Mature Universe Theory

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  The Barbarian said:

Moses didn't interpret Genesis.

Did you figure that one out by yourself?  NOBODY ever claimed he did.

Even more interesting is the fact that neither Moses, Jeremiah or Isaiah got their writings copyrighted!!!!!

[The Barbarian]

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Even more interesting is the fact that neither Moses, Jeremiah or Isaiah got their writings copyrighted!!!!!

They didn't get RV_Wizard's permission, after all.

[RV_Wizard]

On 12/8/2024 at 12:56 PM, FreeGrace said:

Even more interesting is the fact that neither Moses, Jeremiah or Isaiah got their writings copyrighted!!!!!

So copyright laws are just another category you don't get.

The KJV is NOT copyrighted.  All newer versions are.  You can't get a copyright without making significant changes to the original.  

Revelations 22: 18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Modern versions of the Bible have made significant enough changes to the Bible to be able to register copyrights.  They do this because there is a lot of profit in printing Bibles.  Your entire argument is based on these modern corrupted versions.

You cannot be educated on this topic, apparently.

[RV_Wizard]

On 12/8/2024 at 10:19 AM, The Barbarian said:

You seem to have trouble making up your mind,

Are you even following this conversation?  Your comments make even less sense than usual.  We're discussing Genesis and you're talking about the disciples writing to the Gentiles in Greek.  Moses INTERPRETING Genesis?  He was the author.

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said:

Even more interesting is the fact that neither Moses, Jeremiah or Isaiah got their writings copyrighted!!!!!

So copyright laws are just another category you don't get.

Neither did Moses, Jeremiah or Isaiah.  I'm in pretty good company!

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The KJV is NOT copyrighted.  All newer versions are.  You can't get a copyright without making significant changes to the original.

OK, let's focus on your fav translation, the KJV.  Didn the Hebrew copy of copies have my 2 fav words (tohu wabohu) in Gen 1:2, Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11?   

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Revelations 22: 18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Modern versions of the Bible have made significant enough changes to the Bible to be able to register copyrights.  They do this because there is a lot of profit in printing Bibles.  Your entire argument is based on these modern corrupted versions.

Who says they are "corrupted" other than you?  Just because there are a variety of ways to communicate the VERY SAME MESSAGE doesn't mean a translation is corrupted.

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

You cannot be educated on this topic, apparently.

No, you are apparently immune to humor.  However, your constant harping on copyrights and Egyptian vs Syrian Hebrew manuscripts has absolutely NO BEARING on anything unless you can prove that "tohu wabohu" wasn't used by Moses in Gen 1:2 but was used in both Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11.

The problem you have is that you can't prove it.  In fact, the Hebrew "tohu wabohu" was used by Moses in Gen 1:2 AND also used by Jeremiah in 4:23 and Isaiah in 34:11.

Since the context in both Jeremiah and Isaiah is about the TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the land, we know that "tohu wabohu" describes DESTRUCTION, whereas those same 2 words in Gen 1:2 cannot possibly be describing original creation.

Now, focus, if you will:  Those 2 words cannot be used to describe both creation and destruction.  And you still haven't even come close to proving that the 2 words form a contronym, and CAN describe 2 OPPOSITE conditions.

Instead, all you've done is whine about copyrights, "corrupted versions" because of copyrights, and Egyptian vs Syrian Hebrew manuscripts.

You've thrown a lot of spaghetti against the wall, but so far none of it has stuck.

In the real world, where I live, 2 opposing ideas cannot both be true.

KJV Gen 1:1,2  in the beginning, God created (bara) the heavens and earth, and the earth was TOHU WABOHU.

Isa 45:18  God DID NOT create (bara) the earth TOHU WABOHU.

If such time that your eyes and ears are finally opened to let in some light, and you realize what "tohu wabohu" means and describes, your contradiction melts away quickly.

[RV_Wizard]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

 Didn the Hebrew copy of copies have my 2 fav words

Have you learned anything about references and quotes, yet?  Have you figured out yet that words can have both literal and figurative meanings?

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Who says they are "corrupted" other than you?

Editors changed the previous translation of Genesis 3:16 which said, "Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." The verse has now been changed to read, "Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you."

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Just because there are a variety of ways to communicate the VERY SAME MESSAGE doesn't mean a translation is corrupted.

Here are the sixteen whole verses that do not exist in the new (per)versions.:

Matthew 17:21: "Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."
Matthew 18:11: "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."
Matthew 23:14: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation."
Mark 7:16: "If any man have ears to hear, let him hear."
Mark 9:44: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Mark 9:46: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Mark 11:26: "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."
Mark 15:28: "And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors."
Luke 17:36: "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
John 5:4: "For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had."
Acts 8:37: "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Acts 15:34: "Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still."
Acts 24:7: "But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,"
Acts 28:29: "And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves."
Romans 16:24: "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."
I John 5:7: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

It's not the same message if you delete entire verses.  When one either adds to or subtracts from the Word of God, the resulting translation no longer represents the truth of God.

KJV: For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

ISV: "For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal life.

You REALLY can't see the differences?  All the angels are unique.  All humans are unique.  Jesus is Not God's unique son, He is God's only begotten son.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

In the real world, where I live, 2 opposing ideas cannot both be true.

Exodus 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.  Did God fly the Israelites out on the wings of eagles, or did God use illustrative language?

Because you can't understand how allusions and quotes work, this entire conversation is a waste of time.

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  FreeGrace said:

 Didn the Hebrew copy of copies have my 2 fav words

Have you learned anything about references and quotes, yet?  Have you figured out yet that words can have both literal and figurative meanings?

Oh yes, you've been so very helpful!

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Editors changed the previous translation of Genesis 3:16 which said, "Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." The verse has now been changed to read, "Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you."

So what?  Translators don't always agree on how to translate some sentences.  How is any of this whining relevant to what Moses, Jeremiah and Isaiah wrote?

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Here are the sixteen whole verses that do not exist in the new (per)versions.:

But, do you know why?  Some translations used manuscripts that were written later than earlier copies.  And these copiers would either add or remove some words.  I thought that was common knowledge.  So it's always best to have translations of earlier manuscripts.  

In my study Bible, there are several places that include these words:  "The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have specific passage ."

For example, Mark 16:9-20 and John 7:53-8:11.

Your only defense for your refusal to accept the FACT that "tohu wabohu" describes total destruction rather than original creation is to show that either the 2 words ARE a contronym or that the 2 words weren't used in Gen 1:2.  Period.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Matthew 17:21: "Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."
Matthew 18:11: "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."
Matthew 23:14: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation."
Mark 7:16: "If any man have ears to hear, let him hear."
Mark 9:44: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Mark 9:46: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Mark 11:26: "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."
Mark 15:28: "And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors."
Luke 17:36: "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
John 5:4: "For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had."
Acts 8:37: "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Acts 15:34: "Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still."
Acts 24:7: "But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,"
Acts 28:29: "And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves."
Romans 16:24: "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."
I John 5:7: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Then why don't you just quit reading the Bible if you are so bothered by such changes?

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

It's not the same message if you delete entire verses.  When one either adds to or subtracts from the Word of God, the resulting translation no longer represents the truth of God.

How about just focusing on the use of "tohu wabohu", and ALL 10 occurrences of "tohu" in the OT.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

KJV: For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

ISV: "For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal life.

You REALLY can't see the differences?

And here I thought all along that you were mesmerized by the KJV and here you give an example of where the thundering diction of the KJV blew it.  Jesus' birth WAS unique, since He is the ONLY person born apart from a man's "participation".  And the Bible does teach that, so those who know MORE of the Bible don't have a problem with the KJV about that verse.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  All the angels are unique.  All humans are unique.  Jesus is Not God's unique son, He is God's only begotten son.

Oh, I see.  You favor the poor translation.  I have only one son.  "Begotten" by me.  So what?  All you are doing is throwing spaghetti against your wall.  What a mess at your house!!

Have you ever considered trying to nail jello to your wall?  That is, if there are any blank spaces left, given all that spaghetti residue that is still there?

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Exodus 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.  Did God fly the Israelites out on the wings of eagles, or did God use illustrative language?

If you have to ask just ridiculous questions, there is no point in responding.

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Because you can't understand how allusions and quotes work, this entire conversation is a waste of time.

You have no idea what I don't understand.  You just keep repeating that to demonize me.  The whole problem is in your own head.  

Either you just can't actually understand the problem that "tohu wabohu" creates when thought to be in a verse that describes original creation while it also describes total destruction in the only other 2 passages in the OT, OR OR OR you DO understand the conflict and contradiction but are quite comfortable in denying it just to preserve your personal preference of a young earth vs an old earth.

You are free to have it your way.  One thing is clear, though.  In eternity, all your silly questions will be answered and you will know ALL the details of how and why the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland (tohu wabohu).  I guarantee it.

And without your sin nature, you won't even be embarrassed by the knowledge of how stubborn and resistant to the truth you were on earth.

[BeyondET]

On 10/14/2024 at 2:53 PM, RV_Wizard said:

On day four, all the stars visible from earth were visible in an instant.  With science this is not possible.  With God, all things are possible.  The universe, like the earth, like man, was created in its mature state.  Not all will believe.  Many will be fooled into thinking hat the laws which govern the creation had authority over the Creator.  As Paul writes, ...who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

God told us how He created the world.  Like the rest of His word, we can accept it or reject it.  Neither has any bearing on its validity.  God's word is truth, whether you believe it or not.

Stars are not the lights in the firmament according to scripture. After placing lights in the firmament, then says He made the stars as well. There's a distinction between all of them. The light, expanse lights, greater lights, stars.

Genesis 1

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to distinguish between the day and the night, and let them be signs to mark the seasons and days and years. 15 And let them serve as lights in the expanse of the sky to shine upon the earth.” And it was so.

16 God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night. And He made the stars as well.

 

What Paul wrote is a bit off topic, that was about humanbody desires lust etc., dishonering the creature.

Romans 1

24 Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity for the dishonoring of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is forever worthy of praise! Amen

Edited December 12, 2024 by BeyondET

[RV_Wizard]

On 12/11/2024 at 8:43 PM, BeyondET said:

What Paul wrote is a bit off topic, that was about humanbody desires lust etc., dishonering the creature.

Many things in the Bible have meanings on several levels.  Whether one loves the creature rather than the Creator or the creation rather than the Creator, the idolatry is the same.  Putting the science of man above the word of God is idolatry.  Using science to discredit the Bible is serving a false god.  As Christians, we should know that the word of God is the only definable truth in the world.  The earth and the universe will pass away, but God's word will NEVER pass away.

[BeyondET]

On 12/18/2024 at 6:39 AM, RV_Wizard said:

Many things in the Bible have meanings on several levels.  Whether one loves the creature rather than the Creator or the creation rather than the Creator, the idolatry is the same.  Putting the science of man above the word of God is idolatry.  Using science to discredit the Bible is serving a false god.  As Christians, we should know that the word of God is the only definable truth in the world.  The earth and the universe will pass away, but God's word will NEVER pass away.

Indeed, like you saying all the stars visible from earth, yet the bible doesn't refer to all of them as stars in Genesis 1.

Learning more of a vast universe isn't idolatry.

Edited December 19, 2024 by BeyondET