When do you think an individual's life begins?

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, The_Patriot21 said:

Well, you seem to be inferring a lot of your own beliefs into this, but I'm going to point out one thing.

Were you reading my post??  Or someone else's.  Because all I did was show what Gen 2:7 said about WHEN Adam became "a living being", ala human being.

If you disagree with my view of the verse, please show me were I'm wrong.

1 hour ago, The_Patriot21 said:

In the case of the machines "keeping people alive" argument, there have been documented cases of people being on those machines for years, with no brain activity, and then them regaining consciousness.

I was in the medical field for over 40 years and have never heard that.  Could you provide evidence please?  And when the EEG is flat, the person is diagnosed as brain dead, and is taken off those machines.  The only reason bodies are kept alive is to preserve organs for donors.  I highly doubt that any brain dead body is kept alive for years.  So please provide evidence for that.

1 hour ago, The_Patriot21 said:

It's not up to us to decide when our soul leaves the body or not

And I never said it was up to us.  All I know is what the Bible says, and James 2:26 says that the body without the soul/spirit is DEAD.  

1 hour ago, The_Patriot21 said:

that's God's, and it's nothing more then human arrogance to assume otherwise.

you can cease with the "human arrogance" dance.  Please don't be condescending.  I'm waiting for the evidence for your claim that brain dead bodies are kept on machings for years.

1 hour ago, The_Patriot21 said:

You can of course believe what you want

Well, thank you for your permission.  But I don't need it.  I believe what the Bible says.  And I use the "Berean verification (of truth) method" to determine whether what others post is true.  Acts 17:11

1 hour ago, The_Patriot21 said:

I'm not going to try and talk you out of it, I've learned a long time ago not to waste my time arguing something I know to be true with those who refuse to see it.

Rather than just pre-judge anyone, provide what you think is true.  All you're doing is putting up an excuse for not having evidence for any claims that you may make.

Let's see your claims.

1 hour ago, The_Patriot21 said:

But neither am I going to change my stance on the matter. Life, both Spiritual and physical, begins at conception, and continues until such time as God decides it's time.

Have a good day.

You can believe whatever you want.  I'm going with the pattern gave when He created Adam.  It makes perfect sense.  And putting the soul/spirit into a fertilized egg makes no sense at all.  And you haven't proven otherwise.

[Luther]

12 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Interesting Topic for sure but one we can only speculate.....according to Gods Word we Understand that no one ever WAS before they were born only Jesus Was not Created He IS just as the Great I AM IS and yet His Physical Being was born just as ours is but the Word of God also Tells us that Adam was not Adam until He Was Given the Breath of Life.....So would we say that until breath enters our physical bodies we have no consciousness or "soul"....Physics does not consider a "soul" therefore science cannot answer this question  ... God Can ....so looking to the Scriptures that is what we find

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis 1%3A1%2CJohn 8%3A58%2CJohn 17%3A5%2CJohn 17%3A24%2C1 John 1%3A1%2CRevelation 1%3A8&version=NIV

 

Genesis 2:7

"The Lord God formed a man from the dust of the earth and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being".

 

According to "science" the earliest brain activity recorded was around a 45 day old fetus in the womb......But we Know we are more than a body and a soul,we have a spirit our spirit is Made Alive in Christ Jesus     Very hard to wrap a CHRISTIAN head around the Mysteries of God     Is Gods Breath of Life our spirit after all and not much to do with consciousness at all,the carnal mind in which we "think" with ?

 Yes ,Adam and Eve surely died Just as God Said they would if they ate of the forbidden fruit.....

 

Hmmm. Perhaps the body of Christ was always with the Father throughout "time", made in His image and likeness, always one with Him (Jn. 17). This  Earth was to be our permanent abode until sin. In order to re-unite With the Father we have to wait for our new sinless bodies. Only our soul is perfect at this time, being born of the Spirit. I don't believe the unsaved ever had a past with God, just as they won't have a future with Him. Of course we want everyone to see the kingdom of God ( including ourselves!). 

Edited December 2, 2024 by Luther
Added to it

[Luther]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Were you reading my post??  Or someone else's.  Because all I did was show what Gen 2:7 said about WHEN Adam became "a living being", ala human being.

If you disagree with my view of the verse, please show me were I'm wrong.

I was in the medical field for over 40 years and have never heard that.  Could you provide evidence please?  And when the EEG is flat, the person is diagnosed as brain dead, and is taken off those machines.  The only reason bodies are kept alive is to preserve organs for donors.  I highly doubt that any brain dead body is kept alive for years.  So please provide evidence for that.

And I never said it was up to us.  All I know is what the Bible says, and James 2:26 says that the body without the soul/spirit is DEAD.  

you can cease with the "human arrogance" dance.  Please don't be condescending.  I'm waiting for the evidence for your claim that brain dead bodies are kept on machings for years.

Well, thank you for your permission.  But I don't need it.  I believe what the Bible says.  And I use the "Berean verification (of truth) method" to determine whether what others post is true.  Acts 17:11

Rather than just pre-judge anyone, provide what you think is true.  All you're doing is putting up an excuse for not having evidence for any claims that you may make.

Let's see your claims.

You can believe whatever you want.  I'm going with the pattern gave when He created Adam.  It makes perfect sense.  And putting the soul/spirit into a fertilized egg makes no sense at all.  And you haven't proven otherwise.

Luke 1:41

And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

 

[FreeGrace]

46 minutes ago, Luther said:

 

FreeGrace said:

Were you reading my post??  Or someone else's.  Because all I did was show what Gen 2:7 said about WHEN Adam became "a living being", ala human being.

Luke 1:41

And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

From:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK470566/

Fetal movements felt by pregnant women are a sign that the fetus is growing in size and strength. The mother is usually the first to feel these movements, which can later be perceived by others. Women are often taught by their health care provider to monitor or be aware of the movements of the fetus.

Physical life in the uterus does not prove nor even suggest that the soul/spirit is present.  

When a mother-to-be gets excited, fetal movement can increase, such as what Luke 1:41 says.

If you believe that God places the soul/spirit at conception or just really early on, can you provide a reasonable answer as to why an un- or under-developed zygote would need to have a soul/spirit?

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Luther said:

Hmmm. Perhaps the body of Christ was always with the Father throughout "time", made in His image and likeness, always one with Him (Jn. 17).

When the Trinity said "let US make man in OUR image" THEY were referring to the Trinity; Father, Son and Spirit.  Man was created with body, soul and spirit.  1 Thess 5:23.  That is the image of God.  The death of Adam "on the day" that he ate the fruit, his human spirit died (spiritual death), which separated him from the Lord, and is why he and the woman hid when the Lord came to the Garden in the cool of the evening.  They had no capacity to initiate conversation with Him.  He clearly could respond to the Lord's initiation.

1 hour ago, Luther said:

This  Earth was to be our permanent abode until sin. In order to re-unite With the Father we have to wait for our new sinless bodies.

The earth has always been our permanent abode.  God's plan from eternity past includes the passing away of the present earth and a new earth appearing.  Rev 21.

All believers will receive their glorified (sinless) body "when He comes" back at the Second Advent.  

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

1 hour ago, Luther said:

Only our soul is perfect at this time, being born of the Spirit.

The soul isn't "born of the Spirit".  The dead human spirit that all humans are born with (physically alive but spiritually dead) is born AGAIN, or RE-generated, or "made alive" (all biblical descriptions) when a person believes in the finished work of Christ on the cross on their behalf.

This is why all people need to be born again.  In order to receive the gift of eternal life.  John 3:16, 5:24, 10:28

1 hour ago, Luther said:

I don't believe the unsaved ever had a past with God, just as they won't have a future with Him. Of course we want everyone to see the kingdom of God ( including ourselves!). 

The Bible doesn't say when God creates the immaterial soul/spirit.  We only know that He places the soul/spirit into a physical body and then we have a human being.  According to the pattern of Gen 2:7.

[Luther]

1 minute ago, FreeGrace said:

From:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK470566/

Fetal movements felt by pregnant women are a sign that the fetus is growing in size and strength. The mother is usually the first to feel these movements, which can later be perceived by others. Women are often taught by their health care provider to monitor or be aware of the movements of the fetus.

Physical life in the uterus does not prove nor even suggest that the soul/spirit is present.  

When a mother-to-be gets excited, fetal movement can increase, such as what Luke 1:41 says.

If you believe that God places the soul/spirit at conception or just really early on, can you provide a reasonable answer as to why an un- or under-developed zygote would need to have a soul/spirit?

I believe that our soul comes from God and is placed " into" the very moment of conception. It's the miracle of life. That would be the most "logical" time , when life is conceived. I just don't see it like the world does, playing this political/ philosophical game of  " when life begins". 

[Hinds Feet]

Again, great discussion.  Different things have been brought into the conversation, namely God's omniscience.  For this particular topic, I would say this isn't relevant concerning when a person's life/existence begins.  Yes, God knew us before our existence.  I would even say why wouldn't He know us?  He is our Creator.  Though I will say from what has been said concerning God "knowing us", we might have a different take on what that means.  Nonetheless, it isn't relevant to our contemplation concerning when life begins.  I assume we agree we all had a beginning?

 

On 12/1/2024 at 2:11 PM, FreeGrace said:

There are actually two types of "life" that need to be defined.  First, there is physiologic life, and that is represented in Gen 2:7 - Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Red words refer to physiologic life, or what is studied as biology.  I believe it is well known that a person's soul/spirit can leave the body, but science is able to keep the body alive (biologically functioning for donor use).  But is that what we know as "human life"?  No, it isn't.  The blue words refer to the immaterial (soul/spirit).  So there is biologic life and soul/spirit life.  It is when the two are joined that the combination is called "a living being", the green words.  

So a "human being" included body and soul/spirit.  Material and immaterial.  One without the other isn't a human being.

Does the Bible identify when God places the soul/spirit into the biological life?  If there is evidence, ok, but without clear biblical evidence, it is just an opinion.  And one must be able to explain why God would place the soul/spirit into non functioning biological life?  What point would there be?

There is a point before which a biological life-form cannot survive outside the uterus.  That would indicate that the the soul/spirit hasn't been placed yet.  

And, the Bible deals with "man" as being "out from the womb".  So, if a preemie is born and survives, obviously there is a person.  

It seems more logical to me that God places the soul/spirit when the fetus is being born, or just before.  Any time before that seems illogical.

Unfortunately, the question cannot be accurately answered at this time.  I am sure in eternity these kind of questions will be answered.

Yeah I put more of an emphasis on our spiritual start.  I see that as our core being.  Even after our body physically dies, our spirit goes to either heaven or hell.  In both places, we are conscious with just our spirit. (Of course this is the view most believers have concerning what happens when the body dies.  There are those who believe in soul sleep, where our bodies return to dust and our soul/spirit returns to God.  In this view, our soul/spirit is nothing more than a type of "force" or "energy" supplied by God.)


As to my speculation on when God may put the soul/spirit into the body, yes, its just that.  Its based on the idea that the life of a person, is in the blood.  Now what I would say, even though this is speculation, its pretty good speculation!  Why?  Well, spiritually speaking, we know blood is very key in terms of sacrifice for sin.  We know when Cain killed Abel, God said Abel's blood was crying out from the ground to Him.  Jesus shed His blood, and it washes away our sin.  His blood spoke better things than Abel's blood. (Abel's blood cried out for justice/vengeance.  Jesus' blood cries out for grace/mercy)  There is a lot of spiritual ramifications concerning blood throughout the Bible.  


All that said, I would still wager God puts the spirit of a person in their bodies, before they are outside of the womb.  Just based on what we see from ultrasound images.  The fetus moves around, sucks their thumb, and do baby things as far as we can tell.  We know from Scripture Esau and Jacob were wrestling with each other in their mother's womb.  So I would say there is life there before birth. (spiritual life as well as the body)  In Exodus 21:22-23 it reads........

"If men who are fighting strike a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband demands and as the court allows.  But if a serious injury results, then you must require a life for a life"

Here we read in the laws of God, if a baby is harmed in the womb, particularly if the baby comes out dead, then the person must pay with their own life.  Life for life.  So I would say God places the spirit of the child in their forming body.

[Luther]

3 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

When the Trinity said "let US make man in OUR image" THEY were referring to the Trinity; Father, Son and Spirit.  Man was created with body, soul and spirit.  1 Thess 5:23.  That is the image of God.  The death of Adam "on the day" that he ate the fruit, his human spirit died (spiritual death), which separated him from the Lord, and is why he and the woman hid when the Lord came to the Garden in the cool of the evening.  They had no capacity to initiate conversation with Him.  He clearly could respond to the Lord's initiation.

The earth has always been our permanent abode.  God's plan from eternity past includes the passing away of the present earth and a new earth appearing.  Rev 21.

All believers will receive their glorified (sinless) body "when He comes" back at the Second Advent.  

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The soul isn't "born of the Spirit".  The dead human spirit that all humans are born with (physically alive but spiritually dead) is born AGAIN, or RE-generated, or "made alive" (all biblical descriptions) when a person believes in the finished work of Christ on the cross on their behalf.

This is why all people need to be born again.  In order to receive the gift of eternal life.  John 3:16, 5:24, 10:28

The Bible doesn't say when God creates the immaterial soul/spirit.  We only know that He places the soul/spirit into a physical body and then we have a human being.  According to the pattern of Gen 2:7.

Have to push back a little. When we love the Lord with all of our heart, mind and soul,  our spirit essence is in agreement. The "old man" would be the old soul. A  "new creature" in Christ is a new creation, a new soul....born of the Holy Spirit. Sure they are two distinct components. But both are made new in salvation. 

[Luther]

21 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

When the Trinity said "let US make man in OUR image" THEY were referring to the Trinity; Father, Son and Spirit.  Man was created with body, soul and spirit.  1 Thess 5:23.  That is the image of God.  The death of Adam "on the day" that he ate the fruit, his human spirit died (spiritual death), which separated him from the Lord, and is why he and the woman hid when the Lord came to the Garden in the cool of the evening.  They had no capacity to initiate conversation with Him.  He clearly could respond to the Lord's initiation.

The earth has always been our permanent abode.  God's plan from eternity past includes the passing away of the present earth and a new earth appearing.  Rev 21.

All believers will receive their glorified (sinless) body "when He comes" back at the Second Advent.  

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The soul isn't "born of the Spirit".  The dead human spirit that all humans are born with (physically alive but spiritually dead) is born AGAIN, or RE-generated, or "made alive" (all biblical descriptions) when a person believes in the finished work of Christ on the cross on their behalf.

This is why all people need to be born again.  In order to receive the gift of eternal life.  John 3:16, 5:24, 10:28

The Bible doesn't say when God creates the immaterial soul/spirit.  We only know that He places the soul/spirit into a physical body and then we have a human being.  According to the pattern of Gen 2:7.

 21 minutes ago, FreeGrace said: "The soul isn't "born of the Spirit"

But you would have to agree that something happens to the soul when you become saved. 

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Luther said:

I believe that our soul comes from God and is placed " into" the very moment of conception. It's the miracle of life. That would be the most "logical" time , when life is conceived.

Other than just saying so, why is the soul in a zygote "the most logical time"??

Why w0uldn't Gen 2:7 be the most logical order of things when determining when a human life begins?

1 hour ago, Luther said:

I just don't see it like the world does, playing this political/ philosophical game of  " when life begins". 

There is no need to be political or philosophical since we have God's Word, which shows the order of things when God created the first human being.