a Jew, Isaac was not a Jew and Jacob was the father of 12 ... they were not chosen because of their blood or had a special relationship  with them because of the "Jewish" blood, it was always about faith in the one true God.

And regarding the promises of God statement. Once again, and this is so important, God certainly knew the Jews would reject Him and He would be crucified. This was His plan from the beginning of the world. They will always be His "chosen" people even until the end of time. Everytime God made a covenant with man it was man who could not keep his end of the agreement. Everytime. The Jews were no different - human nature but God will always keep His promises. At the end of the time of the Gentiles, God will remove their blindness from their eyes and they will recognize the One they have pierced. They will mourn in sackcloth and go out into the world preaching the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus just as Paul had done after his Damascus experience. So, they will no longer be made "desolate" as it is told in Chapter 9. 

16 hours ago, Progressive Truth said:

 

Now the prophecies given to Daniel are apocalyptic meaning they have to do with the whole world not the nation of Israel. (This plan covers Israel redefined) Had Israel complied with the prophecies given to Ezekiel and Jeremiah, then God would have sealed up Daniel's prophecies, meaning they would have never come to pass. But as we know Israel failed,  so we are operating under the prophecies of Daniel, which again are apocalyptic in size not local to the nation of Israel. 

I am sure I am not understanding this the way you might have meant it to say. But I will comment on it as I think what it says. The rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the verses in Daniel are to be sorted into two relevant time periods - those that pretain to the time of the Messiah, and those that are end times or apocalyptic. As mentioned above, there are 3 audiences to the Book of Daniel and whether there is no event within Daniel that would determine how we should view them - God has already revealed His plan and He knew exactly what was going to happen... meaning, the prophecies within the 70 weeks of years, the visions and dreams found within Daniel would happen and would be interpreted as He has decided. His prophecies or the way we should or might have interpreted them were not dependent on whether the Jews rejected Him or not.... I believe it is entirely wrong to suggest that we should identify whether a verse or prophecy in Daniel falls into a time period that belongs around the time of the Messiah or is an end time prophecy, based on whether the Jews rejected Him or not.  

 

16 hours ago, Progressive Truth said:

 

This is why your method of interpreting Daniel is out of step with reality. Sorry but don't know how to make it any simpler. 

 

I have spent the last 5 years studying Daniel and my interpretations are completely different than "today's accepted interpretations," even though there is absolutely no consensus among the scholars, academics or theologians - NONE. And I understand why they believe what they believe - when they attempt to interpret the verses in Daniel because there are many verses that neither camp (preterist or futurist) have addressed. They are simply too difficult. I don't mine your ending statement, after all, I am the very least one who would be found studying Daniel or any book in the Scriptures. But this is what I found myself doing and nothing else for these five years. I don't know how I got here. It has been the most intense and difficult task that I have ever been though. It was at least 100 times more difficult and impossible to unpack and interpret than any business case or issue during my career.  In fact, I laugh outloud when I compare them to the study of Daniel.

Getting back to Daniel;

Almost all of Daniel takes place from 606 BC to the time the little horn gains full power in around 500 AD. The majority of events/ prophecies, etc., occur within the 70 weeks of years prophecy. This period is God's prophecies to restore His people and His city back after the Babylonian destruction and exile. This prophecy will take His people from the decree of Cyrus to allow them to return home to the coming of the Messiah in the last week of the prophecy. This, obviously, is the most important prophecy and time in the history of man - and it is so because God would literally arrive on the earth. With the exception of revealing the physical destruction of the city and the sanctuary in the "destructive" verses in Chapter 9 and that He would make "desolate" His relationship with His people for the next 2000 years (their rejection of Him), all of Chapter 9 is about the arrival, His death, and His God given mission (9:24). All of it is neatly wrapped in the last 7 years of the prophecy.

 

I look forward to hearing from you. And, although you did not mention what prophecies had "turned" from one that "would have" or "might have" been relevant to the time of the Messiah to an "end time" prophecy (apocalyptic) prophecy (depending on whether the Jews accepted or rejected Him), the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy is all about the Messiah during the last week of the prophecy. That was always meant to be interpreted and attributed to Jesus, not to a series of secular events from 457 to 1844. The Sanctuary was indeed cleansed by the only One who could possibly cleanse it - the Messiah. The purpose of Stephan was not to identify the end of the last week or the final 3.5 years of the prophecy. His God given mission was so much more important that serving as a time marker closing out the last week. He was specifically given the role to tell all the Pharisees and Jews (after the cross) that Jesus was the Son of Man, and the "Just One" who  they crucified. And just before they stoned him to death, God would allow him to see Jesus standing at the right hand of God." This was his mission, and this was our confirmation that the sacrifice of Jesus was accepted by His Father in heaven. The heavenly Sanctuary was cleansed....."It is finished."

 

 

[Diamond]

On 7/24/2024 at 6:28 PM, RealReligionofPeace said:

Have you ever heard a Christian claim that some famous particular political figure is the antichrist? I know you do. But Literally they are all wrong.

What part of the word MANY do you have trouble understanding?  "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour." 1John2:18

[Diamond]

On 8/17/2024 at 2:06 PM, Charlie744 said:

I certainly would not consider taking a look at any Gentile history books that may have been around at that time.

Bishop Ussher did not seem to have a problem with that Ussher’s work is notable for its detailed attempt to date events in the Bible, including those in the Book of Daniel, by cross-referencing historical records and biblical texts².

What part of Ussher's book do you have a problem with? Where do you disagree with him?  

[Charlie744]

8 hours ago, Diamond said:

Bishop Ussher did not seem to have a problem with that Ussher’s work is notable for its detailed attempt to date events in the Bible, including those in the Book of Daniel, by cross-referencing historical records and biblical texts².

What part of Ussher's book do you have a problem with? Where do you disagree with him?  

Have not read it. Not interested in a reconciliation between our flawed history books and His Word. 
 

Certainly, we travel from Adam to today through the many kingdoms and nations that are also found in our history books, but Scripture does interpret Scripture. 
 

I believe using extra-biblical sources (in Daniel) has created so many misinterpretations. Daniel is such a difficult book to unpack and folks look to our history books to try and match up or find historical actors or events that might fit those difficult verses in Daniel. And it then becomes the go to method in finding comfort in their interpretations. The perfect example is Chapter 11 where interpreters contend just how accurate it is to our actual historical events found in the post-Alexander period - despite needing to go out some 150 years to a relatively nobody like AE. 
 

But Chapter 11 has nothing that do with the Ptolemy’s, the Seleucid’s or AE. It is largely discussing the 4th kingdom of Rome. 
 

Daniel is not a history book. God will identify the “structure” of the 4 kingdoms and period of time where His people will travel through. He will incorporate His prophetic messages within these kingdoms and time periods. The kingdoms, their kings and conflicts are not the story as so many of “today’s accepted interpretations” suggest. The story is His plan of restoration and salvation through these 4 kingdoms and culminates with the coming Messiah in the last week of the Chapter 9 prophecy. 
 

God has indeed given us all the information within Daniel to identify the 4 kingdoms, their kings and how / when each will conquer the other. And He weaves His prophetic word through them - and in the latter chapters, we will find less and less need to turn to our history books because they speak of His plan of salvation that is not found in our history books. 

 

[christsavedme]

On 7/25/2024 at 12:28 AM, RealReligionofPeace said:

Have you ever heard a Christian claim that some famous particular political figure is the antichrist? I know you do. But Literally they are all wrong. The bible clearly says the son of perdition(if he exists) is currently a nobody who will overnight gain immense political power:

Daniel 7:8 "While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully."

clearly this "little horn" despite appearing out of nowhere, became so powerful that he uprooted 3 other horns. This scratches all these people:

Donald Trump

Elon Musk

or literally anyone else, from the antichrist list.

It's not the first time. Ronald Wilson Reagan(6 letters each name, thus 6 6 6) has been called the antichrist, but he clearly was not the antichrist because he lost power and died from Alzheimer's, he never even ruled the world.

Requirements for Jesus to return:

* The mass conversion of Israel to Christianity: Matthew 23:29

* The Requirement that the gospel must be preached to all the nations: Mark 13:7-10 which says: "

⁷ When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. ⁸ Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

⁹ “You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. ¹⁰ And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.

"

However, there are still many  as 1000-200 uncontacted tribes(such as the north Sentinel island people -Whom we don't even know the language of) that have never heard the gospel. We need to outreach these people. John Allen Chau bravely tried to evangelize to the north Sentinelese and died in the process - not even coming close to achieving the goal.

Simply enough, this world is not ready yet for the end times or the tribulation.

The human mind often seeks certainty in uncertain times, leading us to speculate about who might be the antichrist or when the end times will come. But Scriptures often speak in symbols and metaphors, inviting us to delve deeper into their meaning. For example, Daniel’s vision of the “little horn” is a call for introspection rather than a search for external figures. It pushes us to reflect on the forces within our hearts and societies that boast and seek to uproot what is true and good.

Instead of focusing on decoding prophecies, we should turn our attention to the teachings of Jesus Christ. He calls us to love one another, to serve the poor and marginalized, and to spread the Good News through our actions and words. The return of Christ is not just a checklist of events but a transformative journey for humanity.

The uncontacted tribes you mentioned are our brothers and sisters, even if they have not yet heard the Gospel. Our approach must be one of respect, compassion, and patience. The tragic story of John Allen Chau reminds us of the complexities and dangers in this mission, highlighting the need for understanding and sincere love in our outreach efforts.

Let us not be anxious about the end times but rather focus on living out Christ’s message every day. In doing so, we contribute to a world where faith, love, and hope prevail. God’s timing is perfect, and He will provide the means to reach all His children in due course.

[missmuffet]

When the Antichrist takes action in this world many will be deceived. If anyone criticizes this person people will say " Why would you criticize such a wonderful person"?. They will be in denial. Some will eventually start feeling the negative aspects of this man. Perhaps it will be some of the people who called themselves a Christian and didn't make it into the 7 year tribulation. Maybe that is what will get them on their knees and truly come to Jesus Christ and become a Tribulation Saint.