Should abortion be banned??

[CaptWalker]

I know this has been asked before on this forum but given what is going on now with the elections coming up and what most Christians believe as being Gospel truth/Trump.... I just needed to ask it.

And that is basically this...if all unborn/innocent infants do go to heaven then should all reasons/circumstances for abortion be banned, even for a preteen girl who was raped, or a woman whos life will be endangered by giving birth?

(Ecclesiastes-6:3)

Edited August 20, 2024 by CaptWalker

[katburnell]

Yes, it should. Abortion is a terrible procedure that brutally kills an innocent unborn child. Even in the case of incest/rape, that unborn child should not suffer because of a crime committed by someone else. Adoption is a wonderful alternative for birth mothers who can not raise their child, but killing them should not be an option. 

The case of the mother's life being at risk due to the baby is extremely rare, as most women decide to get abortions due to the baby being an inconvenience. 

[Jayne]

Abortion is an abomination before a holy God.

While I believe that with my whole heart, I also believe that ectopic pregnancies [what we used to call tubal pregnancies] when the fetus is implanted in the Fallopian tubes and not the womb are not viable and will not grow to term without ripping through the mother's tubes and rupturing, killing the fetus and causing potential and terrible harm to the mother.  I do not believe that terminating that pregnancy is an abomination and I know that that little fetus will be with Christ.

Birth defects such as Down's Syndrome should NOT be cause for abortion.  There are so many with this disorder across the world who thrive and are a blessing to their families.

There are occasional and very rare things that happen in the womb that perhaps are cause to terminate.  I had a friend once who worked for a wonderful man - a Christian OB/GYN and she told me that something terrible had happened.  She was visibly shaken and said that during a routine ultrasound, it was discovered that a woman's unborn child was alive, but had no head.  There was only the stump of the base of a brain.  She said the doctor was sickened to have to tell the mother.  I asked her later what happened and she said that she did not want to talk about it so I never asked again.  I can only assume the pregnancy was terminated and God took that child into heaven and that child is whole.

The LORD God says in Deuteronomy to "choose life".  There are lots of meanings behind that, but we could make a case for protecting the unborn.  My only sibling, my brother was born with disabilities and my mother/father loved him and I love him today.  Even if my mother/father knew of the disabilities in the womb, they would not have terminated him.

As for rape?  I've read of 9-year-olds who were impregnated by family members.  In those cases - I am only sure of what I would do if that were my child.  

An abortion that is based on a sick disregard of human life - from the mother or the father or the grandparents - is demonic.

Having to terminate a pregnancy due to harsh abnormalities is heartbreaking, but I do not hold it to be of the devil.

 

 

[CaptWalker]

All I know about incest and rape is what the OT laws say as far as the perpetrator being put to death. But nowadays they actually may not even get 10 years in prison, so then I feel the same should apply for the victims as far as what they decide to do. Either way it is an abomination to God for a preteen to be raped, period.

[Neighbor]

Whether true or not I do not know, but I have read that each  pregnancy  literally changes the mother's make up. Her genetics become modified. If so  then she has a life long stake in whether to continue in any and every pregnancy, regardless of circumstance.  A rape at any age should not be allowed to change a woman's chemical make up by force of having to continue a pregnancy.

Ideally every pregnancy becomes a wonderful experience, but truth is it is not. The ideal is for every person to be kind to all women that are facing pregnancy regardless of their circumstance and to make their choices far more viable than they are today to the end goal that  abortion is a very rare medical procedure, not a minute by minute occurrence by the tens of thousands each week at abortion mills.

There are just way too many laws and variations on laws pertaining to abortion, least in the USA.

 

[Tristen]

On 8/20/2024 at 1:18 PM, CaptWalker said:

if all unborn/innocent infants do go to heaven

This is not a premise stated explicitly in scripture. It may be true, and there are valid arguments from scripture supporting this position. But there are also arguments against. And since this premise is not directly stated in scripture, we cannot make such important decisions on the basis of this premise being true - especially if those decisions are otherwise contrary to scripture (such as prohibitions on murder).

 

On 8/20/2024 at 1:18 PM, CaptWalker said:

should all reasons/circumstances for abortion be banned

I personally make allowances for occasions when the mother's life is in serious jeopardy. 

It is important that in such circumstances, we recognize that we are choosing between two sacred human lives.

I would also suggest that a husband has a covenant obligation to protect and prioritize the life of his wife. A husband's obligation to his wife supersedes his obligation to the unborn child. 

 

On 8/20/2024 at 1:18 PM, CaptWalker said:

even for a preteen girl who was raped

No. We do not murder children because the father is a rapist.

Even recognizing the truly vile nature of rape, and the ongoing effects on the mother of having to carry the child, there is no moral justification for killing the child. It is morally the same as deciding to kill a 1-year-old for the same reason - the unborn child is simply at an earlier stage of development (and if anything, more vulnerable and more innocent).

Furthermore, the mere suggestion that we should consider murdering a child of rape indicates that one has not properly considered the human value and dignity of the child. As it would be otherwise, self-evidently, morally reprehensible to suggest an innocent child be killed because of the actions of an adult - in any context.

 

On 8/20/2024 at 1:18 PM, CaptWalker said:

or a woman whos life will be endangered by giving birth

The phrase "will be endangered" is a bit weak and far too vague for my liking.

If the unborn child places the mother's life in immediate peril, then it may be necessary to make the awful decision to choose to save one life at the cost of the other.

For much of the pregnancy, the death of the mother would result in the death of the child regardless.

Either way, it is important to recognize that a human life is being lost.

[Jayne]

3 hours ago, Tristen said:

This is not a premise stated explicitly in scripture. It may be true, and there are valid arguments from scripture supporting this position. But there are also arguments against. And since this premise is not directly stated in scripture, we cannot make such important decisions on the basis of this premise being true - especially if those decisions are otherwise contrary to scripture (such as prohibitions on murder)No. We do not murder children because the father is a rapist.

Even recognizing the truly vile nature of rape, and the ongoing effects on the mother of having to carry the child, there is no moral justification for killing the child. It is morally the same as deciding to kill a 1-year-old for the same reason - the unborn child is simply at an earlier stage of development (and if anything, more vulnerable and more innocent).

I'm just asking.  I hate abortion for 95% of the time, too.  

What ARE those "ongoing effects" on the mother of having to carry the child of her rapist?

How would you force a 12 year old to bear a child?  A 9 year old?  I ask about the 9 year old because one of the cases of girls that young that I read about a few years ago was in South America.  She, at 9, was raped and impregnated by her uncle.

Her mother wanted to terminate the unborn baby.  Very early.  The Catholic Church forbade them to do so.  I don't know if she survived the pregnancy or what.  

So if a little child is raped and gets pregnant, I guess what I am asking is who gets to force her to have the baby?

Now I am not saying that all rapes should end in abortion.   I'm just saying that this is something that bothers me GREATLY.

Who gets to tell the 9, 10, 11, 12 year old child who has been vilely raped that she must carry the baby.

 

[Neighbor]

43 minutes ago, Jayne said:

Now I am not saying that all rapes should end in abortion.   I'm just saying that this is something that bothers me GREATLY.

Mass raping of an enemy's females with the intent to impregnate them is also used as a weapon of war.

Why, to what end result? To exact genocide and ethnic cleaning, plus instilling shear terror in an enemy.

See https://theweek.com/defence/rape-as-a-weapon-why-wars-oldest-most-silenced-crime-is-on-the-rise

While terminating those pregnancies is homicide, is it murder? I do not think it is murder, but is a most unpleasant need and a just homicide.

 

[Lilybloom]

This is likely to be an unpopular opinion of mine in these circles... Partially because I wasn't always a Christian, so I struggle to understand the standpoint; but also because I have personal experience here. So here goes...

No. Abortion should not be banned. It should be something accessible to anyone at any time.

Now, for restrictions... How can such things even be proven? A woman claims that she's pregnant with her rapist's baby. So because this is the law now... How does she prove that in court? Women already struggle with saying they have been raped, and struggle even more to get those vile people behind bars in a court of law. And now if she gets pregnant, she has even more of a mountain to climb? Say her life is in danger, she's likely to die if they carry to term. Does she have to stand before a jury showing everyone her ultrasounds, pay a lawyer to argue on her behalf, in this economy? Is she still pregnant during this so the gestation continues, or do they have to terminate it ASAP and then argue after the fact that it was justified? It's far too complicated.

Now for open access. If it is a sin, then that sin is on their own hands. Are we going to pass Levitical laws, banning tattoo parlors from existing or dictating that bacon shall never be ate? So many Christians want to institute their laws, thinking it will just make everyone into Christians; it won't. Even if compelled by law to say Lord Lord with their mouth, their heart won't say it. Church and state are not married and neither should they be. I see this trend of pushing for a religious government when boom, good job, you're basically paving the way for the antichrist to say "join me or be punished".

Most women, and I mean most women, aren't seeking abortion unless it's entirely necessary. Most women aren't going in there without feeling bad, or struggling with it in some way; especially when you have protesters outside shouting hellfire at them. It's not an easy thing, you don't just do it. You consider things first, they've got their reasoning behind it. And you've got all this rhetoric that an abortion is done every single minute every day in a lone single clinic. Like there's some jacked up wicked doctor with a vacuum cleaner just rapid-fire suctioning women; he doesn't sleep or eat or live a life as a normal human being apparently.

My experience? My mom wanted to abort me but was persuaded against it by her parents. I am a rape baby. I've watched anti-abortion documentaries where some lady is like, "I'm that baby. If my mom aborted me, I wouldn't exist"... And that's why it should be a choice! Your mother was strong enough to see past all that and love you for who you are, that's a wonderful thing and i'd never deny a woman's right to bear a child even if the father is a rapist - Because that's her decision. My mother? Couldn't get over that. She abandoned the family while I was still in diapers. Even reinitiating contact, we could never connect emotionally. She could very rarely ever look me in the eyes, she preferred looking at my feet. My presence made her uncomfortable. And I was instead raised by my (not biological) abusive father.

Looking back, I personally wouldn't object to having been terminated. If we're really all just souls waiting in the rafters for a chance at life, then I gladly would wait for a loving family and a more normal life. One where my mom is present, my dad doesn't throw me down the stairs, and I don't have to consult a genetic specialist if I want my worries assuaged if I ever want to have kids. You're sparing children a potentially awful life by taking away the mother's choice. Because if she doesn't already love the idea of having a baby, she is not going to love that baby. And adoption. We already have an excessive surplus of children in foster care. So not only will pregnancy become much more commonplace, but wards of the state will start to outweigh our capability to properly care for them. Maybe I would've been happier in a home and potentially adopted by wonderful people, but statistically speaking, it's highly unlikely.

All this is why I do not oppose abortion. It's not gonna win me many friends here, but truth matters more than that.

[CaptWalker]

Well the only scenario where I would say all aborted babies don't go to heaven is if God simply judged each one at that point, as to where they would have ended up when there lives were done. But that sounds way too much like predestination to me. Otherwise if God already knows who's going where then what's the point of us even being here to begin with??

Anyway I thought there was another verse about it other than Ecclesiastes 6:3 but just can't recall?