Mature Universe Theory

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said:

 I have shown that Jeremiah and Isaiah used the same 2 Hebrew words

Your inability to grasp the concept of quoting Scripture by a prophet of God does not constitute a valid argument.

Why do you persist in your erroneous comments.  I am fully able to grasp WHY Jeremiah quoted from Gen 1:2, but you certainly have chosen to refuse to grasp the reason.    It is a very valid argument, but you simply reject it.  But that doesn't negate the argument or the FACTS.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Christ also quoted Scripture when He said In the beginning God created them man and woman.  After a restoration is not in the beginning, is it? 

Right.  Mark 10:6  He was speaking about the beginning of human history, obviously.  And the Greek word for "creation" there has this for its lexical meaning:  "from a state of disorder and wildness" (ktisis).  I went to an evangelical university to the reference section of their library and looked up the Greek word.  There were pages of information.  The ancient world nearly all viewed "creation" as coming from a state of disorder and wildness.  I've done the research.  FACTS.  You have none so far.  Just modern English translations.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

Your heresy dates back to the 1700's.  No further. 

This is beyond absurd.  My FACTS are based on what Moses wrote about 1400 BC and what Jeremiah wrote around 600 BC and Isaiah wrote about 700 BC.  And you have the gall to claim my view dates back only to the 1700's AD???  Are you able to grasp facts?

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

Misquoting an ancient text is not the same as following established doctrine.

Can you "misquote" a word? Please explain that bit of nonsense.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

  I can quote Horace "carpe diem" and claim it means "Shove a fish up my nose" all day, but that doesn't change what Horace meant.

Irrelevant, as usual.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

You forgot the word "modern."  Nobody translated it that way until they were confronted with old earth teaching.

And for those who ARE paying attention, I'm not quoting translations, I went to the SOURCE regarding the 2 KEY words in Gen 1:2.  The words you reject.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

The NASB was written in 1971 and the ISB in 2011, NEITHER of which use the Antioch, Syria scrolls, and both of which came AFTER ruin/ reconstruction theory came about in the 17th century.  You REFUSE to grasp that knowledge.

I went back to the SOURCE, so what you post here is totally irrelevant.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

Since whatever happened between v.1 and 2 hadn't been revised until the mid 1700's, gap theory is a modern heresy and you are preaching false doctrine.

Not talking about revisions.  I have presented what biblical authors WROTE, and you want to reject, as if that isn't as important as your KJV translation to English.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

That's a straight up falsehood.  You NEVER explained the existence of the world without a surrounding universe, or how the entire universe could be wiped out and the earth flooded so God had to start over.

OK, let's take this a bit slower then.  I have said repeatedly that Gen 1:1 is a statement of the creation of the universe and earth.  And we know that God only creates good.  So the universe and earth were perfect when created by His spoken word, from Psa 33:6,9.  Maybe that is too difficult for you to grasp, but I've said it often enough.

So your ridiculous comment about a world "without a surrounding universe" is beyond the pale.  That is what a falsehood is.  What you said above.

You are either failing to pay attention, or you are intentionally rejecting the FACTS.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

Every post until you admit you're wrong or you answer the question.

I already have answered your absurd questions.  Over and over.  But you just keep demonstrating that you aren't paying attention.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

No.  Genesis 1:14 is when the stars were created.  Genesis 1:1 is a statement of creation which is then detailed.

So what?  God didn't tell us that any were destroyed when the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland.  so your point is moot.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

5,00 BC + 17 centuries AD = 57.  Adam knew of his creation, as would have his descendants.  Moses just wrote it down.

Yep, he did.  And Jeremiah quoted Moses when warning about the coming TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the land.  Why that FACT hasn't sunk into your skull yet is amazing.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

So different people have different interpretations of the same word and neither is wrong?  How liberal of you.  Do they all get participation trophies?

Not actually.  The translators of Genesis 1 simply didn't have access to Bible study software to be able to research how "tohu wabohu" was translated elsewhere.  And God didn't give details in Genesis 1.  But there are 2 VERY CLEAR texts where "tohu wabohu" also occur and the clear context is the coming TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the land, which is used by Moses of what happened to the earth.  That is the ONLY REASON Jeremiah would have quoted from Gen 1:2.

Are you really not able to comprehend this very simple and obvious FACT?

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

What flooded the earth?

Water

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

What force destroyed God's creation?

Ask God.  He didn't give details.  How many times have I had to say this.  Why can't you pay attention.  Is it ADHD?

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

What authority is greater than God's?

There is none.  And this question is beyond bizarre.  As if there could be a force greater than God just because the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

  You duck like a duck.  Do you quack?

Stupid questions, really.  And the first question isn't even answerable.  Please edit before punching the "submit reply" button.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

How can a restoration begin with no prior existence?

Another such question, which I've already answered numerous times.  There WAS a 'prior existence'.  A good earth.  Which became wasted.  Why can't that very simple concept penetrate your skull?

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

 Exodus 19:4, God speaking to Moses.  "Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself."  Please show us where these giant eagles came from, and why the Israelites were flown out of Egypt rather than walk across the Red Sea.  You quote much and understand little.

Irrelevant.  

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

No.  You never demonstrated how the earth existed with no sun, no light, no heat, no stars, and no dry land.

I never said it did.  Why do you keep asking these inane questions?  The earth became an uninhabitable wasteland, and what you note is the result of that TOTAL DESTRUCTION, as used by both Jeremiah and Isaiah.

You have convinced me that you not only aren't interested in truth, you don't want it.

[BeyondET]

17 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Seems your self awareness could use some work.  Nothing you posted in response to my post is relevant to what I posted.  In fact, it doesn't even make sense.  

What are you trying to say?  I realize you are just ignoring the glaring facts, because they refute your view.

Well I think I'm aware of your profession. Thanks for the converse.

[BeyondET]

17 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

More confused words.  How does "he delayed the afternoon" relate to what I posted, and if God did, why can't you just cite it or quote it from the Bible.

All your responses are extremely vague and prove nothing.  I claim "there are facts in the Bible that support" and I PROVE that by quoting the verses with the Hebrew words.

Indeed you have improved, a professional.

[FreeGrace]

7 hours ago, BeyondET said:

FreeGrace said:

Seems your self awareness could use some work.  Nothing you posted in response to my post is relevant to what I posted.  In fact, it doesn't even make sense.  

What are you trying to say?  I realize you are just ignoring the glaring facts, because they refute your view.

Well I think I'm aware of your profession. Thanks for the converse.

Another unclear post.

[FreeGrace]

7 hours ago, BeyondET said:

  FreeGrace said:

More confused words.  How does "he delayed the afternoon" relate to what I posted, and if God did, why can't you just cite it or quote it from the Bible.

All your responses are extremely vague and prove nothing.  I claim "there are facts in the Bible that support" and I PROVE that by quoting the verses with the Hebrew words.

Indeed you have improved, a professional.

Since you don't have any evidence or facts to back up your views, I understand why you post what you do.

Why is it that Christians who are presented with facts and evidence that contradicts their beliefs, they simply can't accept them?  They choose to believe what they were taught, in spite of clear evidence and facts that refute what they have been taught.

No wonder there is so much diversity in what Christians believe.  It seems they are just unwilling to see the truth and let go of what they have been taught.

[RV_Wizard]

28 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Why is it that Christians who are presented with facts and evidence that contradicts their beliefs, they simply can't accept them?

I have wondered that about you from the beginning.   You seem to believe that there was a whole universe in existence for billions of years, the somehow it all got destroyed and God had to start over from scratch with a flooded, dead planet.  You base this all on the inability to understand why a prophet would quote the Scriptures, and a modern (1970’s +) definition of words in a language that you do not speak.  Ignoring statements of God to the contrary, you claim the u understanding of creation that lasted 57 centuries is wrong, and you are right.

There is no reasoning with you.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said:

Why is it that Christians who are presented with facts and evidence that contradicts their beliefs, they simply can't accept them?

I have wondered that about you from the beginning.

You really should say that you have wondered THAT about yourself, since you have rejected the actual evidence and facts that I have presented.  You quote the opinions of others, while I have quoted Scripture.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

  You seem to believe that there was a whole universe in existence for billions of years, the somehow it all got destroyed and God had to start over from scratch with a flooded, dead planet.

I know that you are having a very hard time grasping that such a thing could have happened, but the Hebrews words indicate exactly that, which I've proved by showing how those Hebrew words are used elsewhere in Scripture.  Why that seems to escape your understanding amazes me.

And why you seem unable to accept that God chose NOT to give any details of what may have happened is also amazing.  God is free to do whatever He wants.  He is not obliged to you or anyone else about why He leaves out details.  And it should be obvious to everyone WHY He didn't give details.  They aren't relevant to human history.  Not real hard to see.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

 You base this all on the inability to understand why a prophet would quote the Scriptures

Actually, I understand fully WHY Jeremiah quoted from Gen 1:2.  He was warning Israel of coming TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the land and understood completely what Moses was describing in Gen 1:2.  And so did Isaiah in chapter 34.  

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

and a modern (1970’s +) definition of words in a language that you do not speak.

Another amazing confusion on your part.  I haven't focused at all on what the English translations are.  I have focused where the 2 Hebrew words occur and what they describe.  And the Septuagint, written about 300 BC.  Yet, you keep harping on my using "modern translations" when that isn't even true.  So the problem of confusion is on you.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

 Ignoring statements of God to the contrary

I have proved that Ex 20:11 doesn't say what you keep claiming.  But stubborness remains.

Actually, Moses wrote about 1400 BC, Jeremiah quoted him around 600 BC and Isaiah wrote about 700 BC, and the Septuagint abouty 300 BC.  So your claims are false.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

There is no reasoning with you.

That would be true of yourself.  It is the translations outside of the Septuagint that failed to understand what Moses wrote.  

But you are free to believe whatever tickles your ears.  If you prefer an unreasonably young earth, go ahead.  The facts are against that view.

And you still haven't shown any damage to any doctrine by the earth being much older than Adam.  Only in your mind is there a problem.  But not in Scripture.

And your "explanation" of no contradiction between the YEC Gen 1:1,2 with Isa 45:18 fails completely.  You have to add words to make your "explanation" work.

That's not reasonable.

[NConly]

Over the next seven years, 47 scholars and theologians worked to translate the different books of the Bible: the Old Testament from Hebrew, the New Testament from Greek and the Apocrypha from Greek and Latin.

 How can it be that today we find they were ALL wrong?

[BeyondET]

6 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

evidence and facts that I have presented.  You quote the opinions of others, while I have quoted Scripture.

You quote Scripture then add your opinion and interpretation, that certainly isn't evidence or facts. Best you can do is say that's what I believe it's pointing too.

Edited October 31, 2024 by BeyondET

[BeyondET]

5 hours ago, NConly said:

Over the next seven years, 47 scholars and theologians worked to translate the different books of the Bible: the Old Testament from Hebrew, the New Testament from Greek and the Apocrypha from Greek and Latin.

 How can it be that today we find they were ALL wrong?

All wrong not at all, though the word is living and breathing everyday.