Selective Rapture

FreeGrace · December 30, 2024

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<Why do you insert "heavenly" in v.1? Zion literally refers to the city of Jerusalem.>>>

I inserted "heavenly" to indicate what should be understood is not the physical Mount Zion in Israel. But these saints are raptured to the heavens.

On whose "authority" are you "claiming" what should be understood? Prove it isn't refrerring to the REAL Mount Zion in Israel.

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Compare to Hebrews 12;22 - But you have come forward to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem; and to myriads of angels, to the universal gathering;

And you think this refers to a rapture? That would be reading INTO Scripture what isn't there. And 1 Cor 15:23 plainly SAYS that there will be a (singular) resurrection "when He comes" (Second Advent, per Heb 9:28) for ALL believers in history "those who belong to Him".

So far, you haven't proven that any of what I understand of 1 Cor 15:23 means something else.

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<There are no words that denote either resurrection or rapture.>>>

If you don't believe that Revelation 14:14-16 is not a sign of the Lord catching up to the clouds resurrected and raptured believers at the end of the GT then propose your alternative interpretation.

Since 1 Cor 15:23 FORBIDS your ideas about resurrection, it is obviously a reference to the coming wrath of God with the harvest being God's wrath. That is . . . when you you consider all of the context.

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

I believe the end of tribulation harvest is exactly the grand resurrection and rapture as told in First Thessalonians 4:16,17.

Please define what you mean by 'rapture'. What occurs when someone is "raptured"?

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Because the Lord Himself, with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will be always with the Lord.

1.) Both occur at the end of the major events of the great tribulation.

2.) Both mention the voice of an angel.

3.) Both mention the Lord Jesus and the cloud/s.

If you think Revelation 14:14-17 is speaking of a different event from First Thess. 4:16,17 what is the event?

I do believe that 1 Thess 4:13-17 is the singular resurrection of all believers at the Second Advent. But the (full) context of Rev 14 shows the 'harvest' to be God's wrath on the earth.

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<With such symbolic or metaphoric words, one can pretty much claim anything they want to.>>>

I am opened to your alternative interpretation. But to just throw up your hands and say it is all guess work, is too easy.

I certainly did not say anything about "it is all guess work". And I don't have an alternate interpretation. That would be you. Because of the clarity of 1 Cor 15:23, there is ONLY ONE resurrection, which will be for ALL believers, and will occur at the Second Advent. There can be no other understanding. The wording is very clear. Nothing to "interpret". No symbolism, no metaphors, no figures of speech.

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<Well, that's pretty convenient. Of course it does lots of damage. >>>

To understand a remnant of Firstfruits follows the Lamb even right up to heaven in the last days in no way makes Jesus Christ not the singular firstfruit in resurrection in First Corinthians 15. As a matter of fact without Christ being the Firstborn from the dead or "the firstfruits, Christ" there could be none to so follow Him.

But here's the deal. There is NO "following to heaven". No verse describes Jesus leading resurrected believers to heaven. And 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't permit such an idea.

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

The sign of the 144,000 having followed the Lamb right up alive into Heaven no more damages "the firstfruits, Christ" (1 Cor. 15:23) than any expression of the enjoyment of His full salvation.

All believers will be resurrected at the Second Advent, and NOT be led back to heaven. They will STAY on earth and serve/reign with Christ during the Millennial reign.

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

How do you know that you yourself might end up among them? Would you refuse to arrive in Heaven as one following Christ in the end times, because you are concerned being redeemed from the earth would do damage to Christ's honor as "the firstfruits, Christ" (1 Cor. 15:23)

I know what the Bible says, and therefore I am beyond convinced that NO believer will be resurrected and then taken to heaven.

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Would you refuse to be called a son of God because you might do damage to Christ being the Son of God?

So, how would I "do damage to Christ being the Son of God", when He certainly IS the Son of God? Your question is quite puzzling.

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.(Gal. 3:26)

Don't forget John 1:12 as well. And 1 John 3:1.

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<Your focus is bizarre. When a person believes in Christ, they are BORN AGAIN, not "planted" or "implanted", or ANYTHING relating to agriculture.>>>

The New Testament uses "implanted" to describe the word of God put into our hearts.

receive in meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. (James 1:21b)

Considering the whole context, the message is to "receive in meekness the Word of God that is already IN you". iow, obey what you already know. The phrase "which is able to save your souls" is NOT an evangelistic phrase for going to heaven, but was the common way in the first Century to mean "save a life".

iow, believers who live obediently lives will not fall under God's discipline that includes physical death, as seen in 1 Cor 11:30, Acts 5, and 1 Cor 10:1-12

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

And the New Testament speaks of regeneration (born again) as receiving the living and abiding SEED of the word of God which James says is implanted.

James wasn't referring to regeneration. He wrote to SAVED JEWS. Already regenerated.

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<Where do you get "saturation" when it isn't even in the whole chapter?? iow, why are you making up stuff?>>>

The word "saturation" is not there. But the word is useful to describe Christ's life filling the soul and living of the saved as much as we allow Him.

Not even the concept is there. Maybe you are thinking of spiritual growth. If so, then say that, which IS found in the Bible.

1 Peter 2:2 - Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Paul labored to present every man "full grown in Christ". Whom we announce, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man full-grown in Christ; (Col. 1:27) Could we not also say "saturated" with Christ?

No, we shouldn't when the obvious meaning is spiritual growth, not drenched.

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Paul labored the Christ would be FORMED in the Christians. My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you, (Gal. 4:19) Could we not also say formed means filled, permeated, or saturated with Christ?

Nope. This isn't about drenched, which is synonymous with saturated. The much better words are "spiritual growth" which is a process that takes time, just like physically growing up to maturity. The goal of spiritual growth is spiritual maturity.

New believers are described as "babes in Christ", or babies. They need to grow up. Not get drenched.

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Paul said he and his co-workers were a fragrance of Christ to God. For we are a fragrance of Christ to God in those who are being saved and in those who are perishing: (2 Cor. 2:15) Couldn't we say that they were so full of Christ that they bore a saturating aroma of Christ?

As much as you keep trying to legitimize your fav word, it fails to communicate properly. When we already have biblical words, that's what we should use. To saturate is to drench. Doesn't work in the Bible. It's confusing rather than communicating.

Believers should be told to grow up spiritually, rather than be drenched with Christ.

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Paul said that it was no longer he that lived but Christ that lived in him. I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; (Gal. 2:20a) Can't we say that Paul became a man saturated with Christ?

No, he was NOT drenched with Christ. That doesn't even sound normal. He was spiritually mature. Not drenched in any sense.

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Paul said that he longed for the Philippian saints in the inward parts of Christ. For God is my witness how I long after you all in the inward parts of Christ Jesus. (Phil. 1:8) Paul's inward being was so full of Christ that his [Paul's] inward parts became the inward parts of Christ in him.Then why can we not express this as a man being saturated with the Spirit of Christ?

Of course not. And no one is "so full of Christ" anyway. One is either "Christ-like or not". One is either filled with the Holy Spirit or not. The Bible does not use "volume amount" language here. It's all or none. However, spiritual growth is gradual and progressive. Just like growing up physically.

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

The Apostle's inward tender emotions of yearning were so one with the Lord as to be the inward parts of Christ. Don't you realize that Christ longs to so fill our mind, emotion, and will with Himself?

Of course I do. He wants all believers to be in fellowship with Him (1 John 1) and to be filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) so the good they do will be considered 'divine good', which pleases God. Believers who are not in fellowship (lack of confession of sin) and are grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit can STILL produce morality, but it is not divine good, but only human good. And to God, human good, that which is produced by man's human nature, STINKS to high heaven, according to Isa 64:6. The words "filthy rags" in the literal Hebrew means "used menstrual rags".

😳

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Do why is it weird to speaking being filled with Christ, permeated with Christ, steeped in Christ?

It is NOT weird to speak of being filled with the Holy Spirit, but the other descriptions are NOT biblical words, so we don't need them. They just add confusion and allow the speaker to use them however they want. Stick with biblical words. Then everyone is on the same page.

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Indeed after being reborn we need to open up all the chambers of our heart to be so filled with Christ.

Are you meaning the muscle that pumps blood? Why not rather just say believers need to open their eyes and ears to what God's Word says?

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Did you think all that is needed is to be born again?

Kind of a loaded question, or an open ended one. For salvation, YES I do think that.

For spiritual growth, the believer must understand how to be purified/cleansed from their ongoing sins, and then know how to be filled with the Holy Spirit for spiritual growth.

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

How about God's will for the church to be filled unto all the fullness of God? And to know the knowledge-surpassing love of Christ, that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God. (Eph. 3:19) Why not then speak of being saturated with the life of God?

Because the wording is NOT biblical and leads to much confusion.

Your continued attempt to use your favorite word is "all wet". 😉

13 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

So then, though "saturate" is not in the text, as "trinity" also is not in the text, the revelation of the Bible shows God's will that we be filled up with the indwelling Spirit of Christ to saturation.

No the Bible does not say anything like that. When you say 'saturate' I say 'drench'. Totally synonymous.

I always prefer to stick with biblical words. And Trinity is fine because the Bible calls The Father God, the Son God and the Holy Spirit God. 3 Persons in the Trinity.

Feedmysheep · December 30, 2024

13 hours ago, TheBlade said:

Blade - <<<pfft thanks but.. I don't want to play. "There will be more than one taking up of the saints of God from off the earth." "But the majority of Christians will be caught off guard and miss this pre-tribulation rapture". >>>

That's right. I invite noble minded Berean like lovers of Scripture to examine if these things are so. It is not for me "playing" but seeking the truth.

Blade- <<<Do you see what I see here?>>>

I see that it is high time some of us re-examine more carefully popular assumptions in light of more of the word of God. As the time of Christ's coming draws closer I believe the Holy Spirit is leading the church into a clearer understanding of God's revelation.

The first rapture must be met readiness and abiding in the Spirit in a moment by moment habitual way. If not the Lord will wait until we really want to not love the world which is under judgment.

"Remember Lot's wife. Whoever seeks to preserve his soul-life will lose it, and whoever loses it will preserve it alive. I tell you, In that night there will be two on one bed; the one will be taken and the other will be left. (Luke 17:32-34)

The warning of Lot's wife is that it is not the Lord's intention that merely your body be removed from the place under judgement, but that our hearts first have been trained to be set on the things above where Christ our life is. (Col. 3:2)

Be a Berean, examining these things with Scripture to see if they are actually so. If you do and choose to be skeptical about Selective Rapture, so be it. But understand what it is that is being said.

Blade- <<< The first statement here there is no verse for.>>>

The tone and details of the Lord's warning is the indication that selection in the first rapture will take place.

I tell you, In that night there will be two on one bed; the one will be taken and the other will be left. (Luke 17:34)

This immediately follows His exhortation to remember how Lot's wife gave a world longing backwark look. And she became a monument of shame. She was not burned with the Sodomite nor reach the safe refuge. Halfway inbetween the two Lot's wife became a lesson to us. Her heart had not left Sodom.

There will be two women grinding together; the one will be taken but the other will be left. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left. (v.35,36)

The "two" women are two Christian women. Otherwise WHY the warning to His disciples about something they could not avoid - rapture? The "two" men in the field are two Christian men. It is not that they are worshipping or in a prayer meeting.

They are going about thier legitimate daily responsibilities. Yet one is abiding in the Lord in a moment by moment way. Building up such a habit, the "watching" Christians are ready. The Christian deficient in abiding with the Lord is not ready and will have to pass through the GT to learn the lesson. Then this majority will be taken at the end of the GT.

In the first pair - "two on one bed" I believe the warning is that even in our resting at night, the Lord looks to see that our hearts are in the habit of abiding in the Holy Spirit. So, dear brother, we need time to practice abiding in the Spirit in our spirit. We need to learn. We need to develop into a lifestyle of our hearts turned to the Lord Jesus.

It would be naive to assume our daily living makes no difference as the Lord strongly exhorts us "WATCH." Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:42)

This is not a watching the sky physically. This is a watching that we are living by Christ, unto Christ, with Christ even in our mundane obligations of daily life.

What do you think will be the reaction of millions of Christians if they suddenly notice there was a selection among ALL the believers in this rapture? I tell you that that will be a gigantic wake up call. And the majority will realize that the Lord's warning to WATCH was not to have been taken for granted.

If there is to be any great Christian rivival, it will come in this manner of a powerful universal incentive which can no longer be taken for granted. We must learn to begin each day with the Lord being central to our living for each day.

Blade <<< To read what Christ says in Rev "I will keep you from the day .....". Ok we all can read it we all can search and see how it was originally written but some take it farther by saying things like "this is pre-trib".>>>

What is written is that BECAUSE. . . a certain condition was met, He would keep these overcoming ones from the hour of trial.

Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth. (Rev. 3:10)

There is the reward of being exempted from the world-wide trial because the lesson of endurance through Christ has already been practiced, developed, and applied. What the world-wide trial teaches, they have already learned to apply.

Endurance through faith is an characteristic Christ seeks we apply in ALL of our typical unavoidable trials of our Christian life.

Through whom also we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand and boast because of the hope of the glory of God.

And not only so, but we also boast in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces endurance; (Rom. 5:2,3)

After the initial "honeymoon" of joy at being born again, eventually to grow we must learn the grace supplying enduance through little and big tribulations designed to develop our spiritual growth.

And endurance, approvedness; and approvedness, hope;

And hope does not put us to shame, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Especially in the USA Christians have been befuddled by an expectation of prosperity for being saved. Too many murmer, whine, become discouraged because the "bed of roses" they expected would come after being saved did not come. Rather many, many opportunities to develop "approvedness" through adverse circumstances came from God's hand.

If we learn that all things have come to us to work together for good to conform us to the image of Christ, the lesson of endurance in daily tribulations will be rewarded by an early rapture. This reward of early rapture is because what the great tribulation is used to ripen the unripened crop of God, has already been faithfully learned in the typical Christian walk.

Was it that we were not told beforehand by the apostles ?

Establishing the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith and saying that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God. (Acts 14:22)

Blade <<< They just added to the word of God and never gave it a second thought.>>>

I believe that Rev. 3:10 must refer to the hour of trial - the 3.5 years of the great tribulation. An alternative interpretation I would listen to if you have one.

Blade <<<Now I can tell you what I personally believe and why but I can not prove it.....oh don't you just love those songs that GOD and His sweet holy Spirit is all over... just part of the song "I can't get enough of you". You just want to stop time and never leave moment...holy you are holy.. your such a perfect Father.. I will worship you forever!...holy.. you are holy... your such a perfect Father... I will worship you forever. I lay down any treasure...I just want more of you". MAN when we focus on Him everything and I mean everything fades away....is HE not the only thing that matters? Wow.. >>>

I share your joy and enthusiasm in true worship songs. I myself put Scripture to song.

Singing the word and spiritual songs is excellent. These are some of the ways we can learn to abide in the Lord with our hearts enjoying His presence.

If you're not wanting to debate the issue, I respect that. I have a few examiners here who I hope are re-considering a closer look at an important end time subject - Rapture.

Blade <<<If this was my thread I would have started it with "I personally believe there will be more then one caught up and I believe many will be left behind and heres why I believe that". Because those two statements alone no one can prove. The 2nd one has to know the heart of each and that alone belongs to a GOD we best remember that. >>>

I believe in selection in the first rapture not from personal taste for things but because the warning tone of the Lord to His disciples. If I did think this could not be demonstrated in the Bible, I would not start such a discussion.

Absolute proof may not be needed. Inference to the best explanation and interpretation is an adaquate incentive to consider again what God revealed.

There may have been better ways to write an OP.

What we are talking about here is know the exhauative details which all of which the Lord has not revealed. I am talking about what IS revealed and what we lovers of Jesus should do with what we ARE told.

Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes.

But know this, that if the householder had known in which watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.

For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming. (Matt. 24:42-44)

Edited December 30, 2024 by Feedmysheep

Feedmysheep · December 30, 2024

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

<<< Prove it isn't refrerring to the REAL Mount Zion in Israel. >>>

I already gave the reasons.

The sound of their singing comes from heaven. And I heard a voice out of heaven. And the four living creatures and twenty four elders before whom they sing were described as being in heaven. (Rev. 4:4,6)

<<<And you think this refers to a rapture? >>>

Yes. You see we typically imagine God should show them physically traveling up through the sky to arrive in heaven. I think the what the impression the Holy Spirit is giving is that they arrived at where their HEART was as they lived on earth.

Set your mind on the things which are above, not on the things which are on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. (Col. 3:2,3)

The arrived in Heaven some way. Right? I think in this passage the Spirit's burden is that while on earth the followed the Lord, the Lamb absolutely. And like Enoch, God took them.

I believe anyone reading this post possibly could be in this group of overcomers who suddenly find their bodies where their hearts and innermost spiritual being daily was - as they followed the Lord Jesus.

For if you live according to the flesh, you must die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. (Rom. 8:13,14)

<<<Please define what you mean by 'rapture'. What occurs when someone is "raptured"?>>>

For the moment I think it will suffice to say "rapture" is a kind of ecstatic joy. What we need to realize is that the enjoyment of Christ should keep us in a state of joy. Even we might feel beside ourselves with the ecstacy of the victorious Christ living in us. Paul and his companions were such Christians ecstatic with joy even in all of their trials.

For whether we were beside ourselves, it was to God; or whether we are sober-minded, it is for you. (2 Cor. 5:13)

Suffice it to say, we should learn to be so joyful in the Holy Spirit even inspite of outward circumstantial difficulties. The Rapture will transport our physical bodies suddenly where our heart already has learned joyfully to abide - with Christ.

I wish you to notice that the New Testament locates Christ in two places in Romans chapter 8.

1.) Christ is in the believers - But if Christ is in you, (v. 10a)

2.) Christ is at the right hand of God - Christ Jesus who died and, rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, (See v. 34)

<<<So far, you haven't proven that any of what I understand of 1 Cor 15:23 means something else.>>>

Evidence is not persuasion. I gave you evidence of Christ growing in the saved as effecting the quality of the glory we will bear during the millennial reign.

But I want to make sure you do not misunderstand something.

The firstfruits in Revelation 14 are rapture ALIVE. They are Christian who were not resurrected from death. But they were transfigured.

The harvest in Revelation 14 is of those both who died in Christ and the Christians who passed through alive the great tribulation.

I Cor. 15:23 - But each one in his own order: the firstfruits, Christ; then those who are Christ’s at His coming;

If this were the ONLY passage about rapture then I might not believe in selective rapture. But both are Christ's - early raptured ones and latter resurrected and raptured ones.

At end times just before the 3.5 year GT living firstfruits (overcomers) who are Christ's are raptured. And deceased man-child (overcomers) who are Christ's are resurrected and raptured.

Your rationale seems to be that all who are Christ's at His coming must all be resurrected / raptured at one time. Otherwise, they are not Christ's? Both overcomers and those needing to learn to be overcoming are Christ's.

If you do not believe that the 144,000 firstfruits are early raptured ones, please explain who you think they are. I am all ears to what you think would be a better explanation.

I haven't noticed your alternative yet. Perhaps you could persuade me that the Firstfruits and the Harvest are all taken up to Christ at the same day. Then you would have to explain WHY the Bible speaks of this distinction - firstfruits (Rev. 14:1-5) & harvest (Rev. 14:14-17).

Now you are peppering me with many problems to answer. How about you deal with a few you have?

1.) WHY does Revelation place the events of the GT inbetween the mention of the Firstfruits (vs. 1-5) and the Harvest (vs. 14-17)?

Do you find it arbitrary and of no sequencial significance?

2.) WHY could not "then those who are Christ’s at His coming;" include both some resurrected just before the 3.5 year "short time" and those resurrected at the end of that same "short time"?

<<< And 1 Cor 15:23 plainly SAYS that there will be a (singular) resurrection "when He comes" (Second Advent, per Heb 9:28) for ALL believers in history "those who belong to Him".>>>

I believe Hebrews 9:28. But when you answer for me particularly question #2 above that would matter.

What you would have to convince this Christian of is:

1.) The corporate man-child is resurrected along with all other resurrected ones at the close of the 3.5 years.

Now can you do that?

2.) Though the man-child is caught up to the throne just before the 3.5 years actually it is at the end of the 3.5 years.

Can you demonstrate that?

3.) The man-child who died (they loved not their soul-life even unto death) are STILL physically dead when it is shown- And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12:5)

How will you show these ones still are in the grave?

4.) You should show that all the resurrected saints must be caught up to the throne in the third heavens either altogether BEFORE the great tribulation of 3.5 years or alltogether at the END of the same period.

But Matthew says the dramatic appearing of the coming Christ in the clouds is "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt. 24:29)

There is no rush. Take your time. These things take time. I changed my belief in some things after time. That's allowed you know?

You must master all the facts given. That is not always easy.

<<<Since 1 Cor 15:23 FORBIDS your ideas about resurrection, it is obviously a reference to the coming wrath of God with the harvest being God's wrath. That is . . . when you you consider all of the context.>>>

There is not much about judgment or wrath in First Corinthians 15. But it is a chapter on the fact and nature of resurrection.

I do not believe that we can dictate to God that He has no right to manifest different degrees of glory with the resurrected. God has that authority and right and ability to vary the rewards during the millennial age.

How much the SOUL was transformed, I believe, will effect in some way the manifestation of glory with the transfigured BODY.

The evidence of this in resurrection you dismissed. I cannot dismiss it that easily.

There is another glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption; (1 Cor. 15:41,42)

Now I want you to pay close attention to what Jesus said about the differing levels of greatness in the kingdom of the heavens. Too many of us gloss over this.

Therefore whoever annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whoever practices and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens. (Matt. 5:19)

Did you notice that? Least in the kingdom ------ great in the kingdom ---- and whatever is in-between. Does that not reveal degress of reward in addition to the gift of free grace?

IS it then too difficult to imagine God who transforms our souls and transfigures our bodies can manifest least to great and other stages inbetween?

How about this? We are not given all the details. But we are given enough to understand that how much our souls were transformed will effect our degree of honor bestowed in the millennial kingdom age?

Because all of the details are withheld is no reason to ascertain that SOME difference will be revealed.

Our attitude should be that we stretch forward always to gain more and more of Christ in our soul.

Brothers, I do not account of myself to have laid hold; but one thing I do: Forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before,

I pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called me upward. (Phil. 3:13,14)

Here Paul is not talking about earning the free GIFT of salvation. He is talking about seeking the PRIZE of the high calling.

I want you also to notice that Paul said that as many as are mature should also have this attitude - ALWAYS SEEKING to GAIN Christ.

Let us therefore, as many as are full-grown, have this mind; (v.15a)

<<<I do believe that 1 Thess 4:13-17 is the singular resurrection of all believers at the Second Advent. But the (full) context of Rev 14 shows the 'harvest' to be God's wrath on the earth.>>>

You, I think, are confusing the Harvest of the wheat with a gthering of the ripened grapes of wrath.

The Harvest of the earth as wheat is salvation of saints of God.

The gathering of the ripened grapes of wrath is destruction of the armies of unbelievers fighting physically fighting Christ's return.

1.) The Harvest of SAVED -

And I saw, and behold, there was a white cloud, and on the cloud One like the Son of Man sitting, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.

And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe.

And He who sat on the cloud thrust His sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped. (vs. 14-16)

2.) The gathering of the negatively ripened enemies of God for slaying.

And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

And another angel came out of the altar, he who has authority over fire, and he cried with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripened.

And the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth and cast it into the great winepress of the fury of God. (vs. 17-19)

"And another angel" giving the announcement signifies this is another operation.

<<<All believers will be resurrected at the Second Advent, and NOT be led back to heaven. They will STAY on earth and serve/reign with Christ during the Millennial reign.>>>>

I agree basically. The early raptured ones are taken to the third heavens. Then Christ begins His descent from Heaven towards the earth. He hovers there concealed in a cloud - a kind of mysterious pavillion in the sky.

And I saw another strong Angel coming down out of heaven, clothed with a cloud; and the rainbow was upon His head, and His face was like the sun, and His feet like pillars of fire;

The earth will be in supernatural turmoil. Then He will appear on the cloud.

And I saw, and behold, there was a white cloud, and on the cloud One like the Son of Man sitting, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. (Rev. 14:14)

He brings from the third heavens the early raptured and resurrected and raptured ones. And the majority are taken not to heaven but to the air.

Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will be always with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:17)

Eventually He will appear on the earth lightening up the whole world with His presence.

After these things I saw another Angel coming down out of heaven, having great authority; and the earth was illumined with His glory. (Rev. 18:1)

At the judgment seat in the sky the decision will be made by Christ as to who will be rewarded to reign with Him on the earth.

I will stop here for now.

FreeGrace · December 31, 2024

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<< Prove it isn't refrerring to the REAL Mount Zion in Israel. >>>

I already gave the reasons.

The sound of their singing comes from heaven. And I heard a voice out of heaven. And the four living creatures and twenty four elders before whom they sing were described as being in heaven. (Rev. 4:4,6)

You gave no reasons. And what you give here is contradictory. You mention "THEIR singing" which comes from heaven, but the verse SAYS "A voice". That doesn't match.

Further, why are you now trying to force Rev 4 into chapter 14?

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<And you think this refers to a rapture? >>>

Yes. You see we typically imagine God should show them physically traveling up through the sky to arrive in heaven.

Well, you're right here. The idea of resurrected believers traveling to heaven is only an imagination. Because there are NO VERSES that describe such a trip. And 1 Cor 15:23 FORBIDS such an idea.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

The arrived in Heaven some way. Right?

Every believer who died BEFORE the Second Advent gets to heaven by escort of angels. And NONE are in resurrection bodies, because those aren't issued until the Second Advent.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

I think in this passage the Spirit's burden is that while on earth the followed the Lord, the Lamb absolutely. And like Enoch, God took them.

What do you mean by "the Spirit's burden"?

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

I believe anyone reading this post possibly could be in this group of overcomers who suddenly find their bodies where their hearts and innermost spiritual being daily was - as they followed the Lord Jesus.

Imagination.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

For if you live according to the flesh, you must die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.

Do you understand what "die" means here in this verse? Many believers live by the flesh and they still are walking around. So what do you think it refers to?

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<Please define what you mean by 'rapture'. What occurs when someone is "raptured"?>>>

For the moment I think it will suffice to say "rapture" is a kind of ecstatic joy. What we need to realize is that the enjoyment of Christ should keep us in a state of joy. Even we might feel beside ourselves with the ecstacy of the victorious Christ living in us. Paul and his companions were such Christians ecstatic with joy even in all of their trials.

So does that mean you don't link "rapture" with a trip to heaven?

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Suffice it to say, we should learn to be so joyful in the Holy Spirit even inspite of outward circumstantial difficulties. The Rapture will transport our physical bodies suddenly where our heart already has learned joyfully to abide - with Christ.

Why are you being so vague? "rapture will transporrt our physical bodies" WHERE??

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

I wish you to notice that the New Testament locates Christ in two places in Romans chapter 8.

1.) Christ is in the believers - But if Christ is in you, (v. 10a)

2.) Christ is at the right hand of God - Christ Jesus who died and, rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, (See v. 34)

I wish you to notice that God is omnipresent. That includes all 3 Persons.

What is the point you are trying to make here?

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<So far, you haven't proven that any of what I understand of 1 Cor 15:23 means something else.>>>

Evidence is not persuasion

Yes, it sure is. So at least you are unwittingly admitting that you have no evidence that my view of 1 Cor 15:23 is in error.

But with all your pushback and your own imaginations, demonstrates that you don't believe the plain words of the verse.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

I gave you evidence of Christ growing in the saved as effecting the quality of the glory we will bear during the millennial reign.

No, you did not give any such evidence. Christ doesn't "grow in the saved" as if some kind of seed. The believer is to grow spiritually, to maturity. But it's not automatic.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

But I want to make sure you do not misunderstand something.

lol, says the one who ignores 1 Cor 15:23.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

The firstfruits in Revelation 14 are rapture ALIVE. They are Christian who were not resurrected from death. But they were transfigured.

Quite the imagination. Saying "rapture ALIVE" implies there are dead raptures, which is ridiculous. The only believers who will be, not "transfigured", but as the Bible says, "changed in the twinkling of the eye" per 1 Cor 15:52, are the believers who will be still alive on earth "when He comes", meaning the Second Advent.

I highly recommend using biblical words, and not words that have no biblical link.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

The harvest in Revelation 14 is of those both who died in Christ and the Christians who passed through alive the great tribulation.

OK, but it's STILL just one single resurrection of ALL believers, which will occur at the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't permit any other view or imagination.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

I Cor. 15:23 - But each one in his own order: the firstfruits, Christ; then those who are Christ’s at His coming;

If this were the ONLY passage about rapture then I might not believe in selective rapture.

There are no other times of resurrection. Only one. Or the Bible would indicate more than one. Jesus spoke ONLY of a single resurrection by the indefinite article "the".

Your statement demonstrates clearly that you ignore 1 Cor 15:23. It is very clear.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

But both are Christ's - early raptured ones and latter resurrected and raptured ones.

There are no verses that show believers being resurrected at different times, nor does 1 Cor 15:23 allow such imagination.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

At end times just before the 3.5 year GT living firstfruits

No pretrip resurrection. Period.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

(overcomers) who are Christ's are raptured. And deceased man-child (overcomers) who are Christ's are resurrected and raptured.

Pray tell, when do these imagined resurrections occur?

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Your rationale seems to be that all who are Christ's at His coming must all be resurrected / raptured at one time.

What a very odd statement. It isn't my "rationale", but the very plain and clear words of 1 Cor 15:23, which SAYS so. Like the Bereans of Acts 17:11, I SAY what the Bible SAYS.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Otherwise, they are not Christ's? Both overcomers and those needing to learn to be overcoming are Christ's.

Rather, "those who belong to Him" refer to EVERY saved person in humanity.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

If you do not believe that the 144,000 firstfruits are early raptured ones, please explain who you think they are. I am all ears to what you think would be a better explanation.

Didn't you already indicate that the 144K were resurrected when Jesus comes back?

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

I haven't noticed your alternative yet. Perhaps you could persuade me that the Firstfruits and the Harvest are all taken up to Christ at the same day.=

There is no "alternative" to 1 Cor 15:23. I'm just amazed at your BOLD resistance to what that verse so very clearly states. There is only 1 resurrection of the saved.

Here are 3 verses that show ONLY 1 resurrection of the saved and 1 of the unsaved:

Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15. So I'm not only focusing on 1 Cor 15:23. Here are 4 verses that speak of resurrection in the SINGULAR. And Jesus only spoke in the singular about resurrection.

So I have all the evidence and you have none for your multiple resurrection imagination.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Then you would have to explain WHY the Bible speaks of this distinction - firstfruits (Rev. 14:1-5) & harvest (Rev. 14:14-17).

v.5 refers to the FIRST converts of the Two Witnesses. They won't be resurrected until the Second Advent.

v.14-20 compare God's judgment and wrath against mankind in the second half of the tribulation to a grain harvest (ie, bowl judgments 16:1-21) and a grape harvest (ie, Armageddon in 19:11-21).

However, there are a multitude of views of how to understand ch 14. Personally, I am not bothered by admitting I am not convinced of what anyone says about it. It just doesn't matter.

What I DO know is that there will be just one resurrection of the saved and it will be at the Second Advent. There will be NO "rapture" where resurrected believers are taken to heaven.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Now you are peppering me with many problems to answer. How about you deal with a few you have?

1.) WHY does Revelation place the events of the GT inbetween the mention of the Firstfruits (vs. 1-5) and the Harvest (vs. 14-17)?

Just answered above, and am not concerned about ch 14. It may simply be a text out of chronological order. Doesn't really matter. When these events start to occur, the book of Revelation will become much more clear. We'll have to live through it to see what the various contexts refer to.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Do you find it arbitrary and of no sequencial significance?

Nothing in the Bible is "arbitrary". And there are various views of how Revelation is sequenced. I'm not bothered by such details. I know the overall schedule.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

2.) WHY could not "then those who are Christ’s at His coming;" include both some resurrected just before the 3.5 year "short time" and those resurrected at the end of that same "short time"?

This question is not clear. Are you thinking of two "short time" events?? Again, there is JUST ONE resurrection of the saved, according to 1 Cor 15:23.

Are you not aware that 1 Cor 15 is THE chapter on believer resurrection?

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<< And 1 Cor 15:23 plainly SAYS that there will be a (singular) resurrection "when He comes" (Second Advent, per Heb 9:28) for ALL believers in history "those who belong to Him".>>>

I believe Hebrews 9:28. But when you answer for me particularly question #2 above that would matter.

What do you believe about Heb 9:28? That EVERY mention of "coming" in regard to Christ refers to the Second Advent?

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

What you would have to convince this Christian of is:

1.) The corporate man-child is resurrected along with all other resurrected ones at the close of the 3.5 years.

I know nothing of this "corporate man-child" that you imagine. Since most evangelicals believe the tribulation will be 7 years total, which 3.5 years are you referring to? I can't answer questions that are vague.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

2.) Though the man-child is caught up to the throne just before the 3.5 years actually it is at the end of the 3.5 years.

?

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

3.) The man-child who died (they loved not their soul-life even unto death) are STILL physically dead when it is shown- And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12:5)

I've always been taught and believed that the "woman" is Israel and the "man-child" is Jesus Christ. If that is incorrect, what does it matter?

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

How will you show these ones still are in the grave?

Why would I have to? The Bible is clear about the resurrection of the saved. The majority will have already died and their bodies are in the grave, and they are in heaven and will return with King Jesus at the Second Advent. See Rev 19b.

The believers still alive at the end of the tribulation will be changed per 1 Cor 15:52.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

4.) You should show that all the resurrected saints must be caught up to the throne in the third heavens either altogether BEFORE the great tribulation of 3.5 years or alltogether at the END of the same period.

No I don't, because the Bible doesn't say that. In fact, the Bible is clear that there will NOT be any resurrected saints up in heaven.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

But Matthew says the dramatic appearing of the coming Christ in the clouds is "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt. 24:29)

That is called the Second Advent, when all believers will receive their immortal glorified bodies and then reign/serve the King in His Millennial Kingdom. On earth.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

There is no rush. Take your time. These things take time. I changed my belief in some things after time. That's allowed you know?

Of course it's allowed. And encouraged when someone has an erroneous view about the Bible. I was taught a pretrib rapture to heaven from my youth, but when I really got serious about what the Bible says (Bereans), I realized I had been taught wrong. So I repented (changed my mind) of that view and now believe what the Bible SAYS and not what man tells me.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

You must master all the facts given. That is not always easy.

Nonsense. No one WILL "mater all the facts given". For example, I have given you very clear facts about resurrection, all found in 1 Cor 15:23. But, have you repented of your multi resurrection view yet? No.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<Since 1 Cor 15:23 FORBIDS your ideas about resurrection, it is obviously a reference to the coming wrath of God with the harvest being God's wrath. That is . . . when you you consider all of the context.>>>

There is not much about judgment or wrath in First Corinthians 15.

I didn't say there was. I was referring to Rev 14. Hm. Are you paying attention?

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

But it is a chapter on the fact and nature of resurrection.

And 15:23 very specifically shows that there will be one resurrection, which is when He comes, and all believers will be in attendance.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

I do not believe that we can dictate to God that He has no right to manifest different degrees of glory with the resurrected. God has that authority and right and ability to vary the rewards during the millennial age.

Of course no one has any right to dictate what God does or can do.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

How much the SOUL was transformed, I believe, will effect in some way the manifestation of glory with the transfigured BODY.

I do not believe the soul will be transformed because I haven't read it in the Bible.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

The evidence of this in resurrection you dismissed. I cannot dismiss it that easily.

What have I dismissed? If you are going to throw out accusations, please at least include what I'm being charged with.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

There is another glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption; (1 Cor. 15:41,42)

Paul is simply making the distinction between the physical and immortal bodies. iow, between the physical body with the resurrection body.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Now I want you to pay close attention to what Jesus said about the differing levels of greatness in the kingdom of the heavens. Too many of us gloss over this.

I am quite informed that there will not be equality in heaven. Some will be greatly rewarded and some will "suffer loss", per 1 Cor 3:15.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Did you notice that? Least in the kingdom ------ great in the kingdom ---- and whatever is in-between. Does that not reveal degress of reward in addition to the gift of free grace?

Of course it does. But aren't you getting rather off track here?

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

IS it then too difficult to imagine God who transforms our souls and transfigures our bodies can manifest least to great and other stages inbetween?

Again, way too vague to answer. What "other stages inbetween"? And you need a verse or paragraph to support your answer, so I'll know it comes from the Bible and not your imagination.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

How about this? We are not given all the details. But we are given enough to understand that how much our souls were transformed will effect our degree of honor bestowed in the millennial kingdom age?

I'm waiting for any evidence that our souls will be transformed.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Brothers, I do not account of myself to have laid hold; but one thing I do: Forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before,

I pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called me upward. (Phil. 3:13,14)

Here Paul is referring to eternal rewards.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<I do believe that 1 Thess 4:13-17 is the singular resurrection of all believers at the Second Advent. But the (full) context of Rev 14 shows the 'harvest' to be God's wrath on the earth.>>>

You, I think, are confusing the Harvest of the wheat with a gthering of the ripened grapes of wrath.

The Harvest of the earth as wheat is salvation of saints of God.

How would you prove this claim? Claims are cheap, but proof is costly.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

The gathering of the ripened grapes of wrath is destruction of the armies of unbelievers fighting physically fighting Christ's return.

OK.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

1.) The Harvest of SAVED -

And I saw, and behold, there was a white cloud, and on the cloud One like the Son of Man sitting, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.

And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe.

And He who sat on the cloud thrust His sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped. (vs. 14-16)

This says nothing about a resurrection or trip to heaven.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<All believers will be resurrected at the Second Advent, and NOT be led back to heaven. They will STAY on earth and serve/reign with Christ during the Millennial reign.>>>>

I agree basically. The early raptured ones are taken to the third heavens.

How can you "agree basically" when 1 Cor 15:23 SAYS that there will be one resurrection of all the saved at the Second Advent. There will be NO "early" and later resurrections.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Then Christ begins His descent from Heaven towards the earth. He hovers there concealed in a cloud - a kind of mysterious pavillion in the sky.

Imagination.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

And I saw, and behold, there was a white cloud, and on the cloud One like the Son of Man sitting, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. (Rev. 14:14)

He brings from the third heavens the early raptured and resurrected and raptured ones. And the majority are taken not to heaven but to the air.

This doesn't make any sense. You've got "early raptured" "and resurrected" "and raptured ones". You've mentioned "raptured" twice. I have no idea what your point is.

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will be always with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:17)

Eventually He will appear on the earth lightening up the whole world with His presence.

"eventually"?????

38 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

After these things I saw another Angel coming down out of heaven, having great authority; and the earth was illumined with His glory. (Rev. 18:1)

At the judgment seat in the sky the decision will be made by Christ as to who will be rewarded to reign with Him on the earth.

I will stop here for now.

Actually, the Bible doesn't say where the judgment seat will occur. Why do you say it will be "in the sky"? What verse says that?

Or, is that your imagination talking?

Feedmysheep · December 31, 2024

9 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

<<<But here's the deal. There is NO "following to heaven". No verse describes Jesus leading resurrected believers to heaven. And 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't permit such an idea.>>>

I believe that just as Enoch walked with God and was taken somewhere testifying to the world of his righteous walk, so it will be towards the close of the church age.

<<< There is NO "following to heaven". No verse describes Jesus leading resurrected believers to heaven. And 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't permit such an idea.>>>

Not all matters concerning the close of the church age were covered in one chapter. Not all the matters concerning Christ's first coming we covered in a single chapter of the Old Testament.

<<<How do you know that you yourself might end up among them? >>>

I corrected a typo I made to clarify. What I said was - how do YOU know that YOU will not be one of those firstfruits? I do not claim to know that I am one. I neither claim to know that I or anyone presently alive to read this discussion could not be among them.

Now I use to not believe anyone except an unmarried living Christian could be of that group seen as firstfruits in Revelation 14:1-5. After a long period I changed my mind. I will not go into the reasons now. But even not considering the 144,000 of Revelation 14 there STILL is an indication of a unannounced secretive snatching away from the Gospels.

Now I want to urge you, even if you will never agree with selective rapture, I insist that you read the verses I include. This is safe. This will never hurt you. Please let the verses speak even if you can never agree with how I use them.

Now, when Enoch walked with God, God took him and he could not be found. But his being taken out of the earth was a TESTIMONY that God was vindicating his life. This was God demonstrating that Enoch's walk for those 300 some years was well pleasing to God. Surely he was not the only God believer at that time.

By faith Enoch was translated so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had translated him. For before his translation he obtained the testimony that he had been well pleasing to God. (Heb. 11:5)

Even without Revelation 14 I believe there will be a corporate Enoch whose rapture will manifest to those left of the daily life which well pleased Jesus Christ. The sign of the finite number of raptured firstfruits in Revelation 14 merely confirms this for me.

Matthew 24 in plain words already indicated that the Lord will manifest to those left who was leading a daily walk well pleasing to Him.

I would add: The early pre-tribulation rapture by selection is not because of agreement with a doctrine of such. Neither is doctrinal agreement with an early selective rapture guarantee of ones participation in it. It is the walk that matters.

Now I ask you. If the Lord should want to come and use your removal by rapture as a testimony to the church and world, will you refuse saying "No, no Lord Jesus. I don't WANT you to take me now."

Would that not be foolish? You love the Lord Jesus, Right? Wouldn't you want to go along with what the Lord Jesus might want? If I were you and this happened I would say "Amen Lord. Your will for me be done."

Now suppose that you learn to live a habitual well pleasing life to the Lord. And you die. If the Lord should want to demonstrate that though you died in faith. your overcoming is rewarded with an early pre-tribulation resurrection and rapture, would you refuse? Is it more than a matter of what YOU or I wish. It is more important what the will of our Father is.

Early rapture is the response of obedience. The exhortation is - But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man. (Luke 21:36)

To be watchful to prevail and escape the world-wide trial is the response of obedience. Any exhortation to believers may be obeyed or disobeyed.

And the sign of the firstfruits standing before the Son of Man as the Lamb in heaven indicates that some will heed the warning. And some will be counted worthy to stand before the Lord Jesus in heaven having been raptured.

At this juncture I would add that I very much appreciate your view that God's sustaining grace can see believers through suffering. But anyone with a machismo attitude that they are looking forward to pass through the great tribulation simply doesn't know what they are asking for. No Christian should out of a macho "bring it on" attitude should want to be here at that time. Trust the word of God. That will not be an enjoyment.

<<<I know what the Bible says, and therefore I am beyond convinced that NO believer will be resurrected and then taken to heaven.>>>

But this does not make good sense. We are told in a couple of places of human beings in heaven in Revelation (if not elsewhere in the NT). How did they GET there if they were not taken there?

After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God. (Rev. 19:1)

Where is the great multitude? If you answer as you should, you will say that they are "in heaven." But if so then a rapture to heaven must have taken place. Revelation 19 proves that at least some believing saints of Christ are taken to heaven.

<<<So, how would I "do damage to Christ being the Son of God", when He certainly IS the Son of God? Your question is quite puzzling.>>>

My point was that what Jesus PIONEERED to be He did so that we might FOLLOW Him. That does not include the eternal redemption that He alone accomplished.

But He was THE Firstfruit in that sense - His death and resurrection. But this all was for the cause that we be like Him.

So that there would be a remnant number if firstfruits who followed Him is a glory to "the firstfruits, Christ" rather than a devaluing of His uniqueness.

<<<Don't forget John 1:12 as well. And 1 John 3:1.>>>

I certainly will not. Let's see them. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name, (John 1:12)

This is about the unspeakable privilege given, to be born of God! How each one born of God goes on to GROW in God's life remains to be seen.

Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and we are. Because of this the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. (1 John 3:1)

Please be clear. We are children of God NOW regardless of when we are raptured. Early pre-tribulation rapture as a reward for watching does not make those left no longer children of God.

As a matter of fact First John which you refer me to, reinforces the idea that when Christ comes the possibility exists that those not strongly abiding in Him may be put to shame. Not eternally lost do I mean. I mean "put to shame" temporarily.

No? Listen a immediately preceding verse - 1 John 2:28.

And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested, we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming. (2:28)

Here it is brought out by some scholars that this is not just a FEELING of being ashamed. It is a matter of being PUT to shame. Not many English translations are faithful to this. The Recovery Version I usually use is. Not many English translations bring out this sense of the Greek. Smith's Literal Translation does.

And now, little children, remain in him; that, when he be manifested, we might have freedom of speech, that we be not shamed from him in his presence. (SLT)

Douay-Rheims brings this out with - And now, little children, abide in him, that when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be confounded by him at his coming.

I submit to you that it is not only a matter of feeling boldness at rapture. It is also a matter of not being caught off guard that we be PUT to shame, confounded, disciplined because of not abiding in the anointing at that moment.

Would not it be a putting to shame if a rapture occurs and I a Christian find that I am left having missed it? Would that not be being put to shame for awhile before Jesus and others who knew that I was a believer? I think so.

Since we Christians all know we are prone to neglect the teaching of the anointing Holy Spirit, a passage like this should give us the sober incentive to practice, to develop the habit of abiding in Him.

The anointing of the indwelling Spirit is ever teaching us to abide regularly in Him.

And as for you, the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone teach you; but as His anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, abide in Him. (1 John 2:27)

Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. (John 5:4)

Edited December 31, 2024 by Feedmysheep

FreeGrace · December 31, 2024

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<But here's the deal. There is NO "following to heaven". No verse describes Jesus leading resurrected believers to heaven. And 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't permit such an idea.>>>

I believe that just as Enoch walked with God and was taken somewhere testifying to the world of his righteous walk, so it will be towards the close of the church age.

Of course, everyone is free to believe what they want, but why not just believe what the Bible says? Enoch STILL doesn't have a resurrection body. He's waiting, along with "those who belong to Him", as 1 Cor 15:23 says in very plain language.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<< There is NO "following to heaven". No verse describes Jesus leading resurrected believers to heaven. And 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't permit such an idea.>>>

Not all matters concerning the close of the church age were covered in one chapter.

I'm not talking about one chapter. I've shown 4 verses, spanning the OT - NT that SAY there will be A (singular) resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved.

And just one verse; 1 Cor 15:23 tells us EVERYTHING we need to know about the resurrection of the saved.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<How do you know that you yourself might end up among them? >>>

I corrected a typo I made to clarify. What I said was - how do YOU know that YOU will not be one of those firstfruits? I do not claim to know that I am one. I neither claim to know that I or anyone presently alive to read this discussion could not be among them.

The firstfruits of Rev 14 are evangelists who were evangelized by the Two Witnesses.

And even those 144K will NOT be resurrected until Christ returns to earth.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Now I use to not believe anyone except an unmarried living Christian could be of that group seen as firstfruits in Revelation 14:1-5. After a long period I changed my mind. I will not go into the reasons now. But even not considering the 144,000 of Revelation 14 there STILL is an indication of a unannounced secretive snatching away from the Gospels.

Where is this imagined "indication of an unannounced secretive snatching away" from the gospels? If you have evidence, please share. So far, all I've seen from you is opinion.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Now I want to urge you, even if you will never agree with selective rapture, I insist that you read the verses I include. This is safe. This will never hurt you. Please let the verses speak even if you can never agree with how I use them.

I've always read all of the verses that you quote, and frequently comment that they are irrelevant to the subject of resurrection. And you've shown NO verses about any "secretive snatching away".

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Now, when Enoch walked with God, God took him and he could not be found. But his being taken out of the earth was a TESTIMONY that God was vindicating his life. This was God demonstrating that Enoch's walk for those 300 some years was well pleasing to God. Surely he was not the only God believer at that time.

Since Adam, of course there have always been multiple believers on earth.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

By faith Enoch was translated so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had translated him. For before his translation he obtained the testimony that he had been well pleasing to God. (Heb. 11:5)

What is your point with Enoch? For me, the point is; since Enoch hasn't physically died yet, he will be one of the Two Witnesses during the Tribulation, since the Bible SAYS in Heb 9:27 everyone is destined to die ONCE. So he has yet to die. Along with Elijah.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Even without Revelation 14 I believe there will be a corporate Enoch whose rapture will manifest to those left of the daily life which well pleased Jesus Christ. The sign of the finite number of raptured firstfruits in Revelation 14 merely confirms this for me.

You keep making up stuff. Now you imagine "a corporate Enoch". What in the world does that mean and why would there be one? Or is this just another excuse to believe that there will be multiple resurrections?

If you don't have a clear verse on this, it's just another opinion.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Matthew 24 in plain words already indicated that the Lord will manifest to those left who was leading a daily walk well pleasing to Him.

If there are "plain words" in Matt 24 that support what you are saying, why not just QUOTE them when you make the claim? I don't believe what you post. I believe what the Bible SAYS. So if you want to convince me of something, you need to quote a verse that SAYS what you SAY. Like I do.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

I would add: The early pre-tribulation rapture by selection is not because of agreement with a doctrine of such. Neither is doctrinal agreement with an early selective rapture guarantee of ones participation in it. It is the walk that matters.

Imagination running wild. Give me a verse or passage that SAYS what you SAY.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Now I ask you. If the Lord should want to come and use your removal by rapture as a testimony to the church and world, will you refuse saying "No, no Lord Jesus. I don't WANT you to take me now."

These "what if . . ." scenarios are hilarious. I don't deal in the "what if's . . .". I deal in the "what is . . .". iow, reality, as STATED in the Bible.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Now suppose that you learn to live a habitual well pleasing life to the Lord. And you die. If the Lord should want to demonstrate that though you died in faith. your overcoming is rewarded with an early pre-tribulation resurrection and rapture, would you refuse? Is it more than a matter of what YOU or I wish. It is more important what the will of our Father is.

Please corral that imagination of yours. There is no such thing as an "early pre-trib selective rapture". Or the Bible would have SAID SO.

You haven't given ANY evidence of what you believe, so where are your sources? Some wild haired pastor, your own imagination, or what, exactly?

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Early rapture is the response of obedience.

Please stop. Unless and until you provide actual evidence from Scripture, I'm not interested in your imagination.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

The exhortation is - But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man. (Luke 21:36)

Has nothing to do with your imagination. Do you not realize that the word "beseeching" means to 'pray'? So you think individual believers can pray for this imagined rapture? Dream on.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

At this juncture I would add that I very much appreciate your view that God's sustaining grace can see believers through suffering. But anyone with a machismo attitude that they are looking forward to pass through the great tribulation simply doesn't know what they are asking for.

Hardly. Most believers will be martyred during the Tribulation. Those that are left will be a rather small group.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

No Christian should out of a macho "bring it on" attitude should want to be here at that time. Trust the word of God. That will not be an enjoyment.

Of course not. And I suspect that the hard core (nosed) pre-tribbers will have their faith shaken very badly when they realize they are in the trib! I feel very sad for them.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<I know what the Bible says, and therefore I am beyond convinced that NO believer will be resurrected and then taken to heaven.>>>

But this does not make good sense.

You really mean that what the Bible teaches "does not make good sense"?? It makes PERFECT sense. God is PERFECT. What He wrote is PERFECT. Ain't no rapture to heaven. Or there would be a verse about it. And you haven't shown any.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

We are told in a couple of places of human beings in heaven in Revelation (if not elsewhere in the NT). How did they GET there if they were not taken there?

After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God. (Rev. 19:1)

Where is the great multitude? If you answer as you should, you will say that they are "in heaven." But

if so then a rapture to heaven must have taken place. Revelation 19 proves that at least some believing saints of Christ are taken to heaven.

Of course they are in heaven. They are all the saints who have already died, from Adam forward. And it sure will be a GREAT multitude. These aren't just trib martyrs. They are every saved person in history who has already died.

So no, Rev 19 does not prove your imagination that "some saints are taken to heaven". Every saved person who dies will be "at home with the Lord" per 2 Cor 5:6,8. But that isn't a resurrection nor a "rapture".

When the poor man Lazarus died, was he raptured to Abraham's bosom in Luke 16? No. Jesus said he DIED and the angels carried him to Abraham's bosom. That's what happens when a saint dies. They are escorted to heaven. In the OT all saints when to Hades, to Paradise a compartment in Hades.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<So, how would I "do damage to Christ being the Son of God", when He certainly IS the Son of God? Your question is quite puzzling.>>>

My point was that what Jesus PIONEERED to be He did so that we might FOLLOW Him. That does not include the eternal redemption that He alone accomplished.

<<< This is rather bizarre. What do you mean by what "Jesus pioneered to be"?? What Jesus came to DO was be the ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice for the sins of mankind. And that sure DOES "include the eternal redemption that He alone accomplished". So your statement is quite puzzling.>>>

<<<Don't forget John 1:12 as well. And 1 John 3:1.>>>

I certainly will not. Let's see them. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name, (John 1:12)

This is about the unspeakable privilege given, to be born of God! How each one born of God goes on to GROW in God's life remains to be seen.

Rather it's quite SPEAKABLE!! We need to shout it from the rooftops!

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and we are. Because of this the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. (1 John 3:1)

Please be clear. We are children of God NOW regardless of when we are raptured.

Rather, please be clear: we will never be "raptured". No resurrected believer will be taken to heaven, or there would be verses that say so.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Early pre-tribulation rapture as a reward for watching does not make those left no longer children of God.

This is merely your imagination, since you have no evidence at all for it.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

As a matter of fact First John which you refer me to, reinforces the idea that when Christ comes the possibility exists that those not strongly abiding in Him may be put to shame. Not eternally lost do I mean. I mean "put to shame" temporarily.

It's more than a possibility. It is a promise.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Listen a immediately preceding verse - 1 John 2:28.

And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested, we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming. (2:28)

Here it is brought out by some scholars that this is not just a FEELING of being ashamed. It is a matter of being PUT to shame. Not many English translations are faithful to this. The Recovery Version I usually use is. Not many English translations bring out this sense of the Greek. Smith's Literal Translation does.

Do you understand and can explain what John meant by "abiding"?

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

And now, little children, remain in him; that, when he be manifested, we might have freedom of speech, that we be not ashamed from him in his presence. (SLT)

Ditto for "remain in Him".

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Douay-Rheims brings this out with - And now, little children, abide in him, that when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be confounded by him at his coming.

I submit to you that it is not only a matter of feeling boldness at rapture. It is also a matter of not being caught off guard that we be PUT to shame, confounded, disciplined because of not abiding in the anointing at that moment.

Apparently you seem unaware of the fact that "when He comes", being the Second Advent when "those who belong to Him" will all be resurrected at that event, the King will hold the Bema, or JSC, per 2 Cor 5:10 and every believer will be evaluated (judged) on ALL that they have done on earth, "whether good or bad". This is WHEN believers will be shamed "when He comes". Not when he appears but when they APPEAR before the King on the Bema.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Would not it be a putting to shame if a rapture occurs and I a Christian find that I am left having missed it?

Won't you feel ashamed to have ignored the clear message of 1 Cor 15:23 when you finally realize, in eternity, that there is no 'rapture'?

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Since we Christians all know we are prone to neglect the teaching of the anointing Holy Spirit, a passage like this should give us the sober incentive to practice, to develop the habit of abiding in Him.

I look forward to your explanation of what "abiding" means.

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

The anointing of the indwelling Spirit is ever teaching us to abide regularly in Him.

Do you know when a believer is teachable? Or does all this occur automatically?

9 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

And as for you, the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone teach you; but as His anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, abide in Him. (1 John 2:27)

Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. (John 5:4)

Let's see what you understand about "abiding".

Feedmysheep · December 31, 2024

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

<<<Enoch STILL doesn't have a resurrection body. He's waiting, along with "those who belong to Him", as 1 Cor 15:23 says in very plain language.>>>

The main point I have with Enoch is not the state of his body at this moment. But his living was a testimony that God vindicated by translating him. I am not even sure where Enoch was taken.

But the pre-tribulation saints taken will be as a collective Enoch. Everything does not have to be elaborated on in the one chapter of First Corinthians.

<<<I'm not talking about one chapter. I've shown 4 verses, spanning the OT - NT that SAY there will be A (singular) resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved.>>>

There is also a singular baptism. (Eph. 4:5): This did not stop God from carrying the singular baptism of all the believers at different times. We can believe in one resurrection and still believe that the collective man-child of deceased overcomers are resurrected and transfigured before the conclusion of the GT.

<<<And just one verse; 1 Cor 15:23 tells us EVERYTHING we need to know about the resurrection of the saved.>>>

I don't think the revelation of a pre-tribulation resurrection and rapture of the collective man-child requires not believing in 1 Cor. 15:23.

<<<The firstfruits of Rev 14 are evangelists who were evangelized by the Two Witnesses.>>>

Some do believe that. But comparing the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation ch. 7 and the 144,000 of chapter 14 carefully, I believe reveals that they are not the same. But that is a discussion I'd have on another dedicated thread.

The significance of the number though (12k times 12k), carries the same kind of symbolic meaning - a great thousandfold perfection in God's administration. I let this comparison pass for the moment.

<<<And even those 144K will NOT be resurrected until Christ returns to earth.>>>

Resurrection is not mentioned in either case. It is not mentioned for the 144K preserved Israelites in ch. 7 and it is not mentioned for the 144K firstfruits in ch. 14. However I believe neither group died.

The 144K Israelites (ch.7) are sovereignly PRESERVED to remain unhurt and alive through the GT. And the 144K firstfruits (ch. 4) enjoy a rapture never having died. They followed the Lamb while alive and like Enoch - taken by God alive. Since this is such a unique an experience in world history their "new song" represents a unique experience that no other saints have ever had. (with the exception possibly of Elijah or Enoch).

And they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been purchased from the earth. (Rev. 14:3)

The man-child of Revelation 12 are a remnant of overcomers resurrected and raptured before the 1,260 day GT.

The firstfruits of Revelation 14 are a remnant of overcomers not resurrected but raptured before the 1,260 day GT.

There is no reason why this renders not true - "But each one in his own order: the firstfruits, Christ; then those who are Christ’s at His coming;" (1 Cor. 15:23)

<<<Where is this imagined "indication of an unannounced secretive snatching away" from the gospels? If you have evidence, please share. So far, all I've seen from you is opinion.>>>

The secret nature of the pre-tribulation selective rapture is seen in these points from Matthew 24:

A thief in the night comes by surprise, unannounced - Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (v.42)

To be fair the "thief" motif is also used for the rapture at the end of the GT. (Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he who watches and keeps his garments that he may not walk naked and they see his shame.) (Rev. 16:15) Because this coming as a thief is mentioned between 6th and 7th last bowls of the final outpouring of God's wrath we may know that this is about the end of the GT rapture. But it only mentions that He comes as a thief. Whereas the pre-tribulation rapture He adds "in the night". However, both takings are a matter of Christ stealing out of the earth that which is precious to Him. Hence "thief" describes His coming in both instances.

A thief in the night does not blow a trumpet to signal his arrival. A thief in the night comes in secret and by utter surprise. Christ coming as a thief near around the time of the pouring out of the seven bowls of God's wrath is accompanied with worldwide supernatural calamities and impossible to miss indications in the skies.

This is why Matthew 24:40-51 emphasises more the unexpected. Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes.

But know this, that if the householder had known in which watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. (vs. 42,43)

But the rapture of the end of the GT is signaled by the loud trumpet of God and the voice of the archangel. Because the Lord Himself, with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will be always with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:16,17)

<<<I've always read all of the verses that you quote, and frequently comment that they are irrelevant to the subject of resurrection. And you've shown NO verses about any "secretive snatching away".>>>

Evidence is not persuasion. I do not garuantee that showing you the evidence as I have, will persuade you. There is a saying I believe - :"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

You have not shown that the one taken working in the field needs resurrection.

You have not shown that the one grinding at the mill needs resurrection.

You have not shown that the man-child's rapture is after the 1,260 days rather than before.

You have not shown that the "they, thier, them," and "our brothers" refers to someone else in Rev. 12 besides the man-child.

You have not shown that the firstfruits of Rev. 14 died.

You have not shown that the meaning in Revelation 14 of distinguishing firstfruits from harvest.

<<<What is your point with Enoch?>>>

I told you already. The early raptured ones are like a corporate Enoch. Enoch walked with God and was taken for a testimony. The same thing will happen with some watching, vigilant, following the Lamb before the GT.

Enoch's testimony is not an arbitrary and miscellaneous unrelated matter. Like many other things in the OT they were written for our admonition for the end of the age.

Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our admonition, unto whom the ends of the ages have come. (1 Cor. 10:11)

<<<For me, the point is; since Enoch hasn't physically died yet, he will be one of the Two Witnesses during the Tribulation, since the Bible SAYS in Heb 9:27 everyone is destined to die ONCE. So he has yet to die. Along with Elijah.>>>

I believe the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. But some do believe they are Enoch and Elijah. My opinion is that the key thing with the two witnesses in Revelation 11 is not that neither died. But that they represent the Law and the Prophets is the key.

<<<You keep making up stuff.>>>

This is often said by people who cannot see what is being written there in the Scripture. The interpretation of some things you disagree with. So you say it is made up stuff. You're welcomed to have a different opinion. I am persuaded and will teach that there will be a selection of overcomers to be raptured before the GT. Some will be living overcomers never having died. And others will be overcomers of the bygone ages are presently in paradise. That is not heaven but paradise under the earth.

This view was not arrived at suddenly. I first started to seriously study the Bible 50 years ago. What I write on the boards has been carefully studied.

<<< Now you imagine "a corporate Enoch" >>>

Once again, Enoch's experience of being taken alive is not some unrelated miscellaneous matter. We need to see the big picture of the whole Bible. And like other things in the OT- Now these things occurred as examples to us, that we should not be ones who lust after evil things, even as they also lusted. (1 Cor. 10:6)

I will be opening up a new thread soon on Saturation / Sanctification.

Edited December 31, 2024 by Feedmysheep

FreeGrace · December 31, 2024

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:
<<<Enoch STILL doesn't have a resurrection body. He's waiting, along with "those who belong to Him", as 1 Cor 15:23 says in very plain language.>>>

The main point I have with Enoch is not the state of his body at this moment. But his living was a testimony that God vindicated by translating him. I am not even sure where Enoch was taken.

The Bible doesn't say, but obviously he would go to where all dead saints went in the OT.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

But the pre-tribulation saints taken will be as a collective Enoch. Everything does not have to be elaborated on in the one chapter of First Corinthians.

I haven't used only 1 chapter. Here they are again: Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15, all saying that there will be A resurrection for the saved and A resurrection for the unsaved. And all agree with 1 Cor 15:23, 1 Thess 4:13-17, 1 Cor 15:52 and Rev 20:4-6 regarding just ONE resurrection for all saved people. That's 7 verses/passages.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<I'm not talking about one chapter. I've shown 4 verses, spanning the OT - NT that SAY there will be A (singular) resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved.>>>

There is also a singular baptism. (Eph. 4:5): This did not stop God from carrying the singular baptism of all the believers at one time.

What does the 'baptism' in Eph 4:5 refer to? Please explain.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

We can believe in one resurrection and still believe that the collective man-child of deceased overcomers are resurrected and transfigured before the conclusion of the GT.

Well, one can, but . . . that would demonstrate a lot of confusion. 1 resurrection means just ONE resurrection. We're not talking like the Trinity: One God but 3 Persons. Just one resurrection, and all believers will be resurrected at the Second Advent, which proves that NO resurrected believers will be taken to heaven.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<And just one verse; 1 Cor 15:23 tells us EVERYTHING we need to know about the resurrection of the saved.>>>

I don't think the revelation of a pre-tribulation resurrection and rapture of the collective man-child requires not believing in 1 Cor. 15:23.

One is free to believe whatever you want, but such thinking is very confused. And contradictory.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<The firstfruits of Rev 14 are evangelists who were evangelized by the Two Witnesses.>>>

Some do believe that. But comparing the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation ch. 7 and the 144,000 of chapter 14 carefully, I believe reveals that they are not the same. But that is a discussion I'd have on another dedicated thread.

Regarding resurrection, I'm not interested in Rev 14, where the word isn't even mentioned.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<And even those 144K will NOT be resurrected until Christ returns to earth.>>>

Resurrection is not mentioned in either case.

Doesn't matter. I've shown the verses that plainly say that there will be one resurrection of all the saved.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

The man-child of Revelation 12 are a remnant of overcomers resurrected and raptured before the 1,260 day GT.

You haven't proved it. And the Bible doesn't say it.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

There is no reason why this renders not true - "But each one in his own order: the firstfruits, Christ; then those who are Christ’s at His coming;" (1 Cor. 15:23)

If your opinions were true, they would "render not true" 1 Cor 15:23. But because of 1 Cor 15:23, your opinions are not true.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<Where is this imagined "indication of an unannounced secretive snatching away" from the gospels? If you have evidence, please share. So far, all I've seen from you is opinion.>>>

The secret nature of the pre-tribulation selective rapture is seen in these points from Matthew 24:

A thief in the night comes by surprise, unannounced -  Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (v.42)

To be fair the "thief" motive is also used for the rapture at the end of the GT. (Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he who watches and keeps his garments that he may not walk naked and they see his shame.) (Rev. 16:15) Because this coming as a thief is mentioned between 6th and 7th last bowls of the final outpouring of God's wrath we may know that this is about the end of the GT rapture. But it only mentions that He comes as a thief. Whereas the pre-tribulation rapture He adds "in the night". However, both takings are a matter of Christ stealing out of the earth that which is precious to Him. Hence "thief" describes His coming in both instances.

A thief in the night does not blow a trumpet to signal his arrival. A thief in the night comes in secret and by utter surprise. Christ coming as a thief near around the time of the pouring out of the seven bowls of God's wrath is accompanied with worldwide supernatural calamities and impossible to miss indications in the skies.

This is why Matthew 24:40-51 emphasises more the unexpected.  Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes.

But know this, that if the householder had known in which watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. (vs. 42,43)

That's just a lot of presumption. The warning is about the Second Advent. Not some secretive pre-trib rapture.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

But the rapture of the end of the GT is signaled by the loud trumpet of God and the voice of the archangel. Because the Lord Himself, with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will be always with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:16,17)

All of this refers to the Second Advent. It does not support your theories.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<I've always read all of the verses that you quote, and frequently comment that they are irrelevant to the subject of resurrection. And you've shown NO verses about any "secretive snatching away".>>>

Evidence is not persuasion.

Maybe not to you, but certainly for most everyone. Why did Jesus perform miracles? To PROVE (evidence) He was God.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

I do not garuantee that showing you the evidence as I have, will persuade you. There is a saying I believe - :"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

How can anyone be "convinced against his will"? That is an impossibility.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

You have not shown that the one taken working in the field needs resurrection.

Please explain why I would need to.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

You have not shown that the one grinding at the mill needs resurrection.

Why do I need to?

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

You have not shown that the man-child's rapture is after the 1,260 days rather than before.

What I HAVE shown you is that there will be just ONE resurrection of all saints, and all at the same event, the Second Advent, which is what 1 Cor 15:23 says.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

You have not shown that the "they, thier, them," and "our brothers" refers to someone else in Rev. 12 besides the man-child.

Why does that matter? And why bring up something that you haven't even addressed before? Have you asked me to show otherwise? No.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

You have not shown that the firstfruits of Rev. 14 died.

I don't need to. Irrelevant to the singular resurrection of the saved.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

You have not shown that the meaning in Revelation 14 of distinguishing firstfruits from harvest.

There is no connection to the singular resurrection of the saved. So I don't need to.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<What is your point with Enoch?>>>

I told you already. The early raptured ones are like a corporate Enoch. Enoch walked with God and was taken for a testimony. The same thing will happen with some watching, vigilant, following the Lamb before the GT.

This doesn't even come close to explaining what is meant by a "corporate enoch". And you haven't provided ANY verses that support such a notion.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our admonition, unto whom the ends of the ages have come. (1 Cor. 10:11)

Do you have any idea what this verse is referring to??? Certainly not end times or resurrection.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<For me, the point is; since Enoch hasn't physically died yet, he will be one of the Two Witnesses during the Tribulation, since the Bible SAYS in Heb 9:27 everyone is destined to die ONCE. So he has yet to die. Along with Elijah.>>>

I believe the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. But some do believe they are Enoch and Elijah. My opinion is that the key thing with the two witnesses in Revelation 11 is not that neither died. But that they represent the Law and the Prophets is the key.

Since the Bible SAYS it is apointed once for man to DIE in Heb 9:27, it seems that Enoch and Elijah would be the obvious ones.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<You keep making up stuff.>>>

This is often said by people who cannot see what is being written there in the Scripture.

That's enough. Don't condescend me as if I am unable to see what you are claiming even though you CAN'T provide any clear verses that support your claims. That's just a cheap defense.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

The interpretation of some things you disagree with. So you say it is made up stuff

What I say is "made up" is the claims that you can't support with verses that say what you say. I do what the Bereans did with Paul's preaching, and your claims simply don't add up.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

You're welcomed to have a different opinion.

I don't have opinions. I have clear verses from the Bible that persuade me.

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

I am persuaded and will teach that there will be a selection of overcomers to be raptured before the GT.

Well, what exactly persuades you, since you don't have verses that say so in plain language?

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

This view was not arrived at suddenly. I first started to seriously study the Bible 50 years ago. What I write on the boards has been carefully studied.

Is that so? Then why can't you provide plainly worded verses that say what you say?

4 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<< Now you imagine "a corporate Enoch" >>>

Once again, Enoch's experience of being taken alive is not some unrelated miscellaneous matter. We need to see the big picture of the whole Bible. And like other things in the OT- Now these things occurred as examples to us, that we should not be ones who lust after evil things, even as they also lusted. (1 Cor. 10:6)

Why do you quote totally unrelated verses?? Paul was referring to the Exodus generation and their failures. Not even close to resurrection in any sense. Much less about rapture.

Feedmysheep · December 31, 2024

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

<<<You haven't given ANY evidence of what you believe, so where are your sources?>>>

Yes I have.

<<<Please stop.>>>

No indeed. There will be a rapture of a watching remnant and ready saints according to Matthew 24. According to Revelation 12 a resurrected and rapture man-child is caught up to the throne before the 1,260 days. According to Revelation 14 the whole crop of believers removed from the earth (though not taken to the same place) will consist of firstfruits and harvest. The two reapings being separated by the great tribulation.

<<< Unless and until you provide actual evidence from Scripture, I'm not interested in your imagination.>>>

You have some evidence. When asked for your alternative explanations of some things you shrink away.

<<< Do you not realize that the word "beseeching" means to 'pray'? So you think individual believers can pray for this imagined rapture? Dream on.>>>

What the Lord said was to beseech and to live so as to be worthy of our request. If it were impossible He would not have exhorted us. It is a corporate request. It is a collective prayer. And the Lord said where there is utter harmony we may ask and He will fulfill our petition. Read your New Testament.

If you abide in Me and My words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. (John 15:17)

And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him. (1 John 5:15)

You may be so hung up on imagining pre-tribulation is cowardly escapism that you cannot see it is the will of God. And we should love one another in such harmony that our prayers have impact and authority.

We are praying for what is important to God. We are praying so as to echo what His's heart's intention is. And there will be a remnant whose petition will be answered.

You need to see with faith the promises of the New Testament.

Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes into Me, the works which I do he shall do also; and greater than these he shall do because I am going to the Father.

And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. (John 4:12-14)

You see this asking in His name is not some superficial formality. It is not asking any trivial matter to spend on our lust and tacking on at the end "In the name of Jesus." To ask in His name means we are thoroughly in Him living unto His purpose.

A harmony of unity is arrived at in the end times by at least a critical mass of overcomers. That is why it is to the church in Philadelphia that Jesus says He puts before them an open door which no one can shut. The oneness is among this church of brotherly love (Philadelphia). And to such a remnant of saints living in unity, the promise is given that they will be kept from the hour of world-wide trial.

Individually and selfishly, no, I do not think such petition for escape will necessarily be granted. But for the Philadelphia brothers in unity, in love, in one accord, THIER prayer will have impact.

I think that the rapture you DON'T believe in is not the rapture that I believe in. The pop "Left Behind" or "Late Great Planet Earth" rapture that you do not believe in is not the selective rapture we see in the New Testament.

Now I have more evidence for you. But this thread is about a minority of lving overcomers and deceased overcomers will be rewarded with a pre-tribulation rapture or resurrection / rapture. The vaster majority of His people will miss this but will be taken up by the Lord at the end of the GT.

It is not a matter of our whims, our imagination, or preferences. It is a matter of our readiness for what the Father has ordained and warned His people about.

There are two aspects to this minority rapture pre-tribulation. On on hand it is seen as fulfilling the heart's desire of love of the Lamb and His Father. But on the other hand it is seen as strategic advantage in spiritual warfare.

On one hand it is for the Triune God's delight. On the other hand it is to form an army to fight along with Christ as His warrior bride.

On one hand it is escape from the terrible things which are to come. On the other hand it is a tactical move to drive Satan down from the heavenlies for good.

So there is this DUAL nature of purpose of a pre-tribulation rapture. And if you read Revelation 12 carefully you will see that without the rapture of the corporate man-child there is no catalyst for the "short time" to begin as Satan's last ditch attempt stop the kingdom of God from coming to earth.

You do not notice this? Look again.

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. (Rev. 12:11,12)

The man-child that is raptured to the throne of God causes the ministering angels to drive Satan down from his accusing activity before God. In Job we see that Satan has always had this ability to both roam the earth and appear before God's throne, blinded by his own pride, yet accusing God's saints on earth.

This activity will be stopped by a pre-tribulation rapture of some resurrected overcomers from past ages. And at their rapture there is no more room for the accuser of the brothers to have that function. He is henceforth limited to only roam the surface of the earth.

So we should seek that this man-child be raptured. And we who may be living just prior to the 1,260 days also should seek to join them in pre-great tribulation rapture. It is a matter of what Jesus Christ wants.

I consider your short sightedness and disbelief ignorance of what God wants. Keep reading and praying for understanding. Perhaps God will also reveal this to you.

Edited December 31, 2024 by Feedmysheep

Feedmysheep · December 31, 2024

FreeGrace,

<<<And you think this refers to a rapture? That would be reading INTO Scripture what isn't there. And 1 Cor 15:23 plainly SAYS that there will be a (singular) resurrection "when He comes" (Second Advent, per Heb 9:28) for ALL believers in history "those who belong to Him".>>>

That is not what I said. I said Hebrews 12:18 speaks of the heavenly Mount Zion. And that is what is meant in Revelation 14:1. Ie. God's administration the source of which is from heaven.

You said the Jerusalem Mount Zion is the "real" one. Actually the heavenly one is MORE real. The things on earth are often shadow of the heavenly things. (Heb. 8:5)

Edited December 31, 2024 by Feedmysheep

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