Kitzmiller v. Dover, Intelligent Design VS Theistic Evolution.

[The Barbarian]

17 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Darwin absolutely believed in universal common descent.

That's a testable assumption...

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.

Charles Darwin, last sentence of On the Origin of Species

17 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

However, as you have been taught so many times, evolution as it is taught today does not limit itself to what Darwin believed or what he wrote about. 

I'm just pointing out that Darwin assumed that God created the first living things, supposing that it was an unknown number of original species.   So your assumption is wrong.    Because you never bothered to find out for yourself, you were easy prey for the guys who lied to you.

Universal common descent is a finding of genetics.

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Universal common descent is a Satanic lie.

It's just a conclusion from evidence.     Neither God nor Satan have expressed opinions on it.    Only those who presume to speak for God and/or Satan.   

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Claiming that it has validity is heresy.

Horsefeathers.    YE creationists aren't heretics; they are just in error on a few doctrines that have no bearing on their salvation.

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Claiming common ancestry while denying a common Creator is foolishness. 

As you see, even Darwin asserted a common Creator.    I don't think even you deny a common Creator; you just don't approve of the way He created some things.

[RV_Wizard]

40 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

I'm just pointing out that Darwin assumed that God created the first living things

In the beginning, but not in the end.  In the end he didn't believe anything written in the Gospel.  

"The old argument of design in nature, as given by Paley, which formerly seemed to me so conclusive, fails, now that the law of natural selection had been discovered. We can no longer argue that, for instance, the beautiful hinge of a bivalve shell must have been made by an intelligent being, like the hinge of a door by man. There seems to be no more design in the variability of organic beings and in the action of natural selection, than in the course which the wind blows. Everything in nature is the result of fixed laws.

"At the present day [c. 1872] the most usual argument for the existence of an intelligent God is drawn from the deep inward conviction and feelings which are experienced by most persons. But it cannot be doubted that Hindoos, Mahomadans and others might argue in the same manner and with equal force in favor of the existence of one God, or of many Gods, or as with the Buddhists of no God ... This argument would be a valid one if all men of all races had the same inward conviction of the existence of one God: But we know that this is very far from being the case. Therefore I cannot see that such inward convictions and feelings are of any weight as evidence of what really exists." " Darwin.

So, no, in the end, Darwin didn't believe there was a God or that God created anything that lived.

And yes, despite your claims to the contrary, evolution is a satanic lie and those who promote it are false teachers.  The fourth commandment exists for a reason.

 

[The Barbarian]

I'm just pointing out that Darwin assumed that God created the first living things.

Just now, RV_Wizard said:

In the beginning,

Yes, when he published his theory.

2 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

So, no, in the end, Darwin didn't believe there was a God or that God created anything that lived.

In fact, he said he was "leaning toward being an agnostic."   But he was an orthodox Anglican Christian when he published his theory.

3 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

And yes, despite your claims to the contrary, evolution is a satanic lie and those who promote it are false teachers.

As you learned, neither God nor Satan said anything about that.   You shouldn't be presuming to speak for either of them.

 

[RV_Wizard]

5 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

But he was an orthodox Anglican Christian when he published his theory.

Views which he later rejected as he strayed further from God in search of a natural explanation for the origination of life.

Evolution is a lie.  Satan is the founder of lies.  Evolution is a Satanic lie.  Case closed.

[The Barbarian]

12 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Views which he later rejected as he strayed further from God in search of a natural explanation for the origination of life.

He never made a theory on the origin of life.   His only word on it attributes it to God.    As you know, YECs always confuse evolution with the origin of life.

12 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Evolution is a lie. 

It's a directly observed phenomenon.    YECs also frequently confuse evolution with common descent.    I don't think they are lying about this; they are just so indoctrinated in their false doctrines that they are unable to think about it clearly.

12 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Satan is the founder of lies.

But not the founder of error.   And I think most YECs are merely in error, not lying.

12 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Evolution is a Satanic lie.

If so we wouldn't be observing it happening.   Nature is God's creation, not Satan's.   And evolution is just the way He makes new species.   Which even YECs have finally admitted. (most of them anyway)

12 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Case closed.

Yep.

[RV_Wizard]

7 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

His only word on it attributes it to God.

As we all know, he later doubted the existence of God and was simply unsure what natural occurrence began first life.  Try reading his later works.

7 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

It's a directly observed phenomenon.  

It's observed speciation extrapolated into a lie of origins.  The animal kingdom was c0mplete on day six.  There is a genetic bottleneck which was caused by the great flood.  God said it, case closed.

7 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

If so we wouldn't be observing it happening. 

We're not.  Nothing evolves into anything else.  Cross breeding leads to sterility.   Base pairs from the ark expanding into the current manifestation of the animal kingdom doesn't mean you share ancestry with a daffodil.  It's a satanic lie.  It serves Satan's desire to steal glory from God. 

[The Barbarian]

Darwin never made a theory on the origin of life.   His only word on it attributes it to God.    As you know, YECs always confuse evolution with the origin of life.

7 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

As we all know, he later doubted the existence of God and was simply unsure what natural occurrence began first life. 

If you think God creating life is a "natural occurence", the Bible would support you on that.  It says that the Earth brought forth animals.

Evolution is a directly observed phenomenon.  

9 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

It's observed speciation extrapolated into a lie of origins.

Technically, speciation is macroevolution.    But evolution as such is just a change in allele frequencies in a population.   That also happens without speciation.   We see evolution in all sorts of populations.

10 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

The animal kingdom was c0mplete on day six.  There is a genetic bottleneck which was caused by the great flood.  God said it

No, that's your addition to God's word.   It's nowhere to be found in the Bible.  God didn't say it, case closed.

If you were right, we wouldn't be observing it happening. But descent with modification (Darwin's theory) and changes in allele frequency (modern definition) are observed everywhere.   

13 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Nothing evolves into anything else. 

Even AiG now admits the evolution of new species, genera, and sometimes families.   They just don't want to use the word "evolution."    So let's just use "descent with modification" as Darwin put it.

Why not just accept that God did it His way?    It won't cost you your salvation if you want to be a YEC, but you would have a closer relationship with God if you accepted His word on this.

 

[RV_Wizard]

13 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

As you know, YECs always confuse evolution with the origin of life.

Origination aside, evolution proponents claim common ancestry over millions of years, where God's word SPECIFICALLY states that the creation was complete and man walked the earth on the sixth day.  You keep downplaying non-issues around the edges when at the heart of it evolution is 100% in opposition to the Scriptures.  Jesus quoted from Genesis.  Jesus was there.  When God walked and spoke with Adam, that was Jesus.  Jesus told us that the Scriptures were true and useful for education.  Evolutionists claim it's all a lie.  You keep saying that in his original work Darwin said that perhaps some god did create first life, but it evolved from there.  Even that is a lie, because God did NOT create everything from one original cell over millions of years.

Your views on the origination of the first life is a small lie compared to the MASSIVE lie of common origins you preach.  Man and apes did NOT have a common ancestor, they had a common CREATOR.  Genetics show common design.  Common ancestry is a lie.

13 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

It says that the Earth brought forth animals.

It says that God created all the animals from the earth ON DAY SIX, not over millions of years.  Satan uses portions of the Bible out of context to deceive.  He did it with Eve and tried it with Christ.  You do the EXACT same thing.

13 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

No, that's your addition to God's word.

That is a straight up lie.

Genesis 1:

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Now, show me what I've added or admit your lie.

13 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Even AiG now admits the evolution of new species, genera, and sometimes families. 

Continuing speciation has NOTHING WHATEVER to do with the claim that man evolved from a common ancestor with a daffodil.

[The Barbarian]

As you know, YECs always confuse evolution with the origin of life.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Origination aside, evolution proponents claim common ancestry over millions of years, where God's word SPECIFICALLY states that the creation was complete and man walked the earth on the sixth day. 

Do you not thing you are a creation of God?    And as you learned earlier, the text itself says that the "yom" of creation are not literal 24 hour days.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

You keep downplaying non-issues around the edges when at the heart of it evolution is 100% in opposition to the Scriptures. 

That would be rather odd, since we directly observe evolution in living populations.   God does not contradict His creation.    Did you forget again, what biological evolution is?    "Descent with modification" (Darwn) or "change in allele frequencies in a population" (genetics).

Try to find a way to live with creation as He did it.   Nothing in scripture opposes biological evolution.    I think you're still confusing evolution and common descent.    And even many creationist organizations have now retreated to accepting a limited amount of common descent to include new species, new genera, and even sometimes new families.    If they retreat just a little more, we won't have anything to argue about.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Continuing speciation has NOTHING WHATEVER to do with the claim that man evolved from a common ancestor with a daffodil.

That is a finding from genetics, not evolutionary theory.   It is as you know, consistent with evolutionary theory and scripture.

 

 

[RV_Wizard]

On 4/28/2025 at 5:01 PM, The Barbarian said:

If you think God creating life is a "natural occurence", the Bible would support you on that.

Darwin allowed that some god could have made the first living thing because he couldn't explain the origin of life.  That falls far short of giving God the glory fo all creation.  

3 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Nothing in scripture opposes biological evolution.

100% false.  The Bible states that all animals and man were created by God in a day.  Evolution claims it took millions of years.  It seems that in order to make your point you have to misrepresent EVERYTHING.

3 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

That is a finding from genetics, not evolutionary theory. 

According to who?  You?  Let's see what Britannica has to say about it.

The virtually infinite variations on life are the fruit of the evolutionary process. All living creatures are related by desc.ent from common ancestors. Humans and other mammals descend from shrewlike creatures that lived more than 150 million years ago; mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, and fishes share as ancestors aquatic worms that lived 600 million years ago; and all plants and animals derive from bacteria-like microorganisms that originated more than 3 billion years ago.

Maybe you need to educate THEM about what you claim evolution is.