Kitzmiller v. Dover, Intelligent Design VS Theistic Evolution.

[The Barbarian]

On 4/19/2025 at 10:23 PM, Mozart's Starling said:

There is no reading of Genesis that even hints at evolution.

Nor any reading that even hints at leukocytes or heliocentrism.    Lots of things that are true that aren't in Genesis.    Genesis is about God and man and our relationship, not about how life diversifies or how the solar system works.    If you try to add that stuff, you lose the real message.   If you're warping the Bible to fit the conclusions of YE creationists or geocentrists, you're making a massive mistake.

On 4/19/2025 at 10:23 PM, Mozart's Starling said:

Science does not have priority over God's word.

Science can't even comment on God's word.   Science is only about the physical universe.   It can't say anything at all about the supernatural.   Can't support it, can't deny it.   You might as well expect plumbing to be part of Genesis.

I'm so tired of Christians adding stuff to Genesis to make it fit their wishes.   Instead of asking Genesis to conform to your ideas, just accept it as it is.   

Even if it doesn't tell you that the Earth goes around the Sun. 

[RV_Wizard]

7 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Science can't even comment on God's word.   Science is only about the physical universe.   It can't say anything at all about the supernatural.   Can't support it, can't deny it.

I'm so glad you finally understand this, as I've only said it to you several dozen times.  That's why science cannot account for the origin of life or the diversity of species, because such things are the creation of a supernatural God.  Since the Bible CLEARLY says that there were trees bearing fruit on day three, we know that trees did not evolve.  Since the Bible CLEARLY says that fishes, whales and birds all came about on day five, we know that THEY did not evolve.  Since the Bible CLEARLY tells us that all land animals and man were created on day six, we know that animals did not evolve.  While we know that Adam was created on day six, we don't have an exact timeline for the creation of Eve.  She could have been created that day, or days or weeks later.

In Genesis 1:30 we read, "And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so."  Thus we know that all living things were herbivores until the fall of man, after which death came into the world. By this we know that evolution is foolishness, and false doctrine created by Satan to deceive many.  By this we know that those who distort the Gospel to preach evolution are false teachers, and that which they proclaim is contrary to the word of God.

By reading the entire text, not taking portions out of context and twisting their interpretation, we know that God created the world in six days; that by one man sin and death came into the world; by one man life on earth was preserved from a great flood; and by one man salvation came to all mankind.  These messages are very important.  They are God's revelation to man.  

[The Barbarian]

Science can't even comment on God's word.   Science is only about the physical universe.   It can't say anything at all about the supernatural.   Can't support it, can't deny it.

7 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

I'm so glad you finally understand this

I'm so glad you've stopped denying it, after I've told you this so many times.

7 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

That's why science cannot account for the origin of life or the diversity of species

You're confusing God with nature.    Science can learn about the physical universe.   And for example, science has found that God was right when He said the Earth brought forth living things.    As you have learned, science has learned that new species evolve from earlier ones.    You are willing to accept that God created life, but you don't approve of the  way He did it.

You've confused the "yom" of creation with literal 24 hour days.   But the text of Genesis itself rejects such an interpretation.    In Genesis 1, it says six days.   But in Genesis 2, the text says one day.    God cannot contradict Himself; you should not try to make it so.   By reading the entire text, not taking portions out of context and twisting their interpretation, we know that one cannot revise Genesis to make the "days" literal ones.  

Why not just accept His word as it is?

 

 

[RV_Wizard]

On 4/21/2025 at 5:24 PM, The Barbarian said:

for example, science has found that God was right when He said the Earth brought forth living things

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

A six day creation, NOT evolution.  You can believe God's word or you can believe evolution; not both.

On 4/21/2025 at 5:24 PM, The Barbarian said:

You've confused the "yom" of creation with literal 24 hour days.   But the text of Genesis itself rejects such an interpretation.

And yet, there are no Hebrew scholars who will agree with you.  When used with evening and morning or with a number yom ALWAYS means a single solar day without exception.  Continuing to make false claims to the contrary doesn't give validation to your falsehood.

On 4/21/2025 at 5:24 PM, The Barbarian said:

But in Genesis 2, the text says one day.

You really need to get some fresh lies.  These old ones have been destroyed years ago.  Genesis 2 begins, Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.  It is not another creation story, it is greater detail on the events of day six,

[The Barbarian]

For example, science has found that God was right when He said the Earth brought forth living things.   I see you found the verse that refutes your belief.   Well done.

14 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

You'll admit that much.   You disapprove of the way He does it.   We get that.  Fortunately for you, He doesn't care if you like it or not.   That's not how your salvation is determined.

14 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The image, as Jesus teaches us, is not in our bodies, but in our minds and souls.    Jesus says that God is a spirit.    And as Jesus taught us, a spirit has no body.   God doesn't look like some kind of intermediate between a man and a woman.  

You've confused the "yom" of creation with literal 24 hour days.   But the text of Genesis itself rejects such an interpretation.

14 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

And yet, there are no Hebrew scholars who will agree with you.

You are really, really wrong about that.   Moses Maimonides, the 12th century Jewish theologian is arguably the greatest Jewish theologian.

Even as Maimonides argued for the superiority of Scripture to Greek philosophy on important questions of origins, however, he also insisted that it was a mistake to read the six days of the Genesis narrative as literal 24-hour periods. The creation in Genesis, Maimonides taught, is not primarily intended as a cosmogony (that is, as a scientific description of the way the world came to be in every particular detail) but rather as a cosmology, i.e., a description of the structure and order of God’s creation.

https://spectrummagazine.org/post-archives/moses-maimonides-literal-meaning-genesis/

However, all this aside, no one will deny that Maimonides is one of the most respected Jewish authorities in history. His monumental code of Jewish law is the most comprehensive ever written, and is probably the basis of more subsequent Rabbinic discussion than any other book save the Talmud. Even those who disagreed with him and even strongly criticized him generally acknowledged his greatness.

https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/108821/is-anyone-against-the-rational-teachings-of-maimonides

Other Jews and Christians have long regarded the creation account of Genesis as an allegory – even prior to the development of modern science and the scientific accounts (based on the scientific method) of cosmological, biological and human origins. Notable proponents of allegorical interpretation include the Christian theologian Origen, who wrote in the 2nd century that it was inconceivable to consider Genesis literal history, Augustine of Hippo, who in the 4th century, on theological grounds, argued that God created everything in the universe in the same instant, and not in six days as a plain reading of Genesis would require;^[2][3] and the even earlier 1st-century Jewish scholar Philo of Alexandria, who wrote that it would be a mistake to think that creation happened in six days or in any determinate amount of time.^[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegorical_interpretations_of_Genesis

If you can't get this right, how can you understand anything about the issue?

In Genesis 2, the text says one day.

14 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

You really need to get some fresh lies. 

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heaven and the earth, when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the heaven and the earth

God does not lie.    His word is good enough for me.  It should be good enough for you, too.   You're just picking the parts you like and rejecting the parts you don't like.

 

 

[RV_Wizard]

41 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

You disapprove of the way He does it.

He created all land dwelling animals on day six of creation.  The universe was created in six days.  You refuse to believe God's word.  You disapprove of how He did it and want to distort His word to fit your world view.

44 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

God doesn't look like some kind of intermediate between a man and a woman.  

God is masculine.  He.  Our Father.  His name.  

46 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

You've confused the "yom" of creation with literal 24 hour days.   But the text of Genesis itself rejects such an interpretation.

No, evening and morning represent one day 100% of the time without exception.  The creation week with the day of rest is the basis for our work week.  A cycle of the moon is a month.  An orbit around the sun is a year.  There is nothing else besides the week of creation to designate one week.

51 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Other Jews and Christians have long regarded the creation account of Genesis as an allegory

Jesus believed in.  He was actually there.  He walked and spoke with Adam.  He quoted Genesis regularly.  Remember, Christ said that from the beginning God created them make and female.  From the beginning; not millions of years later.  Cite all the false prophets and false teachers you want.  Paul warned us against false prophets and false teachers.

Maimonides was born in 1135.  He wrote, 

“If he did not succeed to this degree or was killed, he surely is not the redeemer promised by the Torah. Rather, he should be considered as all the other proper and complete kings of the Davidic dynasty who died. God caused him to arise only to test the many, as Daniel 11:35 states: ‘And some of the wise men will stumble, to try them, to refine, and to clarify until the appointed time, because the set time is in the future.'”

“Jesus of Nazareth who aspired to be the Mashiach and was executed by the court was also alluded to in Daniel’s prophecies, as ibid. 11:14 states: ‘The vulgar among your people shall exalt themselves in an attempt to fulfill the vision, but they shall stumble.'”

“Can there be a greater stumbling block than Christianity?”  

So, your great hero rejected Christ as the son of God and refused to accept Him as the sacrifice for the sins of man.  "The vulgar among your people?"  Do YOU see Christ as being vulgar; a Messianic wannabe?

There will be many "great spiritual leaders" in Hell.  The only salvation is to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, and to live according to His will.  Anything else leads to destruction.

[The Barbarian]

3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

He created all land dwelling animals on day six of creation.  The universe was created in six days. 

You're still trying to redefine things your way.   He says that it was done in one day, in Genesis 2.    As you learned, the text itself says that they weren't literal 24-hour days.

3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

God is masculine.  He.  Our Father.  His name.  

No, the Latter Day Saint idea of Mr. God is incorrect.   God has no gender.

3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

No, evening and morning represent one day 100% of the time without exception. 

Like your assumption that Jewish theologians did not admit the figurative nature of Genesis, this new assumption is incorrect.    By definition, one cannot have mornings and evenings with no sun to have them, and the Sun wasn't created until the fourth day.  

3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Jesus believed in.

He created it. You just don't accept the way He created it.

You've confused the "yom" of creation with literal 24 hour days.   But the text of Genesis itself rejects such an interpretation.

19 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

And yet, there are no Hebrew scholars who will agree with you. 

You are really, really wrong about that.   Moses Maimonides, the 12th century Jewish theologian is arguably the greatest Jewish theologian.

Even as Maimonides argued for the superiority of Scripture to Greek philosophy on important questions of origins, however, he also insisted that it was a mistake to read the six days of the Genesis narrative as literal 24-hour periods. The creation in Genesis, Maimonides taught, is not primarily intended as a cosmogony (that is, as a scientific description of the way the world came to be in every particular detail) but rather as a cosmology, i.e., a description of the structure and order of God’s creation.

https://spectrummagazine.org/post-archives/moses-maimonides-literal-meaning-genesis/

However, all this aside, no one will deny that Maimonides is one of the most respected Jewish authorities in history. His monumental code of Jewish law is the most comprehensive ever written, and is probably the basis of more subsequent Rabbinic discussion than any other book save the Talmud. Even those who disagreed with him and even strongly criticized him generally acknowledged his greatness.

https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/108821/is-anyone-against-the-rational-teachings-of-maimonides

Other Jews and Christians have long regarded the creation account of Genesis as an allegory – even prior to the development of modern science and the scientific accounts (based on the scientific method) of cosmological, biological and human origins. Notable proponents of allegorical interpretation include the Christian theologian Origen, who wrote in the 2nd century that it was inconceivable to consider Genesis literal history, Augustine of Hippo, who in the 4th century, on theological grounds, argued that God created everything in the universe in the same instant, and not in six days as a plain reading of Genesis would require;^[2][3] and the even earlier 1st-century Jewish scholar Philo of Alexandria, who wrote that it would be a mistake to think that creation happened in six days or in any determinate amount of time.^[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegorical_interpretations_of_Genesis

If you can't get this right, how can you understand anything about the issue?

(sound of goalposts being frantically repositioned)

3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

So, your great hero rejected Christ as the son of God and refused to accept Him as the sacrifice for the sins of man. 

Jewish theologians don't accept that Jesus was God.   Thought you knew.   The point is that you are flat out wrong about what they thought of Genesis.   Many of them were aware that it isn't a literal history.

3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

There will be many "great spiritual leaders" in Hell. 

Fortunately for YE creationists, God won't send them to hell for rejecting the way He created things.   Unless they make their new doctrines into an idol and insist that one must believe them to be saved.

3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The only salvation is to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, and to live according to His will. 

If you're doing that, being a YE creationist will not endanger your salvation.   I pray that is the case.

 

[RV_Wizard]

7 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

He says that it was done in one day, in Genesis 2. 

is it that you don't understand the Bible, or do you deliberately misrepresent it?

8 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

No, the Latter Day Saint idea of Mr. God is incorrect. 

The LDS is a false religion, teaching false doctrine.  They are more of a cult than a religious sect.

God is never described with sexual characteristics in the Scriptures, but He does consistently describe Himself in the masculine gender.

While God contains all the qualities of both male and female genders, He has chosen to present Himself with an emphasis on masculine qualities of fatherhood, protection, direction, strength, etc. Metaphors used to describe Him in the Bible include: King, Father, Judge, Husband, Master, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.  source

12 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

By definition, one cannot have mornings and evenings with no sun to have them,

Wow!  You're still pushing that lie?  Although dozens of people have explained to you that light was created day one, you claim it was not?  By the way, other than plant and tree life, there was not a SINGLE LIVING THING on earth until day five.

15 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Moses Maimonides

Maimonides has been pointed out to have been a non-believer who rejected Christ as the Messiah and the son of God.  He may be respected by those who reject Christ and God's word, but Christians shouldn't believe a word he wrote.  He was wrong about the greatest truth in the universe.

21 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Jewish theologians don't accept that Jesus was God. 

They will one day.  So will you... one day.  Eventually every knee will bow.

22 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Fortunately for YE creationists, God won't send them to hell for rejecting the way He created things. 

False teachers don't have such grace.  2nd Peter 2:1 “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

[The Barbarian]

He says that it was done in one day, in Genesis 2. 

37 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

is it that you don't understand the Bible, or do you deliberately misrepresent it?

What about "Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heaven and the earth, when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the heaven and the earth"

Do you not understand?

39 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

The LDS is a false religion, teaching false doctrine.  They are more of a cult than a religious sect.

So why promote the LDS doctrine that God has a gender?   He is a spirit, and Jesus tells us spirits don't have bodies.

By definition, one cannot have mornings and evenings with no sun to have them,

41 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Wow!  You're still pushing that lie?  Although dozens of people have explained to you that light was created day one, you claim it was not? 

Your excuses have been repeatedly debunked.   If "big light in the sky" is "morning", then moonrise is morning.  C'mon.

42 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Maimonides has been pointed out to have been a non-believer who rejected Christ as the Messiah and the son of God. 

I thought you knew Jewish theologians don't accept Jesus as God.    You also mistakenly claimed that none of them thought Genesis was figurative.   You're mistaken on both counts.   Miamonides was just one of the more significant examples.

45 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

They will one day. 

So will you... one day.   

Fortunately for YE creationists, God won't send them to hell for rejecting the way He created things. 

46 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

False teachers don't have such grace. 

You're not a false teacher.   You're just indoctrinated into an error.   And unless you make an idol of it, it won't cost you your salvation.

 

[RV_Wizard]

39 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

What about "Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heaven and the earth, when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the heaven and the earth"

You have a problem distinguishing between "in the day" and "on the day."  Satan used the same argument with Eve.  Is that where you got it?

40 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

So why promote the LDS doctrine that God has a gender?

Why do you promote National Socialist doctrine that man evolved?  Why do you promote Satanist doctrine that the Bible is not true as written?  Just because a false religion mentions something consistent with the Bible, it doesn't make them anything other than a false religion.  I will remind you that Satan quoted Scripture to Jesus.  Of course, like you, he misrepresented it.

44 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

If "big light in the sky" is "morning", then moonrise is morning. 

This remains among the stupidest things you ever say.  Morning and evening have to do with the rotation of the earth, not the light source.  As everyone else seems to understand, the moon wasn't created until the sun was.  Moonrise denotes evening.  Sunrise denotes a new day.

47 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

You also mistakenly claimed that none of them thought Genesis was figurative.  

No, what I said was that no expert on the Hebrew language believes the days described in Genesis are anything but solar days.  I didn't say they believed what was written; as you do not either.  I said when used with evening and morning or as a numbered day, it means a single solar day 100% of the time.  I am perfectly aware that post crucifixion Jews are as lost as can be.  Their rejection of Christ leaves them no forgiveness for their sins.  I don't see them sacrificing any lambs.

I give their words or opinions no more credence that that of any other false teacher or false prophet.  Even Mohammed had a few grains of truth in his mountain of lies.