Hear the Gospel. Believe the Gospel. Then what?

[Mr. M]

6 minutes ago, tatwo said:

Not really Mr. M..."salvation" is the beginning of our spiritual life...the "central issue" is growing up and being "formed" in Christ likeness. 

Tatwo...:)

Sure, and more to the point of the OP.

I was addressing a concern raised that I felt was off topic,

as I have stated.

 

[Mr. M]

2 minutes ago, other one said:

Good answer to "what's next"?

Go out and tell others!

no more living among "the tombs".

As this is a mandate of the elect, then obeying is in order.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb

and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

[Mr. M]

 

8 minutes ago, Knowledge Wrestler said:

Obedience to the Gospel is do good deeds. See, it isn't coherent.

It is as coherent as Paul's testimony. 

"Do good deeds" was not stated by me, is vague at best,

and undermines the coherence you seek.

The issue is God's Will. Not a self-determined 'good deed'.

Acts 26:

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 

20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout

all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent,

turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

One has repented (a conviction more than a 'command', but a necessity).

Confession of faith has been made. After receiving the promised Holy Spirit, go live it.

15 minutes ago, Knowledge Wrestler said:

There is no command in your gospel.

Christ taught that the greatest command is Shemah=listen and obey.

"Repent and believe the Gospel" follows a true desire to know Him.

Have you really obeyed a command when you repent, or received Grace?

25 minutes ago, Knowledge Wrestler said:

Therefore, we don't know what we have to be obedient to.

We?

It is called the apostolic doctrine. 

Our obedience is to Christ, and includes His Body, 

the elders of the Church. This is "what is next".

30 minutes ago, Knowledge Wrestler said:

Secondly, the same gospel was announced to Abraham, and to the Exodus group. What was the command there? And how did they obey?

Jeremiah 7:

22 For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. 

23 But this is what I commanded them, saying, 

‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people.

And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’

As to obedience, they obeyed the Torah, until they turned back to idols, etc...

Joshua 24:31 Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua,

and all the days of the elders who outlived Joshua,

who had known all the works of the Lord which He had done for Israel.

[Knowledge Wrestler]

So what did Abraham and Joshua hear, that needed to be obeyed? Which also was the same good news we hear?

 

Heb 4

2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

 

What they heard was definitely not "Jesus is our salvation".

 

 

Edited August 10, 2024 by Knowledge Wrestler

[Mr. M]

49 minutes ago, Knowledge Wrestler said:

So what did Abraham and Joshua hear, that needed to be obeyed? Which also was the same good news we hear?

 

Heb 4

2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

 

What they heard was definitely not "Jesus is our salvation".

 

 

Hebrews 4 addresses Israel, and what came after, not Abram or Joshua,

who walked with the Lord always. Coherent?

What they heard is that the Lord is their salvation.

The Gospel states "Jesus is Lord". Coherent?

https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=Lord+salvation&t=NKJV#s=s_primary_0_1

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2024 by Mr. M

[Knowledge Wrestler]

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

Hebrews 4 addresses Israel, and what came after, not Abram or Joshua,

who walked with the Lord always. Coherent?

What they heard is that the Lord is their salvation.

The Gospel states "Jesus is Lord". Coherent?

https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=Lord+salvation&t=NKJV#s=s_primary_0_1

 

 

 

Joshua was part of Israel.

And the text says Israel heard the same gospel we did.

So what Israel heard isn't "Jesus is our salvation". See? Incoherent.

As for support, Jesus did good works. He healed a blind man. He fed thousands with a few fish. These are His good works. Are we supposed to do these good works?

See, your support from Scripture is lacking.

[Knowledge Wrestler]

Actually, I don't blame anyone for not understanding Scripture correctly. The problems in understanding are so great that we literally need divine help. 

 

That's because the distance with reference to geographical distance and historical time are so great that we lose the special meanings some words had in those contexts. 

 

Normally, we can find meanings of words in dictionaries, with different references. Diagnosis means something in medical contexts, and something else in, say, economics. The dictionaries list the different contexts, but sometimes the list is too short. We may not have reference usage for quantum mechanics, for example. We would have to go to vocabulary lists for quantum mechanics in special documents called lexicons.

 

So what do we do for Scripture written in Second Temple Jerusalem where we don't have lexicon from that time? We look for the context in documents written in that time period. Here is an article written by my discussion partner on another website:

 

Quote

The Meaning of Faith

Perhaps the single greatest issue of theology in the present day is our understanding of “faith”. I will argue here that “loyalty” is the best translation of it and that, as such, it is totally inseparable from works and essentially means the same thing.

 

Outside of the Bible, what is the Greek word for faith (pistis) used to mean? We're in luck... the first century Jewish historian Josephus uses it in his writings.

 

In his autobiography, Jospehus describes a time when he was the leader of a small army, and another group had tried to kill him. Josephus captures the enemy leader and says to him “repent and have faith in me hereafter” (Life 110). What Josephus clearly means by this is “become part of my army, and obey my commands.”

 

Later he speaks of a city that had turned against him, which after he has forced them into submission again, he rebukes them for revolting “from their faith in me” (Life 167). Again, he's speaking of their loyalty to him.

 

What exactly is the quality that Josephus is getting at? Think about his usage of the word in an army and the concept of soldiers following their leader. What is the relationship between a soldier and their commanding officer like? The solider is loyal and trusting, he follows his superiors' commands, when the captain leads the charge into battle the soldier is right there behind him following in his footsteps. The concept is one of “followingness”, obedience to orders, loyalty, faithfulness, allegiance etc. English is really missing a word to describe this quality of a soldier... the quality of “followingness”.

 

From article on theogeek blogspot dot com

...

 

Bottomline, when Jesus says "Believe in Me", He isn't saying "Believe I am your Saviour". It means, "Come out of the world, serving the world. Serve me instead".

 

In the next few posts, I will show coherence, and strong support, for my view.

Edited August 10, 2024 by Knowledge Wrestler
Spelling

[Knowledge Wrestler]

Abram came out of serving the world (left his father's house) and wasn't saved. He suffered at the hands of King Abhimelek and Pharoah. 

 

The Israelites came out of serving the world (came out of Egypt) and were not saved. They suffered hunger and thirst in the wilderness. 

 

What is happening here? What did they hear that motivated them to switch loyalty? What did it have to do with the preceding narrative, from Genesis 1:1 onwards? 

 

See, we can't separate the Gospel from the existing narrative, it needs to have continuity in order to be coherent. 

 

Let's consider this. 

 

Gardeners love to see growth, so they set up gardens so that plants, and their flowers, and their fruit appear. 

 

Similarly, God loves to see righteousness, and righteousness can't be created: it would be artificial if anyone tried it. If I create a machine that helps the underprivileged by giving out free food, is it manifesting righteousness? No. It's just doing what it's supposed to do. I can't reckon its act as righteous, or praise it for being righteous. It would give free food even to the privileged, which isn't really a righteous, charitable, act. 

 

So when God created the world, it was declared good for nurturing righteousness. 

 

This is the schema. 

 

Adam would be righteous by not eating from the forbidden fruit. 

 

He would be able to see God, stand in His presence, climb His Holy Mountain. 

 

In turn, he would be able to do things that a person could do that are only possible if God was with that person. 

 

In turn, he would be able to subdue the earth. 

 

In turn, he would earn rewards that wouldn't rust or perish. 

 

… 

 

See, God had the set up that can nurture, or facilitate the manifestation  or growth, of righteousness. As long as the earth is being subdued, we know that the Righteousness Garden is functioning properly. 

 

Now everything comes to a halt when Adam ate from the forbidden fruit. Humanity can no longer stand in God's presence, do things that are possible only if God was with him. 

 

So whatever the gospel is, it promises to restore Adam's privileged position. 

 

However, Hebrews 11.39 says no one who was faithful ever received what was promised. 

 

Now look at this passage:

 

John 3

      1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

. ..

 

Please reflect on these posts while I take a break. I welcome constructive criticism, even pointing out the weaknesses, if any immediately visible.

Edited August 10, 2024 by Knowledge Wrestler

[Mr. M]

26 minutes ago, Knowledge Wrestler said:

Actually, I don't blame anyone for not understanding Scripture correctly. The problems in understanding are so great that we literally need divine help. 

 

That's because the distance with reference to geographical distance and historical time are so great that we lose the special meanings some words had in those contexts. 

 

Normally, we can find meanings of words in dictionaries, with different references. Diagnosis means something in medical contexts, and something else in, say, economics. The dictionaries list the different contexts, but sometimes the list is too short. We may not have reference usage for quantum mechanics, for example. We would have to go to vocabulary lists for quantum mechanics in special documents called lexicons.

 

So what do we do for Scripture written in Second Temple Jerusalem where we don't have lexicon from that time? We look for the context in documents written in that time period. Here is an article written by my discussion partner on another website:

 

Quote

The Meaning of Faith

Perhaps the single greatest issue of theology in the present day is our understanding of “faith”. I will argue here that “loyalty” is the best translation of it and that, as such, it is totally inseparable from works and essentially means the same thing.

 

Outside of the Bible, what is the Greek word for faith (pistis) used to mean? We're in luck... the first century Jewish historian Josephus uses it in his writings.

 

In his autobiography, Jospehus describes a time when he was the leader of a small army, and another group had tried to kill him. Josephus captures the enemy leader and says to him “repent and have faith in me hereafter” (Life 110). What Josephus clearly means by this is “become part of my army, and obey my commands.”

 

Later he speaks of a city that had turned against him, which after he has forced them into submission again, he rebukes them for revolting “from their faith in me” (Life 167). Again, he's speaking of their loyalty to him.

 

What exactly is the quality that Josephus is getting at? Think about his usage of the word in an army and the concept of soldiers following their leader. What is the relationship between a soldier and their commanding officer like? The solider is loyal and trusting, he follows his superiors' commands, when the captain leads the charge into battle the soldier is right there behind him following in his footsteps. The concept is one of “followingness”, obedience to orders, loyalty, faithfulness, allegiance etc. English is really missing a word to describe this quality of a soldier... the quality of “followingness”.

 

From article on theogeek blogspot dot com

...

 

Bottomline, when Jesus says "Believe in Me", He isn't saying "Believe I am your Saviour". It means, "Come out of the world, serving the world. Serve me instead".

 

In the next few posts, I will show coherence, and strong support, for my view.

Please post this in your on thread,

and use it to show your coherence there, and your view.

I don't do online articles and I have totally l

ost interest in this discussion.

Say what you want, but know I likely will not respond.

What you could do for me is utilize the many scriptures

that I have quoted, and explain why they do not 

pertain to the Gospel, when they ARE the Gospel.

If it is your own view, post it in your own thread. 

This OP posted two scriptures and posed a question.

What exactly are you labeling "my view" in my posts,

when I have citing more and more scriptures for 

sincere consideration. And BTW...

36 minutes ago, Knowledge Wrestler said:

Actually, I don't blame anyone for not understanding Scripture correctly. The problems in understanding are so great that we literally need divine help. 

This is so incoherent and without comprehension I wonder if the author

of the article has even read the Bible.

We "literally" need Divine help? Very insightful.

2 Corinthians 3:

14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day

the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament,

because the veil is taken away in Christ. 

15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 

16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 

17 Now the Lord is the Spirit;

and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[Mr. M]

4 minutes ago, Knowledge Wrestler said:

Please reflect on these posts while I take a break.

Please post this on your own thread while I walk away.

I will follow your thread, but I will not discuss your

off topic concerns that are way beyond the scope of 

the thread.