Bottomless Pit

[RV_Wizard]

22 hours ago, tatwo said:

Interesting...I don't think I agree...simply because "eternal" means without beginning and without end.

Perhaps the better word, then, would be "everlasting."

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, Diamond said:

They say because people sin in their body they have to be judged with their body. 

And they will.  Unbelievers will get to physically die twice.  And then unbelievers will experience torment day and night for ever and ever in the lake of fire.

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, Diamond said:

We all know that God is absolute and perfect Justice. His scales are perfectly balanced.

Correct.

13 hours ago, Diamond said:

But for me it does not seem just that people would be torment for eternity for whatever they did in their temporal life.

So then, do you not believe what Rev 20:10 says?

13 hours ago, Diamond said:

But we know whatever happens God is a God of absolute justice and nothing will happen to anyone that they do not deserve. Even an argument can be made that people will judge themselves. 

No, I don't think an argument can be made for the idea that people will judge themselves.  Who would punish themselves?  Not many.

Because God is perfect, and His Justice is perfect, those who will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever" in the lake of fire, will be getting perfect justice.

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, tatwo said:

Their physical body will pass away...the spirit goes back to God from which it came...and the soul to judgment and damnation or if we are referencing those "saved" they join their spirits and continue on in eternal life in Christ...there is more...but all of this comes from Scripture.

Every physical body will be resurrected as the Bible says.  Unbelievers back into their resurrected and still mortal bodies to appear before the GWT judgment for determination of just how 'tolerable' it will be for them in the lake of fire, as Jesus mentioned several times in the gospels.

Believers receive a resurrected and immortal body and then appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10) to receive reward or not during their temporal life, and then reign with/ or serve the King during the Millennial reign on earth.

11 hours ago, tatwo said:

Really...you believe that the Scripture teaches that a "new heavens and new earth" which are yet to be created and have their beginning...are a "resurrected originally created Heavens and earth?" ...verses...a "new heavens and a new earth" as is stated. Isaiah 65 and 2nd Peter 3...

Where did you get that? Can you show us?

Rev 21:1

11 hours ago, tatwo said:

Really...Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Meaning that before He put creation in place...it did not physically exist...however He...the Creator did.

Yes.  What ever is created has a beginning.

11 hours ago, tatwo said:

Later as I pointed out the Lord said "the heavens and the earth will perish" in 3 of the 4 Gospels and at one place in Matthew 5 the Lord says "until the heavens and the earth pass away." That's pretty much Scripture as I see it...it does not seem incredibly difficult to see these things FreeGrace...you just missed them perhaps?

I haven't missed a thing.  Every body will "pass away", YET every body WILL BE resurrected.  So, what's the difficulty?  Maybe you have missed something.  

11 hours ago, tatwo said:

Someone needs to look into what it means when the Creator says "death" or "perish" or "pass away" or maybe what the "lake of fire" actually is in regards to His creation?"

I've already done that.  In the OT "death of soul" or just "death" generally refers to physical death.  Remember, Adam died twice "on the day" he ate the forbidden fruit.  That's from the literal Hebrew, but every English translation failed to catch it.

11 hours ago, tatwo said:

I am not suggesting that you should have known that...but now you do. 

One scan through human history should reasonably tell one that once anything in creation has served it's purpose...it's exterminated...gone...no longer here...and for the simple fact that it all has a "beginning...it cannot be eternal."

Don't get so wrapped up on the word "eternal".  Translators use both "everlasting" and "eternal" for the same Greek word.  I think everyone knows that only God has no beginning.  But every angel and human being which have a beginning will NOT HAVE an ending.  Saved people will live with God forever.  Unsaved people will be tormented day and night for ever and ever in the lake of fire.

11 hours ago, tatwo said:

Nothing left to learn here concerning eternity...is that what your telling us?

Sure.  Until we actually enter eternity.  The Bible has given us everything we need to know for now.

11 hours ago, tatwo said:

Of course..."forever and ever" but they are not eternal because they have a "beginning" that which is eternal has no beginning. I know they don't teach these Truths in church...I was there for over 20 years.

So, "was there", huh?  That means you no longer attend any church??

11 hours ago, tatwo said:

Eternal means..."has no beginning...therefore it has no end" Before "the heavens and the earth" were created..."God was"...creation was brought forth from eternity Himself for His purposes. Eternity and creation are markedly different.

Already explained and answered.  Let's move on.  Don't forget that the Bible tells us that believers possess ETERNAL LIFE.  John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, Rom 6:23.

11 hours ago, tatwo said:

At some point you you might want to look into all of this further...to realize FreeGrace...that there is a fundamental difference between that which is "eternal" and that which is "created"...if it really matters?

No, it doesn't really matter because most people fully understand that only God has no beginning and every created being does have a beginning.

But, so what?  Most translators use "ETERNAL life" for what Jesus gives those who believe.  Of course it means everlasting.  

11 hours ago, tatwo said:

Something that was created and is tormented "forever and ever" had it's beginning...in your reference it is those destructive sinful elements of creation that is "tormented forever and ever"...eternal life and death are mutually exclusive. Everything that is cast in to lake of fire was created...nothing eternal can enter into the "lake of fire."

Where do you get your opinions from?  Such as "nothing eternal can enter into the LOF?  The Bible itself SAYS that unbelievers and the devil and his angels WILL BE CAST into the LOF.  All of them have a beginning and yet will be in the LOF.  So your opinion has no biblical support.

11 hours ago, tatwo said:

That which is eternal...simply cannot die...come on...after all that study over 25 years FreeGrace...you knew that. When that which is created dies...because of sin...the wages of sin being death...that death is defined as separated from the eternal presence of the Living God.

OK, I'm done with 'eternal' vs 'everlasting'.  It's no big deal.

11 hours ago, tatwo said:

If you simply want to continue this "going nowhere" discussion...I must bow out now. If you are interested in what it means to have "eternal life in Christ" that is a worthwhile conversation. I agree you need to stick with what you believe...we all do...and then judgment.

Tatwo...:)

Maybe I already have bowed out.  I'm tired of trying to convince you that 'eternal' and 'everlasting' are synonymous for created beings.  All have a beginning, none will have an ending.

Do you believe in annihilationism?

[FreeGrace]

12 hours ago, tatwo said:

They won't be tormented for eternity...its "forever and ever" which is a judgment for that which was created...who had a "beginning." Those you speak of "the tormented" never had eternal life to begin with so they only have one option...death forever and ever.

Tatwo...:)

Be careful here in trying to "explain" Scripture.  John uses "for ever and ever" many times throughout Revelation in describing God.  None of us has any right to try to force any other meaning to the phrase.

He certainly didn't mean "for a specified period of time" when he wrote Rev 20:10.

Not taking Rev 20:10 literally as written is ignoring the obvious.

btw, Matt 25:46 speaks of "eternal condemnation".

New International Version
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

New Living Translation
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”

English Standard Version
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Berean Standard Bible
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Berean Literal Bible
And these will go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous into eternal life."

King James Bible
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

New King James Version
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

New American Standard Bible
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

Audio    Crossref    Comment    Greek  Verse  (Click for Chapter) New International Version “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” New Living Translation “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.” English Standard Version And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Berean Standard Bible And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Berean Literal Bible And these will go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous into eternal life." King James Bible And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. New King James Version And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” New American Standard Bible These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” NASB 1995 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” NASB 1977  “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Legacy Standard Bible  And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Amplified Bible Then these [unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.” Christian Standard Bible “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Holman Christian Standard Bible “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”  American Standard Version And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life. Aramaic Bible in Plain English And these will go into eternal torture, and the righteous into eternal life.”  International Standard Version These people will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life." Literal Standard Version And these will go away into continuous punishment, but the righteous into continuous life.” Majority Standard Bible And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” New American Bible And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” NET Bible And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."  New Revised Standard Version And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” New Heart English Bible These will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life." Webster's Bible Translation And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Real clear to me. btw, the words "death for ever and ever" has no real meaning.  Once death, there is NO MORE consciousness.  Therefore that phrase has no useful meaning. consider Matt 25:46.  The punishment is 'eternal' 'everlasting' 'continuous' 'eternal torture'. Real hard to get around.

[Diamond]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

So then, do you not believe what Rev 20:10 says?

That verse talks about the devil, the beast and the false prophet. I understand that to  be the devil and the angels that followed him. Revelation 12:7–9 describes a war in heaven between Michael and Satan, which results in Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and down to Earth:

Who are you saying the beast and false prophet are. Or would you rather find a scripture that more clearly refers to people?  

Perhaps you mean Revelation 14:10 9And a third angel followed them, calling out in a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66 24 when He talks about this. "For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an object of contempt to all mankind.”

This is a reference to the 1000 year reign of Christ. At the end of the 1,000 years the unbelievers will be resurrected then they will be judged and then they will be thrown into the lake of fire that is the second death. 

I do not know what the second death is. I believe what is of God returns to God and anything that is not of God is destroyed. I can not imagine that God would allow any unGodliness anywhere in His creation. 

Many people share similar beliefs about the nature of God and the concept of the second death. In various religious traditions, there is a common theme that what is pure and of God returns to Him, while what is not is ultimately destroyed or separated from Him.

There are four or five passages that talk about Hell and 52 that talk about complete or utter destruction. Strong's Hebrew: 2763. חָרַם (charam) — 52 Occurrences 18 more in Strong's Greek: 684. ἀπώλεια (apóleia) — 18 Occurrences

622. apollumi

[Diamond]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

an argument can be made for the idea that people will judge themselves.  

1. Lamentations 3:40: "Let us examine and probe our ways, And let us return to the Lord"¹.
2. 1 Corinthians 11:28: "But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup"¹.
3. 2 Corinthians 13:5: "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?"¹.

These verses emphasize the importance of self-reflection and aligning one’s actions with faith and values.

[FreeGrace]

35 minutes ago, Diamond said:

  FreeGrace said:

So then, do you not believe what Rev 20:10 says?

That verse talks about the devil, the beast and the false prophet. I understand that to  be the devil and the angels that followed him. Revelation 12:7–9 describes a war in heaven between Michael and Satan, which results in Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and down to Earth:

Then you think the beast and false prophet are angels?

35 minutes ago, Diamond said:

Who are you saying the beast and false prophet are. Or would you rather find a scripture that more clearly refers to people?

Let me introduce you to Revelation 13, which describes both the beast and false prophet.  Read all of the chapter as well as ch 19 where the beast and false prophet are captured and "thrown alive into the LOF".

Here are some clear verses on the subject:

20:3 - One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.

20:4  People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”  Where does the Bible say that Satan (dragon) gives authority to fallen angels?  No where.  Nor can angels be injured and then healed.

2:7 - It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.  This is the one world ruler during the Tribulation.

13:12 - It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.

13:16 - It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,

13:17 - so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

The Greeks assigned numerical values to the letters of their alphabet.  So v.17 is the way to verify the name of the ruler of the world.

19:19 - Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.

19:20But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

These 2 verses clearly indicate the beast and FP are men.  And there are 2 of them.

35 minutes ago, Diamond said:

  Perhaps you mean Revelation 14:10 9And a third angel followed them, calling out in a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66 24 when He talks about this. "For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an object of contempt to all mankind.”

Jesus was speaking about everlasting punishment, just as He was in Matt 25:46.

35 minutes ago, Diamond said:

This is a reference to the 1000 year reign of Christ. At the end of the 1,000 years the unbelievers will be resurrected then they will be judged and then they will be thrown into the lake of fire that is the second death. 

I do not know what the second death is.

Should be rather clear.  Since all unbelievers will be in their mortal resurrected bodies again when evaluated at the GWT judgment, when they will be cast into the LOF, their mortal bodies will simply DIE AGAIN.  And the Bible plainly equates the LOF with the second death.

Rev 20:14 - Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Rev 21:8b - they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

35 minutes ago, Diamond said:

I believe what is of God returns to God and anything that is not of God is destroyed.

There is no evidence at all that God will destroy souls.  Rather, they will be "eternally punished" per Jesus' own words in Matt 25:46.

35 minutes ago, Diamond said:

I can not imagine that God would allow any unGodliness anywhere in His creation.

He has allowed much unGodliness throughout the earth.

35 minutes ago, Diamond said:

 Many people share similar beliefs about the nature of God and the concept of the second death. In various religious traditions, there is a common theme that what is pure and of God returns to Him, while what is not is ultimately destroyed or separated from Him.

I'll stay with what the Bible says.

35 minutes ago, Diamond said:

There are four or five passages that talk about Hell and 52 that talk about complete or utter destruction. Strong's Hebrew: 2763. חָרַם (charam) — 52 Occurrences 18 more in Strong's Greek: 684. ἀπώλεια (apóleia) — 18 Occurrences

622. apollumi

All that refers to the physical body of unbelievers.  It gets to die TWICE.  

The LOF is a place of "eternal punishment" per Jesus in Matt 25:46.  If a soul is destroyed, meaning ceases to exist, then the punishment ceases when the conscious ceases.  That would contradict what Jesus said in Matt 25:46.

[FreeGrace]

37 minutes ago, Diamond said:

1. Lamentations 3:40: "Let us examine and probe our ways, And let us return to the Lord"¹.
2. 1 Corinthians 11:28: "But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup"¹.
3. 2 Corinthians 13:5: "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?"¹.

These verses emphasize the importance of self-reflection and aligning one’s actions with faith and values.

Just note the 2 words at the beginning:  "let us..."  That isn't a statement of fact but an encouragement to do so.  You made the statement as if everyone will.  Many will not do that.

If everyone or every believer DOES do that, then why the commands to do so?

[Diamond]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 You made the statement as if everyone will.

When the people are thrown into the lake of fire it was the people of God who say He is Just and True. So you are right about that. I was not paying attention to who was saying God is Just and True. 

Revelation 15 3 "And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints."

Revelation 16 7 And I heard the altar respond: “Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments.”

God is a God of Justice. That is why Jesus went to Calvary. He took the bullet for us because of the Joy set before Him. 

Hebrews 12 2 "For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God"