1 Cor. 15:23 and Selective Resurrection

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

FreeGrace said:

All of these 5 points are just opinions.  He cannot prove any of his claims from Scripture.  His failure to recognize the "man-child" as THE God-man is quite unfortunate, and significantly reduces his credibility on all points.

You were already corrected  on this criticism.

Oh, do you mean when you gave your opinion?

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

What Christ as the Head does is also what Christ dispensed into His overcomers do WITH Him. 

Christ -   And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod; and He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. (Rev.19:15) 

The overcomers -  And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father; (Rev. 2:26,27) 

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12:5)

Rev 12:5 refutes your opinions.  The "man-child+ wil rule the nations with an iron scepter.  That is none other than the King, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Not some corporate something or other that you opine.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

What is not seen by you is that transfiguration of the body is influenced by transformation of the soul.

Rather, what is not seen by you are any verses that support your claim (opinion).  And I've been asking and asking.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

Your naive assumptiom is that the quality of every Christian's walk has nothing to do with the quality of their reward in the millennial kingdom, including the glory they bare in their body.

This is blatantly untrue.  Absolutely the quality of the believer's walk has EVERYTHING to do with the quality/quantity of their eternal reward.  I cannot imagine where you thought I believe what you claim here as my view or "assumption".  You aren't even close to understanding my beliefs, even though I've been very clear about them.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

 There is the overcoming victorious sister or brother. There is the lukewarm saint. There is the repentant backslider. There is the unrepentant backslider. There is the severely immature fleshly Christian.  ALL will be resurrection.

So far, so good.  👍

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

ALL will not have sifficient transformation in the soul.

Nope.  Please quote any verse that supports (says) what you say.  

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

And this will effect the resurrection and transfiguration of the body.

The resurrection IS the transfiguration of the body.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

 While we do not have all the details we have enough to know all those "who are Christ's at His coming" receive the same position of honor in the 1,000 year kingdom.

We have NO such details.  Rather, we have this, regarding what will happen at His coming:  2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

The "position of honor" will vary widely among believers.  Some won't even have a "position of honor".  

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

Why did the Apostle Paul seek to attain an outstanding resurrection? Your logic means there was no need for him to seek to attain such because all who are Christ's at His coming are resurrected exactly with the same glory.

Just another opinion that is wrong about what I believe.  Which I'm correcting as I wade through your post.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

  . . . that I may gain Christ . . . 

If perhaps I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead.

Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I pursue, if even I may lay hold of that for which I also have been laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

Brothers, I do not account of myself to have laid hold; but one thing I do: Forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before,

I pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called me upward. (See Phil. 3:8-14) 

There will absolutely a huge difference between reward of believers at the Bema.

Please adjust your viewpoint about what I believe before you post another highly inaccurate post.

[Feedmysheep]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Oh, do you mean when you gave your opinion?

Rev 12:5 refutes your opinions.  The "man-child+ wil rule the nations with an iron scepter.  That is none other than the King, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Not some corporate something or other that you opine.

Oh PLEASE. No more of "Me NO opinions. You opinions!" 

There are such things as better interpretations than inferior ones. 

King Jesus, if you would check, is called "King of kings".  The valid opinion is that the King, the Lord Jesus, will have co-reigning over the nations with Him His kings.

 The man-child are the most obedient of this "kings".  Its in your Bible.

And from Jesus Christ, the faithful Witness, the Firstborn of the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has released us from our sins by His blood (Rev. 1:5) 

You were slain and have purchased for God by Your blood men out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth. (Rev. 5:9b,10)

Now these verses must not refer general political leaders and kings. Ofcourse Christ is over all rulers.  But these are kings consecrated to His divine government. 

To reign with Christ under certain conditions of His choosing is the promise of the New Testament. 

Faithful is the word: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;If we endure, we will also reign with Him; (2 Tim. 2:11,12a)

Did you see that?  IF . . . we endure . . . we will also reign with Him. 

The condition of endurance and suffering with Christ has been fulfilled by those overcomers who constitute the man-child.

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death. (Rev.12:11)

If these do not match those who are to be granted to co-reign who better matches the condition. You lose the case FeeGrace. 

There is no OTHER referents in Revelation 12 to whom the discription of "they overcame" could apply. 

they overcame . . . the word of their testimony . . . loved not their soul-life. 

1.)   The good angels following Michael prevail. But not by the blood of the Lamb. The good angels never sinned and need no redemption. Neither did the good angels die.

2.)  The fleeing corporate woman with "the rest of her seed" are left upon the earth that some among them may also learn to overcome through the GT.

And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man-child. (v.13)

And to the woman there were given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time from the face of the serpent. (v.14) 

 And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, (Rev.12:17a)

3.) Obviously "they,their,them" could not refer to the evil angels.

Yea, it is an opinion that the "our  brothers" (v.10)  who are the THEY, THEM, THEIR refers to the man-child who is ordained to shepherd the nations as Christ is so ordained according to ( 2 Tim. 2:11,12; Rev. 1:5; 5:9,10;)

You don't have a better opinion do you? So accept that the man-child is a collective of overcoming believers who died and are resurrected before the 1,260 days.

These early overcomers  will be joined by some late overcomers who passed through the 3.5 year great tribulation. These ones are covered in chapter 15 as those resurrected ones standing upon the sea of glass mixed with fire. 

  And I saw as it were a glassy sea mingled with fire and those who come away victorious from the beast and from his image and from the number of his name standing on the glassy sea, having harps of God.

And they sing the song of Moses, the slave of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and wonderful are Your works, Lord God the Almighty! Righteous and true are Your ways, O King of the nations!

Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; for all the nations will come and worship before You, for Your righteous judgments have been manifested. (Rev. 15:2-4)

 

Edited January 2 by Feedmysheep

[Feedmysheep]

<<<<There will absolutely a huge difference between reward of believers at the Bema.>>>>

Try telling me something that I don't already know about.

Incidently, some are not rewarded at all but are temporarly to "suffer loss".  You didn't notice that? 

Explain who the plural pronouns refer to in Revelation ch. 12.

If these do not refer to the man-child, I await to see WHO you teach these overcomers refers TO. 

If you said so already, I haven't noticed it. 

Edited January 2 by Feedmysheep

[Feedmysheep]

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

<<<<This is blatantly untrue.  Absolutely the quality of the believer's walk has EVERYTHING to do with the quality/quantity of their eternal reward. >>>

No it doesn't. It has to do with there reward during the age before the eternal age, the millennial kingdom age. 

I don't think you read why I referred to a naive attitude about this, which you said was "blantantly untrue". 

By the time of the end of the millennial kingdom there will be no immaturity left in any of God's sons. Those arrived at maturity early will be joined by those who were disciplined in the 1,000 years.

All His chidren have become overcomers in that age in which only  righteousness dwells. (2 Pet. 3:12,13)

Expecting and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved, and the elements, burning with intense heat, are to be melted away?

But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

All sons of God have matured into the corporate fully built  New Jerusalem.

He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me. (Rev. 21:7) 

Whereas at the end of the church age some defeated believers still require discipline during the millennial kingdom ALL have become matured by the time of its end. And thier saturation with the Spirit of Christ is thorough.

 You called "saturation" my favorite word. It is not necessarily my favorite word to express sanctification.

But it is useful and you have given no reason why one should refain from using it. Perhaps you interpret my refusal to shrink from its usage as indication of my favorite. 

Permeation,saturation, mingling, organic union, blending, and incorporation are all appropriate expressions indicating the climax of the Triune God dispensing His life into human beings. 

 

Edited January 3 by Feedmysheep

[Feedmysheep]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

<<<Rev 12:5 refutes your opinions.  The "man-child+ wil rule the nations with an iron scepter.  That is none other than the King, the Lord Jesus Christ.>>>

That opinion of your does not refute the understanding that the man-child is Christ duplicated in a collective. 

Far from it. It VINDICATES His full salvation. It testifies that we can not merely be born again but we can be built together into a transformed fighting unit expressing Christ's work in His redeemed.

  I am still waiting for you to propose a more logical solution to who the plural pronouns "THEY, THEM, THEIR" with "our brothers" Rev 12:5 refers to in your opinions.

If you have nothing you have not refuted that the "man-child" as a corporate entity who will co-rule the nations with an iron scepter.  They are the kings who make those over whom Christ is "King of kings." 

If you have no better explanation then you have not refuted that the nation ruling corporate co-reigning man-child are a resurrected collective.  

 

Edited January 2 by Feedmysheep

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Oh PLEASE. No more of "Me NO opinions. You opinions!" 

I only do it when it FITS.

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

There are such things as better interpretations than inferior ones.

Except I don't have to "interpret" since I have verses that are straightforward and in plain language.  What do you have?  Rev 14, which is anything plain language.  It's all symbolic, metaphors and figures of speech.

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

King Jesus, if you would check, is called "King of kings".  The valid opinion is that the King, the Lord Jesus, will have co-reigning over the nations with Him His kings.

Thanks for making my point.  He rules the nations.  Don't forget it.  Yes, He will have helpers, but He is THE king.

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

 The man-child are the most obedient of this "kings".  Its in your Bible.

No it's not.  You are only "reading it into" your Bible.

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

And from Jesus Christ, the faithful Witness, the Firstborn of the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has released us from our sins by His blood (Rev. 1:5)

So now you flip way back to ch 1 in your attempt to salvage your pot.  To be "Ruler of the kings of the earth" easily means He will rule over all the nations, who will have their own kings.

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

 You were slain and have purchased for God by Your blood men out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth. (Rev. 5:9b,10)

Now these verses must not refer general political leaders and kings. Ofcourse Christ is over all rulers.  But these are kings consecrated to His divine government.

Yes, thank you for making my points.

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

 To reign with Christ under certain conditions of His choosing is the promise of the New Testament.

Faithful is the word: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;If we endure, we will also reign with Him; (2 Tim. 2:11,12a)

Did you see that?  IF . . . we endure . . . we will also reign with Him.

Sure do.  Paul taught about eternal rewards through endurance.

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

 The condition of endurance and suffering with Christ has been fulfilled by those overcomers who constitute the man-child.

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death. (Rev.12:11)

There is NO "corporate" man-child.  

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

If these do not match those who are to be granted to co-reign who better matches the condition. You lose the case FeeGrace.

Hardly.  You haven't and can't prove your claim (case) about this so-called "corporate" man-child.  

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

There is no OTHER referents in Revelation 12 to whom the discription of "they overcame" could apply.

Of course it's about faithful believers.  But they aren't called a "man-child".

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

they overcame . . . the word of their testimony . . . loved not their soul-life. 

1.)   The good angels following Michael prevail. But not by the blood of the Lamb. The good angels never sinned and need no redemption. Neither did the good angels die.

2.)  The fleeing corporate woman with "the rest of her seed" are left upon the earth that some among them may also learn to overcome through the GT.

So now we have a "corporate" woman as well as a "corporate man-child".  Nope.

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man-child. (v.13)

If you can't see the obvious reference to Israel producing the Messiah, I think there's not much hope for you to understand Scripture.

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

And to the woman there were given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time from the face of the serpent. (v.14) 

 And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, (Rev.12:17a)

This is very figurative language and anyone can claim it means whatever they NEED it to mean to support their own "private interpretation".

I'm not that interested in verses so full of figurative language, metaphors, etc.

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Yea, it is an opinion that the "our  brothers" (v.10)  who are the THEY, THEM, THEIR refers to the man-child who is ordained to shepherd the nations as Christ is so ordained according to ( 2 Tim. 2:11,12; Rev. 1:5; 5:9,10;)

Kinda like being all over the map here.  Pulling verses from a wide variety of verses.  

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

You don't have a better opinion do you?

I don't even have an opinion.  I KNOW what the plain language of Scripture SAYS and I believe that.  

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

So accept that the man-child is a collective of overcoming believers who died and are resurrected before the 1,260 days.

Never.  I KNOW what 1 Cor 15:23, Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 SAY.  One singular resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved.  Period.  Your opinion violates all these verses.

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

  And I saw as it were a glassy sea mingled with fire and those who come away victorious from the beast and from his image and from the number of his name standing on the glassy sea, having harps of God.

And they sing the song of Moses, the slave of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and wonderful are Your works, Lord God the Almighty! Righteous and true are Your ways, O King of the nations!

Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; for all the nations will come and worship before You, for Your righteous judgments have been manifested. (Rev. 15:2-4)

You haven't proven any of these are your so-called "corporate man-child".

I'm fully aware of faithful believers who will be richly rewarded.  But there is no "early rapture" to heaven for anyone.  Or the Bible would have plainly made that clear, and you have no clear verses.

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<<There will absolutely a huge difference between reward of believers at the Bema.>>>>

Try telling me something that I don't already know about.

I'm beginning to wonder what you really do know about.  Some what you claim is pretty far out.  So the only way to determine what you know is to state some facts.

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Incidently, some are not rewarded at all but are temporarly to "suffer loss".  You didn't notice that?

Excuse me?  What's this about "temporarily suffering loss"?  Please use Scripture when claiming what you think Scripture says.

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

 Explain who the plural pronouns refer to in Revelation ch. 12.

So I'm supposed to guess about some specific verses you are thinking about, and give you my opinion?  I have no idea what you are even talking about.  We strongly disagree about the "woman" "man-child" are, so why should I bother when we're not even in the same book, much less the same page?

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

If these do not refer to the man-child, I await to see WHO you teach these overcomers refers TO.

So you are quite willing to have some plural pronouns refer to "the man-child", which is a singular term.  We just keep moving farther and farther apart.

3 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

 If you said so already, I haven't noticed it. 

Actually reading my posts would help a lot.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<<This is blatantly untrue.  Absolutely the quality of the believer's walk has EVERYTHING to do with the quality/quantity of their eternal reward. >>>

No it doesn't. It has to do with there reward during the age before the eternal age, the millennial kingdom age.

Huh?  Your statement doesn't make sense.  What is this "age" that is before the eternal age?  Don't you know that during the Millennial reign of Christ, ALL believers will have their resurrection bodies, which are ETERNAL.  

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

By the time of the end of the millennial kingdom there will be no immaturity left in any of God's sons.

I'll do you one better.  By the resurrection event at the return of Christ, there will be NO immaturity in any of God's children.  All will be in their resurrection bodies, glorified and immortal.  Why do you think that glorified believers will continue to grow spiritually when they aren't in their corrupt physical bodies any more?

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Those arrived at maturity early will be joined by those who were disciplined in the 1,000 years.

More made up stuff.  Where do you get resurrected believers during the Millennial reign being "disciplined"??

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

All His chidren have become overcomers in that age in which only  righteousness dwells. (2 Pet. 3:12,13)

And now you contradict yourself.

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

All sons of God have matured into the corporate fully built  New Jerusalem.

What does this mean?  At the resurrection, when all believers receive their glorified immortal bodies, just like Jesus'.  At that time, no one will continue to "mature".  They will have reached unto "the image of His Son".  Rom 8:29

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me. (Rev. 21:7)

A promise of rich reward to faithful believers during their life on earth.

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

 Whereas at the end of the church age some defeated believers still require discipline during the millennial kingdom ALL have become matured by the time of its end.

I reject that opinion outright.  And you have zero evidence for your guesswork.  At the Second Advent, ALL believers receive their glorified immortal bodies and won't need to be disciplined.  That ends at the Bema, which is when Christ returns to earth.  So during the Millennium, ALL believers will either reign with Christ or serve Him.

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

 You called "saturation" my favorite word. It is not necessarily my favorite word to express sanctification.

Because it is not a biblical word, it's more liable to confuse than instruct.

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

But it is useful and you have given no reason why one should refain from using it.

Yes I have.  But you don't read my posts, as you indicated above.  The word is not in the Bible, like the word "sanctification" or "spiritual growth" or "spiritual maturity" are.  And so the use of it will only confuse lots of people.

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Permeation,saturation, mingling, organic union, blending, and incorporation are all appropriate expressions indicating the climax of the Triune God dispensing His life into human beings. 

Yeah, there you go!  Confuse, obfuscate, and smokescreen.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<Rev 12:5 refutes your opinions.  The "man-child+ wil rule the nations with an iron scepter.  That is none other than the King, the Lord Jesus Christ.>>>

That opinion of your does not refute the understanding that the man-child is Christ duplicated in a collective.

Excepe for one small teeny tiny thing.  You have NO proof or evidence of your opinion.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

  I am still waiting for you to propose a more logical solution to who the plural pronouns "THEY, THEM, THEIR" with "our brothers" Rev 12:5 refers to in your opinions.

Faithful believers, of course.  But NOT some "corporate man-child".

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

If you have nothing you have not refuted that the "man-child" as a corporate entity who will co-rule the nations with an iron scepter.  They are the kings who make those over whom Christ is "King of kings." 

If you have no better explanation then you have not refuted that the nation ruling corporate co-reigning man-child are a resurrected collective.  

Since you have no evidence or proof of what you claim, I'm not interested in changing my opinion, which MORE ACCURATELY fits Jesus Christ as the "man-child".

You weren't in John's mind when he wrote Revelation.  So you don't have 'inside information' on what he wrote about.  Neither was I.

So I don't spend time in texts that are full of metaphors, figures of speech, etc.  We have no idea what they refer to.  And it doesn't matter.  

We do have enough very clear verses to fully understand the order of things during end times.