Selective Rapture

[Feedmysheep]

<<Jesus's disciples knew He was the promised Messiah long before Ch. 24,>> 

I fully agree. But their questions in chapter 24 are about the sign of His coming and things related to the end of the age.

<< when Jesus asked, "whom say ye that I am. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Messiah, the Son of the living God."  (Matt. 16:15-16).   Therefore, they weren't waiting for another; they knew the promised Messiah was standing in front of them.>>

 No one is saying that they were asking about the coming of ANOTHER. They were asking about His coming and things related to the consummation of the age.

 Nothing I wrote suggests that the twelve disciples were not believers in Christ as the Messiah of Israel. Nothing I wrote robs them of being constituents of the Christian ONE BODY in Christ - the church.

What I wrote was His reply thier their questi0ns along their dual statuses.  

<<The disciples have one identity, which is born again in Christ.>>

Among those who are born again in Christ with that unique identity there are still distinctions in quality of Christian living.

For example, to the Christians in Corinth Paul said some were APPROVED in thier conduct and some were not. And because of this their appeared, unfortuantely, undeniable distinction. 

For first of all, when you come together in the church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and some part of it I believe.  For there must even be parties among you, that those who are approved may become manifest among you. (1 Cor. 11:18,19)

Were they ALL born again?  Yes.  That fact that they were all regenerated saved people did not negate that there was a manifestation among them who were proper in thier conduct at the Lord's table from those who were improper.

This manifestation of those approved as to their conduct revealed a division to exist.  It did not mean God loved one group more. Nor did it mean one group was of the Body of Christ and the other group was not. It meant some overcame and some remained defeated. And this distinction was manifested by the Holy Spirit. 

There is no ground for pride here. There is the occasion for realism. All are born again / saved / redeemed / in posession of eternal life YET some are manifested by the Spirit as sub-normal in their testimony and others as normal in their testimony.

Back to the twelve disciples then.  Christ's speaking to them as to their status of members of the church was in view to them being overcoming and victorious rather than defeated and immature.  You cannot blur this warning for them to be watching as a violation f the principle that there is one church of Jews and Gentiles made into one Body in Christ.

<<There is but one parousia, >>

There is one parousia. But there is an aspect which is the "appearing of His parousia" and an aspect which is a secret parousia.

The beginning of this parousia is the secretive sudden pre-tribulation rapture of

A.) deceased overcomers (man-child) and

B.) living overcomers (firstfruits).

Both these groups will be resurrected and raptured or simply raptured before the 1,260 days of the GT.

The remainder of both deceased believers and living believers will be raptured at the end of the GT. ALL are eternally redeemed. 

The coming of a thief in the night is secretive and without a loud previous annoucement. The thief comes to steal the precious things.  Of course all redeemed human beings are precious to the Lord. But there is a further preciousness of LIVING day by day unto the Lord. And God has His right to temporarily manifest to the world with whom He is pleased as approved in this living distinct from those who He deems are not approved in this. 

"Until we all arrive"  means we all will arrive. It doesn't mean necessarily that we all will arrive at the same time.

 . . . unto the building up of the Body of Christ,

Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, (Eph. 4:12b,13)

Edited December 27, 2024 by Feedmysheep

[BornAgain490]

15 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

This will not work so well. 

Not for the dispensational pretrib rapture theology. But it is absolutely biblically sound. 

 

16 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

to be raptured is the response of obedience rather than an automatic matter having nothing to do with heeding the Lord's warning.

The catching away or rapture is for all that are in Christ. 

All Old Testament saints that died having faith in God's promised Seed, which is Christ, are in Christ. All New Testament saints that died having  faith Christ are in Christ. All saints alive at Christ's parousia are in Christ.  Everyone in Christ are caught up (raptured), the dead in Christ rise first, then the alive in Christ join them in the air to meet the Lord to accompany Him to the earth. 

28 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Would you agree that "these things" refer to the things of the great tribulation. Yes? No?

The one in Christ is he that walks after the Spirit and minds the things of the Spirit. He will watch and pray always that he may be counted worthy to escape the tribulation and temptations that will overtake those no in Christ but who walk after the flesh and mind the things of the flesh.  

The word "escape", as used in Luke 21:36, does not refer to a catching out of or rapture from, but a strengthening that comes only to those who are in Christ, so as to endure through suffering, trials and tribulations. 

39 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

2.) Would you agree that the exhortation to "be watchful at every time" is something a Christian COULD do or NEGLECT to do?

If one is in Christ then they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and are thereby led by the Holy Spirit. Of course they would be always watching and praying as our Lord has commanded. 

Those that are not in Christ are not watching and praying, and are  them that are caught unaware, such as by a thief at night. 

45 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

3.)  Check your experience with dear Christian brothers and sisters you know. Is it not a fact that SOME live watchful lives in Christ and some do not?

Not everyone who says they are Christian are indeed Christian. Only those who've been born again are in Christ. Those in Christ are always in Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise.  They are justified by faith, sanctified by the Holy Spirit, adopted into the family of God as sons and daughters, and every one of them will be either resurrected or caught up to meet the Lord at his parousia. 

49 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 I think if we are realistic we have to recognize that not all dear Christians automatically live spiritually vigilant and watchful lives in Christ up to the degree their conscience informs them they should.

Only those born again in Christ will walk after the Spirit and mind the things of the Spirit.  Those that are walking after the flesh minding the things of the flesh are not in Christ and cannot please God. 

51 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

4.)  If Luke 31:26 means that it is automatic that all born again people will be counted worthy to escape the things of the coming great tribulation, then WHAT NEED would there be to vigilantly WATCH that you be found worthy? 

Ask yourself: has the born again in Christ suffered at all?   Of course he and she has, since the very beginning. He and she has been brutally tortured, raped, butchered, beheaded, burnt alive, feed to wild beasts, etc, and these things continue for the born again in Christ to this very day in some parts of the world. 

The megale thlipsis (great tribulation) is coming, and we can see its creeping effect in the west where all things Christ-related are hated by powerful elites and organizations alike.

It may be a while, perhaps another generation or two, but the tribulation that the born again in Christ are experiencing in China, North Korea, Nigeria, Chad, Pakistan, India, even England, and Canada, will be in our communities in the USA.  

I hold the words of Jesus near and dear to my heart:  "In the world ye shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."  (John 16:33).

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

The unbeliever does not account Jesus Christ as his or her Lord. Yet Jesus says " you do not know on what day YOUR LORD comes." 

Jesus is reinforcing His command to those in Christ to be watchful and be ready, because before He returns there will be widespread and intense persecution (megele thlipsis or great tribulation).  This exhortation is not only for first century believers, but to all future believers born again in Christ to be ready to suffer for His namesake. 

 

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

It is not an exhortation to the world in general. It is an exhortation to His followers, His disciples who confess that Jesus is their Lord. 

Jesus spoke this exhortation to His disciples, but it was written for all who are in Christ: our exhortation as well.  And since it is written in scripture, it is the word of God and part of the good news for the unbelieving world as well.  For faith comes by hearing the word of God. (Romans 10:17).

[Feedmysheep]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Seriously?  Please keep reading the text.  v.16-20

So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

How does a winepress of God's wrath relate to a resurrection of believers and trip to heaven?

Just because the Bible uses "firstfruits" in Rev 14 doesn't mean EVERY use of "firstfruits" in the NT refers to a pre-trib rapture.  iow, there is no relevance between HARVEST and RESURRECTION.  Zero.

And there is no clear indication that Rev 14 is even about a resurrection with trip to heaven.  

Further, 1 Cor 15:23 refutes any notion of more than 1 resurrection, which is "when He comes" and will be for "those who belong to Him".  Couldn't be more clear.  This 1 verse trumps every claim about multiple resurrections/raptures.

<<Seriously?  Please keep reading the text.  v.16-20>>

Chapter 14 is about three reapings according to thier ripeness for reaping. There is first a reaping of EARLY ripened fruit of believers. Then there is a reaping of latter ripened believers. And lastly there is a gathering and treading of evil ripened grapes. You wish to collapse the reaping of Firstfruits with reaping of Harvest as happening at the same time. 

The typology of Leviticus 23:10-11 and Exodus 23:19 we should take to relate to rapture.

The early overcomers will be the first-ripe ones in God's field. These will be reaped to be firstfruits to the Lamb before the harvest majority of the crop.

The place of the two reapings are not the same also. The firstfruits of the good land were brought into the temple. of God before the harvest. So also in Revelation 14 the firstfruits are taken to the third heavens. But the harvest is taken to the clouds in the air. This should correspond to the first ripened crop taken to the temple of God. But the latter are placed in the barn. 

Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them, When you come into the land which I am giving you, and reap its harvest, then you shall bring the sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest; And he shall wave the sheaf before Jehovah for your acceptance; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it. (Lev. 23:10-11)

The first of the firstfruits of your ground you shall bring into the house of Jehovah your God. (Exo. 23:19)

<<How does a winepress of God's wrath relate to a resurrection of believers and trip to heaven?>>

The gathering of the grapes of wrath is not either the rapture of early firstfruits or harvest. The gathering of the grapes of wrath in verses 17-20 concerns enemies of God (unbelievers) who are following Antichrist.  This is not a rapture though it is a gathering together of all these evil ones in one place for Christ to slay them all together.

And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

And another angel came out of the altar, he who has authority over fire, and he cried with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripened.

And the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth and cast it into the great winepress of the fury of God.

And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress up to the bridles of the horses for a thousand six hundred stadia. (Rev. 14:17-20) 

This must not be confused with either the rapture of Firstfruits (vs. 1-5) or rapture of Harvest (vs. 14-16) 

Firstfruits & Harvest - SAVED people

Grapes of Wrath - UNSAVED enemies of Christ. 

(I will double check to see if I made a typo) 

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<Interesting.  Not even one verse to back up the claim about a so-called "selective rapture".>>

By now you may have noticed my post with biblical support about rapture of Firstfruits being before rapture of Harvest in Revelation 14.

What specific verse(s) refer to a resurrection and trip to heaven in Rev 14?  I don't see any.  Thanks.

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<The real issue is about resurrection rather than rapture.  And the Bible is clear about how many resurrections there will be.>>

I think the real issue with rapture is that God dispenses His life into man for GROWTH leading to maturity and culmination.

I don't see any relevance between resurrection/rapture with spiritual growth.  Could you elaborate, please?

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Notice that Christ spoke of the GROWTH of the seed of divine life in stages unto a climax of reaping the Harvest. 

And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth,And sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and lengthens — how, he does not know. The earth bears fruit by itself: first a blade, then an ear, then full grain in the ear.

But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come. (Mark 4:26-29)

Again, there is no relevance between agricultural harvests and the resurrection of believers. 

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

 You see the kingdom has stages from planting through successive growth stages climaxing in maturity for reaping.

Where does one "see the kingdom having stages"?

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

What is missed by mainstream Christianity is that to be born again is not merely a ticket reading "Admit One" to Heaven. It is the initiation of the implanted life of God in man and not the climax of its maturity.

Spiritual growth is the main theme of all the epistles, obviously.  But to be born again is to put your trust alone in the finished work of Christ for salvation.  Why do you seem to think spiritual growth has any relevance to entering heaven?

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

  The parable of Mark 4:26-29 as well as other parables and plain teaching indicate to be regenerated is only the beginning. The SEED of God must grow, spread its influence, and permeate its life in the "soil" of man's soul.  The proper rapture / resurrection is the maturing of this implanted life rather than the mere inception of divine life.

Right.  Being born again is parallel to being born.  Both require growth after birth to be functional.

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<First, the Bible teaches that there will be a resurrection (singular) of the saved and a resurrection (singular) of the unsaved.>>

This may be generally true. But even among the saved there is a resurrection and rapture prior to the 1,260 days of the GT and a resurrection and rapture at the end of the 1,260 days.  Both groups are saved. But both groups' rapture is seperated by at least 1,260 days.

1 Cor 15:23 isn't "generally true".  It is BIBLICALLY TRUE.  And following you "general" comment your statements actually contradict what is clearly taught in that verse.  What gives? 

And, why didn't you provide verses that support each of your claims about the resurrections before and after the 3.5 years?

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

In your next post to me please tell me who you think the sign of the man-child raptured in Revelation 12 before the GT signifies.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12:5)

Seems pretty obvious to me.  Jesus Christ, who ascended to heaven following His resurrection.  If you disagree, who do you think is being referenced?

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

This rapture of an entity called "man-child" is followed by a period of 1,260 days of persecution of God's saints left upon the earth.

So you think "man-child" is a group of people???  Why?  The text makes clear it is Jesus Christ Himself.

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

The crucial question here is who does this "man-child" refer to. And what scriptural support do you have for identifiying who this entity is?  For this entity is resurrected and raptured to the throne of God before other saints of God are resurrected and raptured.

Right.  This is supported by 1 Cor 15:23, where Jesus Christ is the "firstfruits", meaning the FIRST human to receive a glorified and immortal resurrection body.  At the Second Advent all saved people (those who belong to Him) will receive theirs.  1 Thess 4:13-17, 1 Cor 15:23, 1 Cor 15:52.

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

  This would mean all saved are not resurrected and raptured at one time. Am I right?

1 Cor 15:23 is right.  "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes".  Not hard to figure out who the "those" are;  EVERY saved person in history.  And "when He comes" is easily understood as the Second Advent.

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

 The typical explanation I usually get is that the man-child is the individual Jesus. But the plural pronouns "THEY" and "THIER" and "THEM" in verses 10,11 indicate more than ONE individual has overcome to be resurrected and raptured.

Since Scripture cannot contradict itself, the ONLY understanding of 1 Cor 15:23 is that ALL saved people will be resurrected at the Second Advent.  There is no room for other views.

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death. (Rev. 12:10,11)

Pretty obvious, to me anyway.  The "loud voice in heaven" would be all the saints who have died through the ages and are in heaven awaiting their trip to earth to receive their resurrection bodies.  That would be the "they" and "them".  

[FreeGrace]

5 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<Seriously?  Please keep reading the text.  v.16-20>>

Chapter 14 is about three reapings according to thier ripeness for reaping. There is first a reaping of EARLY ripened fruit of believers. Then there is a reaping of latter ripened believers. And lastly there is a gathering and treading of evil ripened grapes. You wish to collapse the reaping of Firstfruits with reaping of Harvest as happening at the same time.

If you believe this, then you HAVE TO ignore or reject the very clear wording of 1 Cor 15:23.  There can be no compromise here.

5 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

The typology of Leviticus 23:10-11 and Exodus 23:19 we should take to relate to rapture.

Why "should" we?  There isn't ANYTHING in the OT that speaks to rapture.

Ex 23:19 is about agriculture harvests.  NOT end time resurrection/rapture.

Lev 23:10-11 is about the FEAST of firstfruits, again, NOT end time resurrection/rapture.

5 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

The early overcomers will be the first-ripe ones in God's field. These will be reaped to be firstfruits to the Lamb before the harvest majority of the crop.

Why?  There are no verses that teach this.

5 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

The place of the two reapings are not the same also. The firstfruits of the good land were brought into the temple. of God before the harvest.

None of this is relevant to end times.  

5 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

So also in Revelation 14 the firstfruits are taken to the third heavens. But the harvest is taken to the clouds in the air. This should correspond to the first ripened crop taken to the temple of God. But the latter are placed in the barn. 

It would be helpful to include specific verse #s with your comments.  I find nothing about the "3rd heavens" or any harvest "to the clouds".  I did find where the son of man was sitting on a cloud.

5 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them, When you come into the land which I am giving you, and reap its harvest, then you shall bring the sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest; And he shall wave the sheaf before Jehovah for your acceptance; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it. (Lev. 23:10-11)

The first of the firstfruits of your ground you shall bring into the house of Jehovah your God. (Exo. 23:19)

Nothing more here than agricultural harvests.

5 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<How does a winepress of God's wrath relate to a resurrection of believers and trip to heaven?>>

The gathering of the grapes of wrath is not either the rapture of early firstfruits or harvest. The gathering of the grapes of wrath in verses 17-20 concerns enemies of God (unbelievers) who are following Antichrist.  This is not a rapture though it is a gathering together of all these evil ones in one place for Christ to slay them all together.

And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

And another angel came out of the altar, he who has authority over fire, and he cried with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripened.

And the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth and cast it into the great winepress of the fury of God.

And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress up to the bridles of the horses for a thousand six hundred stadia. (Rev. 14:17-20)

All I read is about sharp sickles and harvesting, which ends with God's winepress of wrath.  Nothing about taking resurrected believers to heaven.

5 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 This must not be confused with either the rapture of Firstfruits (vs. 1-5) or rapture of Harvest (vs. 14-16)

Seems all of this in Rev 14 is quite open to people's own "interpretation".  I see nothing clearly taught here.  But 1 Cor 15:23 is very clear and straightforward.  And refutes any notions of more than a single resurrection for all believers, occcuring at the Second Advent.

5 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 Firstfruits & Harvest - SAVED people

Grapes of Wrath - UNSAVED enemies of Christ. 

(I will double check to see if I made a typo) 

1 Cor 15:23 doesn't permit multiple raptures.  And there are no verses that describe Jesus taking ANY resurrected believers to heaven.

[Feedmysheep]

1 hour ago, BornAgain490 said:

 

<<The catching away or rapture is for all that are in Christ. >>

That is not the point. The point is TIMING. 

<<All Old Testament saints that died having faith in God's promised Seed, which is Christ, are in Christ.>> 

Again, you're missing the point of TIMING. You cannot obscure the matter of timing of raptures by claiming all are believers/ justified / redeemed.  

<< Everyone in Christ are caught up (raptured), >> 

That does not negate the revelation of Firstfruits seen standing before the Lamb in heaven having been raptured and Harvest raptured to the air afterwards. Both are caught up. Both groups are not caught up at the same time.

<< the dead in Christ rise first, then the alive in Christ join them in the air to meet the Lord to accompany Him to the earth. >> 

The manchild are dead overcomers. They loved not their soul life even unto death. So we know that they DIED.

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death. (Rev. 12:11)

Yet they are resurrected and raptured not AFTER the 1,260 days of the GT but before.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. (Rev. 12:5,6)

Since this group of deceased overcoming saints are resurrected and rapture to the throne of God before the 3.5 years of the GT, this renders still true the following prophecy -

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so also those who have fallen asleep through Jesus, God will bring with Him. (1 Thess. 4:14) 

Those who loved not their soul life even unto DEATH would be among those fallen asleep.  Right? 

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are living, who are left remaining unto the coming of the Lord, shall by no means precede those who have fallen asleep; (v.15) 

Those Christians living through the GT would be those who "are living, who are left remaining" not YET having been raptured. Right? 

Because the Lord Himself, with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (v.16)

 But this would be at the END of the 3.5 year GT. And we have been shown that some (a remnant called man-child) were resurrected and raptured at least 1,260 days prior to the end when the last trumpet sounds. 

Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will be always with the Lord. (v.17) 

Those who died but were not a part of the man-child, and those who are living who were not a part of the firstfruits would fulfill the prophecy concerning others  at the end of the GT as -

we who are living, who are left remaining,

<<The one in Christ is he that walks after the Spirit and minds the things of the Spirit.>>

In the Bible there is often a difference between what OUGHT to be and what HAPPENS to be.  It is naive to believe that everyone born again minds the things of the spirit where the Spirit of Christ is.

This SHOULD be the case. But what SHOULD BE is not always what IS. And that is why Romans 8 is an exhortation to BELIEVERS as to how they OUGHT to live - how they SHOULD learn to live.

For those who are according to the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but those who are according to the spirit, the things of the Spirit.

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. (Rom. 8:5,6) 

This is an exhortation to Christians as to how they should learn habitually to live. This is how we as Christians must grow into as a daily walk. That is to SET our mind upon the Spirit. That is to SET our mind upon the things which are above where Christ is. 

I am LEARNING to more and more SET my mind on my regenerated human spirit where the Spirit of Christ has joined Himself to me. "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17) 

This setting of the mind on the mingled spirit where the Spirit of Jesus is is what we must practice. And this is the watching that He exhorts us live for His pre-tribulation coming that we would not be left.

To be left would be a temporary discipline not the loss of eternal redemption.

Remember therefore how you have received and heard, and keep it and repent. If therefore you will not watch, I will come as a thief, and you shall by no means know at what hour I will come upon you. (Rev. 3;3)

And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested, we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming. (1 John 2:28)

When the Lord says TWO will be working in the field, He meant two Christians. When He said TWO will be grinding at a mill, He meant two Christians. When He said TWO will be resting on a bed, He meant two Christians. 

And when the Lord said "Remember Lot's wife" (Luke 17:32) He meant that it is not adaquate that only our body be removed from the place of judgment. But our HEARTS must be first removed so as not to give a backward look as Lot's wife did. 

The lesson is clear. He comes to remove those who by practice of setting the mind on the Spirit mingled with their regenerated spirit their HEARTS have first been removed from the world to be judged. Their bodies will follow where their HEARTS have learned to abide.

You have some good points. For length's sake I stop my reply here.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Feedmysheep

[BornAgain490]

5 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<The catching away or rapture is for all that are in Christ. >>

That is not the point. The point is TIMING.

The Bible teaches that there is but one catching away/gathering/rapture of Christ's body. 

The Bible does not teach what you have attempted to  impose onto scripture. 

Seems like you're doing what dispensationalists have been doing since middle of the 19th century with Darby, and early 20th century with Scofield and Larkin, and middle to late 20th century with Shafer, Walvoord, and Ruckman, and in the 21st century with Woods, Ice, and others, and that is: tweaking what was written before by imposing something else onto scripture that doesn't explicitly fit, and saying: "See?  It does fit."  

[Feedmysheep]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

<<If you believe this, then you HAVE TO ignore or reject the very clear wording of 1 Cor 15:23.  There can be no compromise here.>>

The term firstfruits  can refer to more than one matter. I would not argue that when we see this term "firstfruits" it ALWAYS refers to a remnant of saints raptured.   In the case of 1 Cor. 15:23 I take "the firstfruits, Christ" there to mean the individual man Jesus Christ. 

But in Revelation 14:1-5 we should understand a plurality which carries the number (whether actual or symbolic) 144,000.  Concerning this sign of Firstfruits the plural pronoun is used "thier" as in "their foreheads" (v.1). "[T]heirs harps" in verse 2 and "they" in verse 3 indicates a collective. "These are they" used twice for the 144,000 and in verse 4 and that these were purchased from the earth indicate that this is a sign of a collective.  They followed the Lamb as let us say Enoch walked with God and was taken. They are a collective Enoch. 

Christ has been wrought into them. Christ has been worked into them. Christ whom they followed has been so dispensed into them that they are a collective numberable minority remnant who express Christ.  And because they never physically died they have a unique experience represented by the unique song they sing which none but them can learn.

And they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been purchased from the earth.

<<Why "should" we?  There isn't ANYTHING in the OT that speaks to rapture.>>

My response to this would be, I think, a whole new discussion. "WHY should we regard this firstfruits / harvest business in the OT to have anything to do with the second coming?" 

 I won't give great attention to that now. I think the case for selection in rapture is not completely dependent upon seeing that typology in the OT. You know all the things written in the OT were written for our admonition in the way of examples.

Now these things occurred as examples to us, that we should not be ones who lust after evil things, even as they also lusted. (1 Cor. 10:6)

Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our admonition, unto whom the ends of the ages have come. (v.11)

<<Ex 23:19 is about agriculture harvests.  NOT end time resurrection/rapture.>>

The Bible is very much about planting the divine life of God into the soul of human hearts.  Without seeing this typology in Exodus you should be able to see it in the parables of the Gospel of Matthew and Mark. 

You know well that the parable about the four kinds of soil which represent the heart within which Christ sows the word of the kingdom. (Matt. 13:1-12, 18-23)

The human heart is the SOIL into which Christ as the life of God is sown. That divine life has been planted into the created life of humanity that God may GROW. This growth of God in man is for man's feeding and God's satisfaction. 

You know that we are to embeb the milk of the word of God that we may "grow unto salvation". As newborn babes, long for the guileless milk of the word in order that by it you may grow unto salvation, (1 Pet. 2;2)

The growth of God in Colossian 2:19 is just that. The life of the Triune God dispensed into man for the growth of God in man. 

. . . holding the Head, out from whom all the Body, being richly supplied and knit together by means of the joints and sinews, grows with the growth of God. (See Col. 2:19)

Man is the soil. And Christ as the Spirit planted into man is for the growing of the divine life of God within man. This is also the putting on of the new man and the building up of the Body of Christ. Growth into the Head for Christ to be formed in man is a central theme of the divine revelation of the whole Bible. 

But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ,

Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love. (Eph. 4:15,16)

<<Lev 23:10-11 is about the FEAST of firstfruits, again, NOT end time resurrection/rapture.>>

 You do realize that the picture of the great unnumbered multitude raptured to the throne is taught in conjunction with the Feast of Tabernacles in Revelation 7:9

After these things I saw, and behold, there was a great multitude which no one could number, out of every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes and palm branches in their hands.

You see? The Old Testament Feast of Tabernacles is related to this great multitude who have been raptured to stand before the throne of God in His tabernacle.

And one of the elders answered, saying to me, These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where did they come from?

And I said to him, My lord, you know. And he said to me, These are those who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Because of this they are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits upon the throne will tabernacle over them.

The Old Testament feast is typology of this all-encompassing final rapture of all believers. Isn't it? 

<<None of this is relevant to end times. >> 

More study is needed. And I would like to think you have years of enjoyable exloration into the typology ahead of you to expand and deepen your grasp of God's eternal purpose.  There is no rush.  

I might suggest you start by reading a book by the late Witness Lee entitled "The All-inclusive Christ" which does a tremendous job of allegorizing the who Promised Land of Canaan to mean Jesus Christ as EVERYTHING we need. 

Just look at the table of contents of chapter headings of this book to get a flavor for what it is about. https://www.ministrybooks.org/books/reader.php?id=V15EOaR1Bnmg

I need time to reply to your other points.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Feedmysheep

[farouk]

5 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

I'll simply say: I'm not pretrib because there is no biblical authority for a pretrib rapture. 

We are either caught up to meet the Lord during great tribulation (Matt. 24:22), prior to God's wrath being poured out (Matt. 24:30-31), or we are protected as Noah was and as Lot was during the time God that poured out His wrath (Matt. 24:37-39).  But pretrib rapture is not biblically sound theology. 

In Matt. 24:21, Jesus tells His disciples that there will be "great tribulation ..."  Then, in the very next verse, Jesus says "for the elects sake, those days shall be shortened".  By "those days", Jesus is referring back to the great tribulation.  And the elect is obviously referring to those that are in Christ from all generations. 

Jesus then says in v.29, "immediately after the tribulation of those days..."  Again, "those days"  refer to the great tribulation.  

Continuing in v.29, Jesus tells us of the cosmic disturbances that both Joel and Isaiah prophesied would take place before the Day of the Lord, which is when God pours out His wrath on His enemies, the unbelievers.  

Then we read in v.30 that Jesus appears in the clouds and every eye shall see Him.  Then, in v.31, Jesus sends out His angels to gather His elect.  Is this before great tribulation?   Seems to be after great tribulation because it is happening after the cosmic disturbances, which immediately precede the wrath of God. 

So, as far as the word of God is concerned, Gods wrath (the Day 9f the Lord) occurs after great tribulation, and the rapture (caught up or gathered) happens after or during great tribulation, or either before God pours out His wrath, or while God is pouring out His wrath.  

Furthermore, Paul was taught by revelation of Jesus. So, when you compare Matthew 24 with 1 & 2 Thessalonians, you'll see that Scripture fits neatly into a post trib/pre wrath or during trib/wrath catching up/gathering of those in Christ. 

I don't see how the church can be the object of God's wrath.

If the truth of 1 Cor. 11.26 'shew the Lord's death till He come' can indeed be applied to us through faith, then the wrath of God will never be upon those who are indeed grafted into the church by faith.

"The storm that bowed Thy blessed head

Is hushed for ever now,

And rest Divine is ours instead,

While glory crowns Thy brow."

[Feedmysheep]

On 12/27/2024 at 4:49 PM, BornAgain490 said:

 

 

Seems like you're doing what dispensationalists have been doing since middle of the 19th century with Darby, and early 20th century with Scofield and Larkin, and middle to late 20th century with Shafer, Walvoord, and Ruckman, and in the 21st century with Woods, Ice, and others, and that is: tweaking what was written before by imposing something else onto scripture that doesn't explicitly fit, and saying: "See?  It does fit."  

<<The Bible teaches that there is but one catching away/gathering/rapture of Christ's body. >> 

I think as the time of His coming draws nearer a crystalization of finer points is being revealed by the Holy Spirit who leads us into all the truth.

You see what OUGHT to be is not always what HAPPENS.  The earlier religious people expected one coming of Christ. That OUGHT to have been perhaps. But ended up happening is TWO comings of Christ seperated by a church age.

Who would have expected this? God is still the same in this regard. That is He tells us SOME things and observes what we will do with the knowledge that we have. How will we react to the limited details He has shown us? 

Prophecy is always a TEST to the hearts of His people.  

<<The Bible does not teach what you have attempted to  impose onto scripture. >>

Okay, Let us step away from Scripture for a brief moment and use our common sense. Agreed? 

Now, Christ comes to rapture all His believers. It is a fact of life that some Christians are in a state of cronic backsliddeness. And some others are inheriting the promises.  You want us to assume that, say, if a Christian is lying in a bed of fornication when  He comes as a thief in the night, THAT worldly, fleshy defeated brother will be raptured just the same as the one who has learned to overcome through His Spirit? 

You have more faith than  I do, if you believe this.  The DEFEATED saints may be taken. But he may be taken LATTER because He was not READY. 

You're saying that Christ will take a backslider where he doesn't WANT to go. This is a naivete which it is high time we discard. And we discard it not by inventing anything new. We discard it by going BACK to the pure word and sanctified common sense.

Darby did not teach selective rapture. Neither did Benjamin Newton, Darby's opposite in rapture teaching. Robert Govette, J.H. Pember, J.H. Lang, and D.M Panton, all Brethren influenced teachers, proved imo both Darby and Newton were only partially right. Neither ALL the church is rapture pre-trib nor ALL the church is rapture post-trib. 

There will be selection. So I have to protest at a "Ho hum, just more dispensationalism" attitude.

Go BACK . . . to the word of God and examine more closely the matter.

Now let me ask you a question.  Would you not say that to the church in Philadelphia the promise to be raptured out of the hour of trial is CONDITIONAL upon a quality of spiritual living?   

 Consider please -

Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth. (Rev. 3:10) 

Christ did not say "Because . . you are born again" or  "Because . . . you are forgiven of your sins" or "Because . . . you are justified by faith". 

The reason for their being kept from the hour of world wide trial is "Because you have kept the word of My endurance,"

You will protest? "But ALL saved people are keeping the word of Christ's endurance!"

  Nay. What OUGHT to be is not always what IS. And sometimes you or I don't even keep the word of His endurance. We are learning to endure through His grace no matter what. We are in the process of learning to keep such endurance. 

 Now, BECAUSE such ones have learned this endurance, Christ says that is not necessary that they pass through the world wide trial IN ORDER to LEARN to keep the word of His endurance.  That is the tone of the letter.

Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial . . . 

The crown is already theirs. They only need to continue that they do not lose that crowning aspect of their testimony.

I come quickly; hold fast what you have that no one take your crown.

Would Jesus WARN that the prize could be taken if it was impossible to happen? This is not to be careful that no one take your eternal redemption and eternal life. It is be careful that the prize of an early pre-hour rapture out of the world wide trial not be taken. 

Selective Rapture is the way to interpret this passage. 

Edited December 29, 2024 by Feedmysheep