Cheap Grace and Easy Believeism.

[Luther]

42 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

 

3 hours ago,  Luther said:

You're not going to find a verse where the unsaved are elect, in other words.

And I proved there are, such as Judas, in John 6:70,71.  Your theology can't explain WHY Jesus was God's Chosen (elect) One.

The problem is all on your side.  I proved that Eph 1:4 says nothing about being chosen for salvation, but rather for service.  And the word "us" is defined in v.19 as "us who BELIEVE".  

I've already proved that this verse isn't about being chosen for salvation but for service.  I even color coded it for ease of understanding.  Why didn't you address that?

The word "chosen" here is UNRELATED to the Greek word used for election.  That word as a verb is "eklegomai" whereas the word in 2 Thess 2:13 is "haireomai".

Further, the verse is very clear about WHAT is being chosen.  The METHOD of how one is saved:  THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

There's that pesky word "belief", which smacks of choice of the believer.  Remember, the Bible says that men REFUSE to believe.  I gave you the verses.  That proves that unregenerate men CAN believe, because they chose to REFUSE to believe.

Can you honestly say that you can REFUSE to do something that you know you CANNOT do?  That would be idiotic.  

A quadriplegic (paralyzed both arms and legs) cannot REFUSE to get out of bed on their own power simply because they are UNABLE to do so.

Have you researched EVERY occurrence of the verb eklegomai, the noun ekloge and the adjective eklektos in the Bible?  I have.  And there are NO verses that say what the Calvinists say.  I hope that gives you pause.

Wow.  You really know how to ignore the glaring point here.  God chose believers to be holy and blameless.  Who God chooses is believers and He chooses them all to live lives of holiness.  Service.  But go ahead and ignore the obvious point all you want.

Of course not all.  He saves ONLY believers.

Here's another verse that haunts Calvinists:

1 Cor 1:21  ". . . God was pleased . . . to save those who believe".

No translation in the English had "God was pleased . . . to save the elect/chosen/etc".

Only for clarity, of course.  😉

Time is limited. I can only do one section at a time. 

You stated: "3 hours ago,  Luther said:

You're not going to find a verse where the unsaved are elect, in other words.

And I proved there are, such as Judas, in John 6:70,71.  Your theology can't explain WHY Jesus was God's Chosen (elect) One."

Look, the word Elect ( #1588) also means chosen. The majority of verses relate to those in Christ , Christ Himself ( 1Pe. 2:4,6, Lk. 23:35) or angels ( 1Ti. 5:21).

My statement stands correct. Besides Christ and the angels, the other  references pertain to those in Christ. 

The word " chosen" in John 6:70,71 is not " Elect" ( eklektos, #1588). It is  "Eklegomai", #1586, which means to  "select". 

Ok?

[FreeGrace]

21 minutes ago, Luther said:

I think it is supremely important to understand where saving faith comes from.

The faith that saves involves two aspects.

Object of faith:  The Lord Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God, full Deity, who died on a cross to pay the full sin debt of all of humanity.

Purpose or Goal of faith:  to be saved/delivered/rescued from the lake of fire.

So, to the question of where is 'saving faith' comes from, the salvation plan comes from God.  It is His plan.  

In order to be saved, man must understand the object of faith, and the purpose or WHY of faith.

The claim that God "gives the faith to be saved" is rather misleading, if not outright false.  That statement suggests or outright claims that in order to believe, God GIVES the ability to believe, or something like that.

The only problem with that is it isn't taught in Scripture.

In fact, Rom 10:10 states that "man believes from his heart (mind, intellect)".  That is where belief occurs.

God created humanity with a conscience with which to understand right and wrong, per Rom 2:14,15.  That gives man the ability to recognize right from wrong, allowing man to make choices.

 Man is fully ABLE to believe because the Bible says that man REFUSES to believe, and both are a choice that man makes.

[Michael37]

18 minutes ago, Luther said:

Michael,

I think it is supremely important to understand where saving faith comes from. I'm sure you would agree. Here is one of my "favorite" verses that addresses the relationship of faith and righteousness. I use the KJV, simply because the translators of the newer versions changed the preposition "of"  to "in", concerning mostly all verses that deal with "faith".

This is a major problem obviously. One little word can completely change ones understanding ( which I believe was intentional), and would complicate matters even more if that person does not investigate any  further. 

( Favorite verse):

Philippians 3:9  ( KJV):
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

Philippians 3:9   ( NIV):

and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in  Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith

The Righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Christ's shed blood. 

Romans 3:25-26

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

[26]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 God is no respecter of persons. So there lies the  big problem with one having  "righteous faith" while someone does not. Utter foolishness. 

Ok. What might your term "righteous faith" allude to?

I have this quote from a former member some may recall, Walter Goraj Jr., who famously referred to those "saved in the womb".

"It would be unfair because we all start out the same in this world, being born into sin ( with the exception of those saved in the womb). We cannot make the " right choice" because of the relationship ending ravages of sin."

[FreeGrace]

6 minutes ago, Luther said:

Time is limited. I can only do one section at a time. 

You stated: "3 hours ago,  Luther said:

You're not going to find a verse where the unsaved are elect, in other words.

And I proved there are, such as Judas, in John 6:70,71.  Your theology can't explain WHY Jesus was God's Chosen (elect) One."

Look, the word Elect ( #1588) also means chosen. The majority of verses relate to those in Christ , Christ Himself ( 1Pe. 2:4,6, Lk. 23:35) or angels ( 1Ti. 5:21).

My statement stands correct. Besides Christ and the angels, the other  references pertain to those in Christ.

I proved your statement to be wrong.  Why do you ignore John 6:70,71?  And the fact that at no time was everyone in Israel saved.  There has always been lots of rebellion.

6 minutes ago, Luther said:

The word " chosen" in John 6:70,71 is not " Elect" ( eklektos, #1588). It is  "Eklegomai", #1586, which means to  "select". 

Ok?

Not "ok".  You're just trying to confuse verbs and adjectives, that's all.  I've already covered all this, but it seems you don't read my posts.

noun - ekloge

verb - eklegomai

adjective - eklektos

All are related to the same concept, and are DIFFERENT than the verb in 2 Thess 2:13.

As I previously pointed out, I have researched EVERY occurrence of each of these Greek words in the NT, and NONE of them show the word linked to salvation.

[Luther]

2 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Ok. What might your term "righteous faith" allude to?

I have this quote from a former member some may recall, Walter Goraj Jr., who famously referred to those "saved in the womb".

"It would be unfair because we all start out the same in this world, being born into sin ( with the exception of those saved in the womb). We cannot make the " right choice" because of the relationship ending ravages of sin."

My information comes from the Word of God. Luke 1:39-41

And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

[40]And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.

[41]And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

It is my understanding that not only was Elisabeth filled with the Holy Spirit but John as well. I know of those who have from a very early age believed that they were saved, even without going through the motion of making a public confession. This makes sense knowing that God is always in control. 

[Luther]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I proved your statement to be wrong.  Why do you ignore John 6:70,71?  And the fact that at no time was everyone in Israel saved.  There has always been lots of rebellion.

Not "ok".  You're just trying to confuse verbs and adjectives, that's all.  I've already covered all this, but it seems you don't read my posts.

noun - ekloge

verb - eklegomai

adjective - eklektos

All are related to the same concept, and are DIFFERENT than the verb in 2 Thess 2:13.

As I previously pointed out, I have researched EVERY occurrence of each of these Greek words in the NT, and NONE of them show the word linked to salvation.

If you don't believe that God is sovereign when it comes to the miracle of eternal life, don't believe it. There is a massive amount of scripture that proves otherwise. The purpose here is to provide that information. So here we come down to going back and forth with Judas. 

Chosen,( #1586): Greek: ἐκλέγομαι
Transliteration: eklegomai
Pronunciation: ek-leg'-om-ahee
Definition: Middle voice from G1537 and G3004 (in its primary sense); to select: - make choice choose (out) chosen.
KJV Usage: choose (19x), choose out (1x), make choice (1x).

Judas.....selected, not elected. 

Elect,( #1588): Greek: ἐκλεκτός
Transliteration: eklektos
Pronunciation: ek-lek-tos'
Definition: From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen elect.
KJV Usage: elect (16x), chosen (7x).

God's people......( Emphasis " favorite", unlike Judas, the betrayer), chosen, Elect.

There is a reason why Judas was not #1588 Elected. Can you see it? 

[Luther]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The faith that saves involves two aspects.

Object of faith:  The Lord Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God, full Deity, who died on a cross to pay the full sin debt of all of humanity.

Purpose or Goal of faith:  to be saved/delivered/rescued from the lake of fire.

So, to the question of where is 'saving faith' comes from, the salvation plan comes from God.  It is His plan.  

In order to be saved, man must understand the object of faith, and the purpose or WHY of faith.

The claim that God "gives the faith to be saved" is rather misleading, if not outright false.  That statement suggests or outright claims that in order to believe, God GIVES the ability to believe, or something like that.

The only problem with that is it isn't taught in Scripture.

In fact, Rom 10:10 states that "man believes from his heart (mind, intellect)".  That is where belief occurs.

God created humanity with a conscience with which to understand right and wrong, per Rom 2:14,15.  That gives man the ability to recognize right from wrong, allowing man to make choices.

 Man is fully ABLE to believe because the Bible says that man REFUSES to believe, and both are a choice that man makes.

If I could start with the " object of faith":

"Object of faith: The Lord Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God, full Deity, who died on a cross to pay the full sin debt of all of humanity."

"to pay the full sin debt of all humanity". Let me repeat what you said. " to pay the full sin debt of all humanity." 

I am very sure that this statement can be found nowhere in scripture. 

That sounds to me like all of humanity is going to heaven, if everyone's sins are paid for. 

The faith Of Jesus Christ is what saves us:

Ephesians 3:12

In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Justified by the faith of Christ. 

[Michael37]

39 minutes ago, Luther said:

I am very sure that this statement can be found nowhere in scripture. 

From my notes for edification, illumination, and verification:

The sufficiency versus efficiency aspects of the blood of Christ cleansing from all sin.

The concepts of sufficiency and efficiency in the context of the blood of Christ have been significant in Christian theology. Here's a breakdown of both:

Sufficiency

Sufficiency refers to the complete adequacy and capability of Christ's sacrifice to cleanse and atone for all sins. This means that the blood of Christ is entirely sufficient to cover the sins of every person, regardless of the magnitude or quantity of those sins. Key points include:

• Unlimited Atonement: Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for the sins of the whole world. This concept is rooted in passages such as 1 John 2:2, which says, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

• Completeness: The work of Christ is complete and lacks nothing. There is no additional sacrifice or action needed to add to the atoning work of Christ. Hebrews 10:14 states, "For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."

Efficiency

Efficiency, on the other hand, focuses on the actual application of Christ's atoning work to the lives of individuals who believe in Him. It emphasizes the effective cleansing and sanctification of those who have faith in Christ. Key points include:

• Selective Application: While Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all, it is efficient (or effectively applied) only to those who accept Him as their Lord and Savior. John 3:16 speaks to this, "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

• Transformative Power: The efficient aspect of Christ's blood is seen in the transformation and sanctification of believers. It effectively changes their hearts and lives, purifying them from sin. 1 Peter 1:18-19 underscores this by saying, "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed... but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect."

In summary, the sufficiency of Christ's blood covers all potential sin, while its efficiency is realized in the lives of those who embrace and live by faith in Him.

[Luther]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

From my notes for edification, illumination, and verification:

The sufficiency versus efficiency aspects of the blood of Christ cleansing from all sin.

The concepts of sufficiency and efficiency in the context of the blood of Christ have been significant in Christian theology. Here's a breakdown of both:

Sufficiency

Sufficiency refers to the complete adequacy and capability of Christ's sacrifice to cleanse and atone for all sins. This means that the blood of Christ is entirely sufficient to cover the sins of every person, regardless of the magnitude or quantity of those sins. Key points include:

• Unlimited Atonement: Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for the sins of the whole world. This concept is rooted in passages such as 1 John 2:2, which says, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

• Completeness: The work of Christ is complete and lacks nothing. There is no additional sacrifice or action needed to add to the atoning work of Christ. Hebrews 10:14 states, "For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."

Efficiency

Efficiency, on the other hand, focuses on the actual application of Christ's atoning work to the lives of individuals who believe in Him. It emphasizes the effective cleansing and sanctification of those who have faith in Christ. Key points include:

• Selective Application: While Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all, it is efficient (or effectively applied) only to those who accept Him as their Lord and Savior. John 3:16 speaks to this, "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

• Transformative Power: The efficient aspect of Christ's blood is seen in the transformation and sanctification of believers. It effectively changes their hearts and lives, purifying them from sin. 1 Peter 1:18-19 underscores this by saying, "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed... but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect."

In summary, the sufficiency of Christ's blood covers all potential sin, while its efficiency is realized in the lives of those who embrace and live by faith in Him.

I'll look at this tomorrow, thank you. 

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, Luther said:

FreeGrace said:

I proved your statement to be wrong.  Why do you ignore John 6:70,71?  And the fact that at no time was everyone in Israel saved.  There has always been lots of rebellion.

Not "ok".  You're just trying to confuse verbs and adjectives, that's all.  I've already covered all this, but it seems you don't read my posts.

If you don't believe that God is sovereign when it comes to the miracle of eternal life, don't believe it.

Huh??  Why are you trying to change the subject?  Can't answer my evidence, huh.

As to the miracle of eternal life, of course it is.  And I never said otherwise, so why you even bring up this distraction is bizarre.

11 hours ago, Luther said:

There is a massive amount of scripture that proves otherwise. The purpose here is to provide that information.

I've already done that.  And you haven't answered my question:  have you researched EVERY occurrence of all the noun, verb and adjective that relate to election?  I seriously doubt it, from what you do post.

11 hours ago, Luther said:

So here we come down to going back and forth with Judas. 

There is no back and forth.  It's all straight forward.  Jesus elected Judas to be the betrayer.  Period.  And he wasn't saved.  Period.

11 hours ago, Luther said:

Judas.....selected, not elected. 

Just more playing around, are you?  They are synonymous.  Get real.

11 hours ago, Luther said:

Elect,( #1588): Greek: ἐκλεκτός
Transliteration: eklektos
Pronunciation: ek-lek-tos'
Definition: From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen elect.
KJV Usage: elect (16x), chosen (7x).

God's people......( Emphasis " favorite", unlike Judas, the betrayer), chosen, Elect.

There is a reason why Judas was not #1588 Elected. Can you see it? 

He was chosen.  Get over it.  You have no point.  You're just playing word games.