1 Cor. 15:23 and Selective Resurrection

[Feedmysheep]

14 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

 

 <<<<I only do it when it FITS.>>>

I agree. Take time and pray about it. And pray also for me.

  <<<Except I don't have to "interpret" since I have verses that are straightforward and in plain language.  What do you have?  Rev 14, which is anything plain language.  It's all symbolic, metaphors and figures of speech.>>>

I have not shown you in the signs in Revelation that cannot be verified with plain teaching. But you know "a picture is worth a thousand words" as some say.

 I don't think it is fair for you to say you were not shown plain teaching. Now I receive that the plain teaching you cannot agree with. 

By the way. I cannot respond to every single paragraph in your typical posts. It requires more time then I can give. Lots of unaddressed things you raised I simply did not get a chance to speak to on both threads Selectivee Rapture / Selective Resurrection. 

If you are deliberately trying to just swamp me with things to answer, its a good tactic. But I hope that's not the case.

<<<Thanks for making my point.  He rules the nations.  Don't forget it.  Yes, He will have helpers, but He is THE king.>>>

  I made YOUR point. And I also made MY point. Jesus the King of kings who is ordained to shepherd the nations is ACCOMPANIED by some overcoming victors who co-reign with Him. Surely, you didn't miss that. (Rev. 19:15,16; Rev. 2: 2:27)

Now if you don't CARE about what Jesus cares about, that's your shortage.  How much plainer can it be? " . . he will shepherd [the nations] . . . with an iron rod . . .as I also have received from My Father"

And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;

And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father; (Rev. 2:26,27)

Those overcomers to join Christ shepherding the nations certainly include explicitly these overcomers in Rev. 12 called symbolically man-child.

Note: Now the sign of the firsfruits in Rev. 14 has a different purpose though it is also a pre-great tribulation rapture. There what is shown is their rapture is for the Son and the Father's pleasure. The resurrection / rapture of the man-child is show the purpose of spiritual warfare and givernment.

You see FreeGrace, different signs in Revelation are often dedicated to distinct themes. Spiritual warfare and divine administration are important to God. But ALSO His good pleasure in love is important.

 <<<So now you flip way back to ch 1 in your attempt to salvage your pot.  To be "Ruler of the kings of the earth" easily means He will rule over all the nations, who will have their own kings.>>>

  I believe that I included that ALL kings in history, Christ is King of kings over. Didn't I?  However it is the consecrated saints rewarded to reign with Christ which are the greater glory to God.  So for this reason when it says He has made kings and priest to reign on the earth, it is THESE cooperative sons of God who meant. Don't you think so?   

And they sing a new song, saying: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, for You were slain and have purchased for God by Your blood men out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

And have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth. (Rev. 5:9,10)

Surely you don't think Julius Ceasar, Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, or some other worldly evil king  like adminstrator in history are singing this new song because they are Christ;s kings and priests.

And the worldly kings up to the time of the millennial kingdom are wanting Christ to leave the world alone!   They would not fit the description of the kings of Revelation 5:9,10.

Why are the nations in an uproar, / And why do the peoples contemplate a vain thing?

The kings of the earth take their stand, / And the rulers sit in counsel together, / Against Jehovah and against His Anointed:

Let us break apart Their bonds / And cast Their ropes away from us. (Psalm 2:1-3)

But THESE people would really qualify to be kings with whom Christ rejoices to be King of kings. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.

 These are the constitients of the man-child who is to shepherd the nations as co-kings with Christ.   And some others who were not martyred will also reign. But that is another discussion. 

<<<Sure do.  Paul taught about eternal rewards through endurance.>>>

 I well should open up another thread dealing with eternal rewards verses dispensational rewards.   The purpose of the millennial kingdom is for dispensational rewards of 1,000 years. But the purpose of the blessings of the eternal age following that is the common portion of ALL His sons. 

 That's another discussion thread imo. 

 <<<<There is NO "corporate" man-child.  >>>

  You say that with ample aplum and dogmatism. But I have not yet seen your alternative explanation for who the "THEY,THEM,THIER, BROTHERS" as overcomers could refer to in Rev. 12 beside the man-child. 

 I am keeping an eye out for your alternative interpretation.

 Oh, I recall you saying you read the NT so many times in 20 years. Great! We can praise the Lord for such hunger. 

<<<Hardly.  You haven't and can't prove your claim (case) about this so-called "corporate" man-child.  >>>

  No one is so blind as the person who will not see. Do you not WISH that Christ would be able to fulfill His word? 

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. (Matt. 5:5)

Do you not CARE that Jesus has some He can reward to inherit the planet because of thier meekness in Him? Don't you see that this is a glory to Jesus Christ? 

 "Humph! There is no corporate stronger man-child within the total body of God's people!" you say in essence. 

  But the plain teaching of Jesus is that among at first His disciples, they will be on thrones in the restoration of the millennial kingdom. 

 And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the restoration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19:28) 

You just need to be enlarged to SEE what the SIGN of the man-child could point to. And are these twelve disciples the only ones to be upon thrones? No they are not. But . . . Faithful is the word: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;2Ti If we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us; (2 Tim. 2:11,12) 

 You see today by His grace we are to reign over our sins, reign over our selves, and reign over the worldly appetites, and many fallen characteristics of the old Adam nature.  But tomorrow in the millennial kingdom if we have been well trained we will reign over a larger sphere to assist Christ to establish His global kingdom.

  The Bible's plain teaching, FreeGrace, is that the obedient today in Christ are tasting the powers of the coming age.     

 . . . tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit  And have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, (Heb. 6:4b,5)

 Remember that the Lord said faithfulness in least will lead to responsibility over the greater things. 

His master said to him, Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful over a few things; I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master. (Matt. 25:23) 

For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he shall abound; but from him who does not have, even that which he has shall be taken away from him. (v.29)

Do not say I have not shown you plain teaching. The sign of the stronger man-child taken out of the weaker woman of universal light represents to so rewarded overcomers. Specifically, these ones were martyred BEFORE the great tribulation in both the NT and OT times.

 Thus even those before the church age who overcame in faith and enduerance will be a part of these co-reigning "THEM" who overcame.

  How about the plain teaching that some overcomers will sit with Christ on His throne as He overcame and sat on His Father's throne?    

He who overcomes, to him I will give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father on His throne. (Rev. 3:21) 

This promise, like all the promises to the churches in Revelation 2,3 are meant to be heard by ALL the believers.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (v.22) 

<<<So now we have a "corporate" woman as well as a "corporate man-child".  Nope.>>>

  You can't be serious.  You cannot see that the woman there is a collective? 

  The persecution of her is really the persecution of the rest of her children. The persecution of her is the persecution of the rest of her seed. And it is as clear as crystal that the plural pronoun "them" and "saints" is used in relation to the persecuted WOMAN. 

And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. (Rev. 12:17)

And permission was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them; (Rev. 13:7)

  If anyone is for captivity, into captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he is to be killed. Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints. (Rev. 13:10)

You see? The saints, the seed, the children, them all refer to the sign of the woman fleeing persecution. God will nourish the body of believers on earth passing through the GT. Yet SOME will be martyred. 

<<<If you can't see the obvious reference to Israel producing the Messiah, I think there's not much hope for you to understand Scripture.>>>

 You are saying perhaps that the woman of universal light who brings forth the man-child in limited to Israel.  But overcomers came out of not just Israel. Before Abraham and Israel we have overcomers like Abel who loved God unto his DEATH at the hands of Cain. 

 So I think the better interpretation is that she includes the believers of Israel but also the believers PRE- Abraham who died for their enduring dedication to God. 

  "they loved not their soul-life even unto death" should include all faithful martyrs of the OT and NT times. That is why the LIGHT of the sun, moon, and stars represent the three great dispensatoins - the age of grace, the age of the law, and the age pre-law of the patriarchs. 

   And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

    Three major dispensations are reprented by the three heavenly lights.

    From Adam to Moses (Age #1)- But death reigned from Adam until Moses,  (Rom. 5:14a) 

     From Moses to the fist coming of Christ (Age #2)- For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:17)

     From Christ's 1rst coming to His 2nd coming (Age #3) - So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time to those who eagerly await Him, apart from sin, unto salvation. (Heb. 9:28)

 The three light sources represent God's people in these three ages. And the man-child is derived from the overcomers from these three ages who died for God rather than love their own soul-life.

Why do don't see the glory of God in this is strange. 

  <<<This is very figurative language and anyone can claim it means whatever they NEED it to mean to support their own "private interpretation".>>>

 There can be private unbelief as well. 

  Your alternative explanation seems at this point to be that the woman of universal light is Israel and the child is Jesus. 

    When Jesus was born was He immediately caught up to the throne of God in Heaven?  His ascension to Heaven was some thirty three years and a half after He was delivered from His mother Mary, an Israelite. 

  It is easy to see Jesus there because He is the PRIME prototype Overcomer of all history.  All others who overcome through God follow Christ the standard model and the Head of the total body of saints. So I concur that we HAVE to  notice Christ as the Original Overcomer. 

   Going back to First Corinthians 15.  Christ came not only to shed His redeeming blood. He came in resurrection to dispense HIMSELF - HIMSELF as the divine life giving Spirit into His people. 

  "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) 

 Christ rose from the dead to be the Head of a new humanity. He is the second manm. He is the last Adam to impart His overcoming life into all whom He has redeemed. He came to duplicate His overcoming by being the God's life dispensing Spirit.

   And SOME receiving such dispensing love not their previous Godless lives to the ultimate point of their martyrdom. 

 Why you do not see this man-child as a triumphant vindication of Christ as the life giving Spirit causing others to overcome is indeed perculiar.  

 So there is "private" shortsightedness as well. 

<<<Kinda like being all over the map here.  Pulling verses from a wide variety of verses.  >>>

   Do you deny that God's revelation is not always systematized in one place in the Bible?  You too pull from here and from there some things.

   This is another case of "I don't do it. But YOU do it."   I am not doing anything that you have not done on occasion. 

    The Lord's revelation, He told us would be "here a little, there a little."  (Isa. 28:10-16)   We have to learn to cut straight the word of God.  All the truths are not always systemnatically located in one place like a computer flowchart.

     Patience, time, and experience are needed to illuminate the wisdom in the Bible. And I did not see all this I explain by myself.  We are able to stand upon the shoulders of others who long explored these things. 

       I learned very much of this. But once you are provided some important KEY the puzzles fall into place quite well. 

        The KEY to the Bible is God dispensing what He is in Christ as the life giving Spirit into man. The life giving Spirit is the Christ giving Spirit. He is the God's life giving Spirit. He is the divine nature giving Person that we may be overcomers through partaking of God's implanted divine nature.      

Seeing that His divine power has granted to us all things which relate to life and godliness, through the full knowledge of Him who has called us by His own glory and virtue,

Through which He has granted to us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption which is in the world by lust. (2 Pet. 1:2,3) 

Yes, we gather from here and from there and from there to put the whole picture together of God's economy. You do so too. 

<<<I don't even have an opinion.  I KNOW what the plain language of Scripture SAYS and I believe that.  >>>

I encourage you to be enlarged in your understanding. Haven't your grown from the first time you read the Bible?  

 No harm is done to any tenet of your faith by intepreting the man-child as the corporate THEM, THEY, THIER, brothers who are resurrected and rapture just before the GT.  

You are just not seeing enough. I do not see something extra. 

<<<I'm fully aware of faithful believers who will be richly rewarded.  But there is no "early rapture" to heaven for anyone.  Or the Bible would have plainly made that clear, and you have no clear verses.>>>

it should be CLEAR to you, if you are not too indoctrinated, to see that the CAUSE of the great tribulation is because the catching up of the overcomers results in Satan being limited. By successive stages Satan has been pushed back, pushed down, and restricted more and more. 

 The ones who are to rejoice in Heaven are the ones who were raptured there. And the ones who are warned of coming WOE are all those left on earth, including the msjority of saints who God will nourish for 1,260 days.     (Rev. 12:11,12)

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time.

The ones just captured up to the throne in verse 5 are the overcomers for whom the kingdom has come within them. Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. 

 The great majority of the weaker woman left on earth is braced for the short time the expelled Satan has left to persecute the rest of God's saints. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time.     

     

[FreeGrace]

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 <<<<I only do it when it FITS.>>>

I agree. Take time and pray about it. And pray also for me.

I always pray for understanding.  And I'll add you to my list.  👍

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

  <<<Except I don't have to "interpret" since I have verses that are straightforward and in plain language.  What do you have?  Rev 14, which is anything plain language.  It's all symbolic, metaphors and figures of speech.>>>

I have not shown you in the signs in Revelation that cannot be verified with plain teaching. But you know "a picture is worth a thousand words" as some say.

Where does this "plain teaching" come from?  If Scripture cannot use plain words, why trust any other source?

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 I don't think it is fair for you to say you were not shown plain teaching. Now I receive that the plain teaching you cannot agree with. 

What do you mean that "now you receive that the plain teaching that I cannot agree with".  From whom do you "receive" this "plain teaching"?

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

By the way. I cannot respond to every single paragraph in your typical posts. It requires more time then I can give.

All of my posts are simply responses to your posts.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

If you are deliberately trying to just swamp me with things to answer, its a good tactic. But I hope that's not the case.

No, that is not the case.  I don't use tricks or tactics.  I simply respond to comments.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<Thanks for making my point.  He rules the nations.  Don't forget it.  Yes, He will have helpers, but He is THE king.>>>

  I made YOUR point. And I also made MY point. Jesus the King of kings who is ordained to shepherd the nations is ACCOMPANIED by some overcoming victors who co-reign with Him. Surely, you didn't miss that. (Rev. 19:15,16; Rev. 2: 2:27)

I never disagreed with 2 Tim 2:12.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Now if you don't CARE about what Jesus cares about, that's your shortage.  How much plainer can it be? " . . he will shepherd [the nations] . . . with an iron rod . . .as I also have received from My Father"

Poor conclusion.  Of course I care about what Jesus cares about.  And that is TRUTH.  Have you really thought about the words "rules the nations with an iron rod"?  Doesn't sound much like gentleness and kindness.  More like very strict rules/etc.

And there is a very clear reason.  When the King returns and resurrects all believers, the only mortals left from the Trib will be unbelievers.  And not just every day average unbelievers.  But the hardcore unbelievers who REFUSED to repent (Rev 16:9,11) during the pouring out of God's wrath.  And all of them have taken the mark of the beast, which shows that their negative volition will not change.  

iow, The King will be ruling over an extremely hostile and angry mob.  Every one of them.

And this explains WHY there will be a world wide rebellion at the end of the Millennium.  So God sends fire from heaven and FRIES the whole lot of them.  Rev 20.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;

And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father; (Rev. 2:26,27)

Right!  There it is:  "as pottery are broken in pieces".  This ain't no picnic during the Millennium.  Growing up, I had a pretty pleasant and peaceful notion of life during the Millennium.  Having finally read the Bible, I have repented of those notions.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Those overcomers to join Christ shepherding the nations certainly include explicitly these overcomers in Rev. 12 called symbolically man-child.

Well, there's where we disagree.  For me, the "man-child" is the God-man.  I will not repent of that.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Note: Now the sign of the firsfruits in Rev. 14 has a different purpose though it is also a pre-great tribulation rapture.

Without plain language that supports this claim, and plus the FACT of the 4 verses that specifically speak of resurrection in the singular, I do not see any kind of rapture in Rev 14.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

There what is shown is their rapture is for the Son and the Father's pleasure. The resurrection / rapture of the man-child is show the purpose of spiritual warfare and givernment.

I see this as an opinion.  No evidence from Scripture.  And refuting Scripture as well.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

You see FreeGrace, different signs in Revelation are often dedicated to distinct themes. Spiritual warfare and divine administration are important to God. But ALSO His good pleasure in love is important.

Of course they are.  But the very clear verses that refute any notion of multiple resurrections or raptures to heaven prove that your claims are untrue.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 <<<So now you flip way back to ch 1 in your attempt to salvage your pot.  To be "Ruler of the kings of the earth" easily means He will rule over all the nations, who will have their own kings.>>>

  I believe that I included that ALL kings in history, Christ is King of kings over. Didn't I?  However it is the consecrated saints rewarded to reign with Christ which are the greater glory to God.  So for this reason when it says He has made kings and priest to reign on the earth, it is THESE cooperative sons of God who meant. Don't you think so?

I do believe eternal rewards will be to "reign with Christ" per 2 Tim 2:12 or "share in Christ's glory" per Rom 8:17b.  But they aren't the "man-child".  

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 These are the constitients of the man-child who is to shepherd the nations as co-kings with Christ.   And some others who were not martyred will also reign. But that is another discussion.

Since the Bema will reward ALL faithful believers from every generation from Adam forward, of course non trib martyrs will reign with Christ.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<Sure do.  Paul taught about eternal rewards through endurance.>>>

 I well should open up another thread dealing with eternal rewards verses dispensational rewards.   The purpose of the millennial kingdom is for dispensational rewards of 1,000 years.

Can you prove this from Scripture?  I see no effective difference.  Kinda like a difference without a distinction.  I know that all believers in history will be at the Bema, to be evaluated by the King.  

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 <<<<There is NO "corporate" man-child.  >>>

  You say that with ample aplum and dogmatism. But I have not yet seen your alternative explanation for who the "THEY,THEM,THIER, BROTHERS" as overcomers could refer to in Rev. 12 beside the man-child.

Sure you have.  THE king Himself, the Lord Jesus Christ.  The description is obvious.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 I am keeping an eye out for your alternative interpretation.

I don't have an "alternate" interpretation.  I have the obvious understanding.  How many believers/scholars/etc believe as you do about this "corporate" man-child/  I've been a believer for over 69 years, and I've never heard what you believe.

Have any books been written about this that agree with you?

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 Oh, I recall you saying you read the NT so many times in 20 years. Great! We can praise the Lord for such hunger.

Not "so many times", but monthly.  😁

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<Hardly.  You haven't and can't prove your claim (case) about this so-called "corporate" man-child.  >>>

  No one is so blind as the person who will not see. Do you not WISH that Christ would be able to fulfill His word?

My understanding of the God-man changes nothing and puts no limits on Christ.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. (Matt. 5:5)

This refers to faithful believers being rewarded.  This doesn't directly prove who the "man-child" is.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Do you not CARE that Jesus has some He can reward to inherit the planet because of thier meekness in Him? Don't you see that this is a glory to Jesus Christ?

I've known fully about eternal rewards for a very long time.  But how many believers still don't understand anything or much about rewards.  

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 "Humph! There is no corporate stronger man-child within the total body of God's people!" you say in essence.

When did I say this "in essence"?  I don't even understand what it means.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 But the plain teaching of Jesus is that among at first His disciples, they will be on thrones in the restoration of the millennial kingdom. 

Of course.  You act as though I don't believe in eternal rewards.  😭

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

You just need to be enlarged to SEE what the SIGN of the man-child could point to.

I'm not looking to gain any weight!  It is the God-man who will reward His faithful servants.  2 Cor 5:10 explains it all.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

And are these twelve disciples the only ones to be upon thrones? No they are not. But . . . Faithful is the word: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;2Ti If we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us; (2 Tim. 2:11,12)

Yes, I have that.  There will be eternal rewards.  So far, none of the verses you quoted show that the "man-child" are rewarded servants.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

His master said to him, Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful over a few things; I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master. (Matt. 25:23) 

For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he shall abound; but from him who does not have, even that which he has shall be taken away from him. (v.29)

Yes, the faithful servants will be rewarded in eternity.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Do not say I have not shown you plain teaching. The sign of the stronger man-child taken out of the weaker woman of universal light represents to so rewarded overcomers.

You call this "plain teaching"?  No, I call it opinion.  The description of the 'man-child' describes the Lord Jesus, not people.  It is in the singular, but you seem to play loose with language.

Are you aware that of 32 English translations on biblehub.com only ONE translation, the American Standard, uses "man-child" in Rev 12:5.  All the others use "male child" or similar.  So I see no reason to accept your 'interpretation'.  No one else does.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Specifically, these ones were martyred BEFORE the great tribulation in both the NT and OT times.

Doesn't matter.  All faithful believers will be rewarded at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Bema) per 2 Cor 5:10.  Regardless of whether OT or NT.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

  How about the plain teaching that some overcomers will sit with Christ on His throne as He overcame and sat on His Father's throne?

I FULLY agree that faithful believers will be rewarded.  But there is no "man-child" in Rev 12:5.  There is a male child, Jesus.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<So now we have a "corporate" woman as well as a "corporate man-child".  Nope.>>>

  You can't be serious.  You cannot see that the woman there is a collective?

What "clue" is there to indicate this (singular) woman is a collective?  I'm into plain language.  

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

The persecution of her is really the persecution of the rest of her children.

I've already addressed this.  The "woman" is Israel, the nation.  Jesus was born a Jew.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

The persecution of her is the persecution of the rest of her seed. And it is as clear as crystal that the plural pronoun "them" and "saints" is used in relation to the persecuted WOMAN. 

Woman refers to the nation, not individuals.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

You see? The saints, the seed, the children, them all refer to the sign of the woman fleeing persecution. God will nourish the body of believers on earth passing through the GT. Yet SOME will be martyred.

The Jews have been persecuted from their origin.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<If you can't see the obvious reference to Israel producing the Messiah, I think there's not much hope for you to understand Scripture.>>>

 You are saying perhaps that the woman of universal light who brings forth the man-child in limited to Israel. 

That's pretty obvious to me.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

But overcomers came out of not just Israel. Before Abraham and Israel we have overcomers like Abel who loved God unto his DEATH at the hands of Cain.

There are overcomers in every generation.  But the male child came out of Israel.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

  <<<This is very figurative language and anyone can claim it means whatever they NEED it to mean to support their own "private interpretation".>>>

 There can be private unbelief as well. 

All unbelief is personal, therefore "private".  What is the point?

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

  Your alternative explanation seems at this point to be that the woman of universal light is Israel and the child is Jesus.

That is the natural understanding of the text.  I'm still curious as to whether your viewes have been confined to any book.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

When Jesus was born was He immediately caught up to the throne of God in Heaven? 

The text doesn't say "immediately" so why do you?

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

  It is easy to see Jesus there because He is the PRIME prototype Overcomer of all history.

Bingo.  I still believe the male child is Jesus Christ.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

   Going back to First Corinthians 15.  Christ came not only to shed His redeeming blood. He came in resurrection to dispense HIMSELF - HIMSELF as the divine life giving Spirit into His people.

Jesus has been giving eternal life to EVERY believer from Adam forward.  v.23 is specifically about the Second Advent.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

Believers from Adam forward were given eternal life.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 Christ rose from the dead to be the Head of a new humanity. He is the second manm. He is the last Adam to impart His overcoming life into all whom He has redeemed. He came to duplicate His overcoming by being the God's life dispensing Spirit.

I'm not sure what is meant by "new humanity".  Believers are a new creation, per 2 Cor 5:17.  Maybe you are referring to all resurrected believers are a new humanity because all will have glorified immortal bodies, like Jesus' resurrection body.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Why you do not see this man-child as a triumphant vindication of Christ as the life giving Spirit causing others to overcome is indeed perculiar.

I see "male child" in Rev 125, which clearly refers to Jesus as the God-man.  Christ was triumphantly vindicated at His resurrection.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<Kinda like being all over the map here.  Pulling verses from a wide variety of verses.  >>>

   Do you deny that God's revelation is not always systematized in one place in the Bible?  You too pull from here and from there some things. 

Of course I am well aware of that.  But none of the verses you're pulling together support your view.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

    The Lord's revelation, He told us would be "here a little, there a little."  (Isa. 28:10-16)   We have to learn to cut straight the word of God.  All the truths are not always systemnatically located in one place like a computer flowchart.

That is exactly my point.  "Cut straight the word of God".  That means plain and clear language.  

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

     Patience, time, and experience are needed to illuminate the wisdom in the Bible. And I did not see all this I explain by myself.  We are able to stand upon the shoulders of others who long explored these things.

Could you point out the book(s) that lay out your view?  And how many scholars/Bible teachers/etc believe as you do?

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<I don't even have an opinion.  I KNOW what the plain language of Scripture SAYS and I believe that.  >>>

I encourage you to be enlarged in your understanding. Haven't your grown from the first time you read the Bible?

Of course I have.  And I learned from the Bereans, per Acts 17:11, to "search the Scriptures daily to see if what whoever says is true.  That requires plain language.  Not metaphors, figures of speech, etc.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

  No harm is done to any tenet of your faith by intepreting the man-child as the corporate THEM, THEY, THIER, brothers who are resurrected and rapture just before the GT.

Since I already am fully aware of faithful believers from all generations being rewarded at the Bema, I don't need to see them in "the male child" who will rule the nations with a rod of iron.  I do need to see that Jesus Christ is the King of kings, who rules the nations with that rod of iron.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 <<<I'm fully aware of faithful believers who will be richly rewarded.  But there is no "early rapture" to heaven for anyone.  Or the Bible would have plainly made that clear, and you have no clear verses.>>>

it should be CLEAR to you, if you are not too indoctrinated, to see that the CAUSE of the great tribulation is because the catching up of the overcomers results in Satan being limited.

I strongly disagree.  The cause of the tribulation is the wickedness of mankind, coming to a head.  And satan will be indwelling the ruler of the world.  This means maximum evil and wickedness.  That's the cause.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

By successive stages Satan has been pushed back, pushed down, and restricted more and more.

I don't think your eyes are open.  Just in this country we've seen a HUGE influx of evil over the years.  Satan won't be limited until AFTER the Tribulation when Jesus returns and satan is locked in the abyss for 1,000 years, only to be released then, when he gathers the nations all together for the battle of Gog and Magog to destroy the King on His throne.  At that time, he will be cast into the LOF, to be tormented day and night, for ever along with the beast and false prophet, who have been there already for 1,000 years.  And after the GWT judgment, ALL unbelievers will be cast into the LOF as well.  All of them to be tormented day and night, for ever and ever.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

The ones who are to rejoice in Heaven are the ones who were raptured there.

There is no "rapture to heaven".  No verse says so.  Not in ANY of the resurrection verses/texts.  It doesn't occur.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

The ones just captured up to the throne in verse 5 are the overcomers for whom the kingdom has come within them. Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them.

There is no rapture to heaven in the Bible.  All believers will be resurrected at the Second Advent and stay on earth to reign with Christ or serve Him.

13 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 

 

[Feedmysheep]

15 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

 

   I won't answer everything. And this will not be in order.

<<< I always pray for understanding.  And I'll add you to my list.  👍>>>

Good. And thanks. As I am praying also for you and everyone reading this thread.

 <<<Since I already am fully aware of faithful believers from all generations being rewarded at the Bema, I don't need to see them in "the male child" who will rule the nations with a rod of iron.  I do need to see that Jesus Christ is the King of kings, who rules the nations with that rod of iron.>>>

     You're not needing to see it (woman delivering the man-child collective)  does not make it not there. 

      Some of the Jewish Scripture experts didn't need to see certain aspects of the Messiah. Their heart didn't care about some things. They knew the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem yet they didn't go there like the magi to see this born King. 

      So you don't NEED to see the overcomers in Revelation 12. One day you may be hungry to see this.  The the aged Apostle John needed to see that in spite of the surrounding and progressing degradation of the church the believers would bee triumphant.

    Anyone who does not see the degraded condition of Church today will not understand well the book of Revelation. 

<<<Without plain language that supports this claim, and plus the FACT of the 4 verses that specifically speak of resurrection in the singular, I do not see any kind of rapture in Rev 14.>>>

      HOW did they get there to be in Heaven if they were not raptured there?        Where is your plain verse there saying they are dead souls who are in Heaven and not yet resurrected? 

     You do not have a plain text saying the 144,000 died and went to heaven to receive thier resurrected bodies.  The better logic is that in the last days a minority of Christians who follow the Lord (the Lamb) will like Enoch be taken. In this case we know they will be taken "purchased from the earth" to the heaveny Mount Zion. 

 The function of specifying a finite number symbolizing perfection probably means it is a REMNANT from the larger WHOLE of virtually unnumbered believers trying to follow the Lamb. So the numbered amount of firstfruits should not mean the whole church universal. That is what I believe the Holy Spirit is signifying by the use of 144,000 - a significant subset - a minority of significance. 

    <<<Poor conclusion.  Of course I care about what Jesus cares about.  >>>

   Then it should not be outlandish for the Spirit to convey to us that not all overcome by the time Christ returns. But a remnant will have. 

<<< Have you really thought about the words "rules the nations with an iron rod"?  Doesn't sound much like gentleness and kindness.  More like very strict rules/etc.>>>

        I don't know why you even wrote this. I said exactly nothing about the millennial kingdom being (for the nations transfered from the church age into that age) a picnic.  Of course shepherding implies getting people into line as the need arises.

       <<<There is no rapture to heaven in the Bible.>>>

1.)   Once again then HOW did the 144,000 first fruits arrive there?

And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harp-singers playing on their harps. (Rev. 14:2) 

2.)    How did the multitude rejoicing in chapter 19 GET THERE ? 

     After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God.  (Rev. 19:1) 

 3.)  How did these get there if not by rapture? 

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them.  (Rev. 12:12a)

I do not ask you about Rev. 14:14-17 or First Thess. 4:17 because those two passages do not say the ones caught up are taken to heaven. But with Rev. 12: 12; 14:2; 19:1 it is clear that these people are in heaven. 

So here are three verses questioned to which I expect three answers if you take Scripture seriously.  This better be good. 

<<<Well, there's where we disagree.  For me, the "man-child" is the God-man.  I will not repent of that.>>>

   I don't think it is a matter or a moral repentance needed for not seeing the signs.

   You can't see that THE God-man has a desire to produce many God-men ?  How can you well understand the Bible if you do not see that from the beginning God intended to have a collective in His image exercising His dominion?

   And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth. (Gen. 1:26) 

  God must recover this original eternal purpose which Adam relinquished when when he fell. 

   Don't you see that the "male-child" - man-child is a sign that the divine image and the divine dominion is RECOVERED. At least at first it is recovered with a remnant.

   This remnant is like the small army of 300 that Gideon led into battle. I implore you to read tonight or soon about Gideon's small army in Judges chapter 7. 

 The account is significant to a principle throughout history. Out of a larger number of God secures victory for the whole through a small comparitive minority. From Judges 7: 

And Jehovah said to Gideon, The people with you are too many for Me to deliver Midian into their hand; Israel might vaunt himself against Me, saying, My own hand has saved me. (v.2)

Now then proclaim in the hearing of the people, saying, Whoever is afraid and trembling should return and depart from here. And twenty-two thousand of the people returned, and ten thousand remained. (v.3)

Then Jehovah said to Gideon, The people are still too many. Bring them down to the water, and I will test them for you there. And he of whom I say to you, This one shall go with you, he shall go with you. And every one of whom I say to you, This one shall not go with you, he shall not go. (v.4)

So he brought the people down to the water. And Jehovah said to Gideon, Everyone who laps from the water with his tongue, as a dog laps, you shall set apart; likewise everyone who bows down on his knees to drink. (v.5)

And the number of those who lapped the water into their mouth with their hand was three hundred men, but the rest of the people bowed down on their knees to drink water. (v.6)

And Jehovah said to Gideon, Through the three hundred men who lapped I will save you, and I will deliver Midian into your hand. But let all the other people go, each to his own place. (v.7)

First 22,000 Israelites were eliminated. Then from 10,000 left most were sifted out except for 300.  It was this remnant minority from the greater crowd that God would obtain glory through thier victory. What they accomplished through God was eventually for the benefit of the whole nation.

This principle is repeated elsewhere in the Bible. And this is what you should notice about a larger Woman of universal light delivering a man-child out from her of overcomers.

And I recommend you consider reading the chapter entitled "And She Brought Forth a Man-child" from "The Glorious Church" by Watchman Nee.

 https://www.ministrybooks.org/books/reader.php?cid=qmW-qypQx2S8&s=0

<<<Can you prove this from Scripture?  I see no effective difference.  Kinda like a difference without a distinction.  I know that all believers in history will be at the Bema, to be evaluated by the King.  >>>

   I certainly can give evidence that the rewards of the millennium are dispensational. And the common lot of grace to all believers is the eternal enjoyment for the whole total elect.  But I would rather not go into that in this thread.  

 <<<I don't have an "alternate" interpretation.  I have the obvious understanding.  How many believers/scholars/etc believe as you do about this "corporate" man-child/  I've been a believer for over 69 years, and I've never heard what you believe.>>>

   This is noted. Sometime it might be fun to exchange testimonies about how one changed a certain long held belief latter.  Sometimes, we adjust what we believed before.

   And it is not suprising that you have never heard some of these things. We may talk about that another time. We should be careful about the Bible's teaching. But we should be careful according to what the Bible says more than whether something has a "traditional flavor." 

The Holy Spirit is recovering neglected truths in the Bible in these last days. I said neglected truths not NEW truth. 

<<<When did I say this "in essence"?  I don't even understand what it means>>>

Because I was trying to paraphrase you rather then verbatim quote you, I said "in essence you're saying this . . . "   You probably object that you're being misrepresented. 

<<<My understanding of the God-man changes nothing and puts no limits on Christ.>>>

 Does it put a limit on this?   In the last days God will select a Godeon like small army from those deceased. And just before the last three and one half years of the present age, He will resurrect these overcomers.

   Let's get a little more specific. The ones resurrected and raptured as a Gideon's small army like stronger fighting unit are the same ones seen underneath the altar at the fifth trumpet. They ask God HOW LONG before their vindication.    

And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had.

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Master, holy and true, will You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

And to each of them was given a white robe; and it was said to them that they should rest yet a little while, until also the number of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed, even as they were, is completed. (Rev. 6:9-11)

  This requires more writing than I will do now. But "underneath the altar" means underneath the earth in Paradise. I predict that you have never heard this before either.

  But in brief, these souls who are underneath the altar (the place of sacrifice) will cry out to God for vengence have their prayer. I believe these will be of those resurrected as man-child. But includes OT saints as well. 

   The fifth seal discloses Christian martyrdom from the first century to the time of the end of the age. I believe it probably includes martyrs from the Old Testament times as well. (Matt. 23:34-36). Believers who are preaching the gospel sre continually being martyred.   

Out of the total number in Paradise there is the greater number who are of the Bright Woman. But the symbol of the woman means the weaker vessel (1 Pet. 3:7).

The stronger minority part is for fighting God's warfare against the Devil. And the crying out of God's people has always been for  a fighting stronger ones among God's people to prevail in fighting against Satan. 

The crying out of the Woman who gives birth to the Man-child should represent the crying from suffering the travail of delivery (See Isa. 26:17-18; Jer. 6:24; 13:21; 30:6; Micah 4:9-10; 5:3; Gal. 4:19). 

The Lord's people throughout the ages have been crying out that the stronger in endurance ane faith among His people would FIGHT for God's kingdom. 

   And she was with child, and she cried out, travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth. (Rev. 12:2) 

 Think about this as you read those passages on God's people in the travail of delivery. 

  Now it always OUGHT to have been that EVERY believer OT and NT be such a fighter. But historical reality is that only a remnant are equiped to engage in spiritual warfare. 

  THink of how many thousands of people heard Jesus and were perhaps healed by Him. Think of the multitudes that were blessed by Him. But after His resurrection only 120 were in the upper room awaiting the power of the Holy Spirit.

 Where were all the hundreds of people who had demons cast out of them or were healed by Jesus?  You see? The spearhead of God's operation often is limited to a smaller number.

 This is the principle with which we should understand the man-child coming from the bright woman in Revelation 12. 

 I stop this post here.  Has all been said in response? By no means so. 

<<<  All believers will be resurrected at the Second Advent and stay on earth to reign with Christ or serve Him >>>

  No, not all. And not all will have to pass through unresurrected and unraptured during the great tribulation.  What OUGHT to be is not always what occurs. 

   And though you have a grasp of the Bema judgement seat of Christ, you should notice that of the SAVED eternally there are two catagories in 1 Cor. 3:13-15.

 The Saved and Rewarded.

 The Saved who suffer loss. 

 

The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one’s work, of what sort it is.

If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;

If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:13-15) 

I am not saying that First Corinthians 3:13-15 is a discussion about resurrection per se or rapture per se. Please don't come back with saying this passage says nothing about a man-child resurrection / rapture or a firstfruits rapture.

  I am saying that the principle of  the passage effects matters concerning readiness for the end of the age as well.  

 

    

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

   I won't answer everything. And this will not be in order.

Neither will I.  This is one very loooooooong post!!!!!!

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

 <<<Since I already am fully aware of faithful believers from all generations being rewarded at the Bema, I don't need to see them in "the male child" who will rule the nations with a rod of iron.  I do need to see that Jesus Christ is the King of kings, who rules the nations with that rod of iron.>>>

     You're not needing to see it (woman delivering the man-child collective)  does not make it not there.

The same can be said of your view.  The problem is that your view still doesn't show a rapture to heaven.  You have to make huge assumptions.  And I have proven from a number of verses that there will be just a (singular) resurrection.  And NO resurrection verse includes any description of Jesus taking these freshly resurrected believers to heaven.  So it isn't going to happen.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

 Anyone who does not see the degraded condition of Church today will not understand well the book of Revelation. 

That would be hard to imagine, not seeing the condition of today's church.  What a mess.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<Without plain language that supports this claim, and plus the FACT of the 4 verses that specifically speak of resurrection in the singular, I do not see any kind of rapture in Rev 14.>>>

      HOW did they get there to be in Heaven if they were not raptured there?

Good question!  The SAME WAY Lazarus got to Abraham's bosom;  angel escort in Luke 16.  Where do you think the sou/spirit of believers go after death?  Just stay in the stinking rotting body??  There is NO reason from Scripture to think there will be a trip to heaven in a resurrection body, esp since the Bible plainly states that there will be a singular resurrection when Jesus returns to earth after the Tribulation.  Then, all believers will be either reigning with the King, or serving Him, on earth.  No believer will be in heaven during the Millennium.  

That is, unless they can be, but God hasn't disclosed that detail yet.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

        Where is your plain verse there saying they are dead souls who are in Heaven and not yet resurrected?

Jesus spoke of 2 Jews who died and both went to Hades, Laz to Paradise, which Jesus called "abraham's bosom" and the rich man to "torments".  The prophet Samuel had died, when Saul went to a witch to talk to Samuel.  The Bible SAYS that Samuel spoke to Saul and vice versa.  Doesn't say Saul "only thought he was talking to Samuel".  So we know that when people die, their souls/spirits leave the body.  James 2:26.

After the resurrection of Jesus, He took all the saints in Paradise (abraham's bosom) to heaven with him.  This was no resurrection with glorified bodies.  And Rev 6 speaks of souls under the altar singing and talking.  And the scene is in heaven.  Not difficult to figure out.  Souls in heaven.  Not glorified bodies.

Rev 19a speaks of the souls in heaven (all dead saints) preparing for the wedding supper and 19b describes these souls preparing to leave heaven with Jesus back to earth.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

You do not have a plain text saying the 144,000 died and went to heaven to receive thier resurrected bodies.

Because that will NEVER happen!!  Every believer will receive their resurrection body when Jesus returns.  1 Thess 4:13-17 covers the event and includes those still alive.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

  The better logic is that in the last days a minority of Christians who follow the Lord (the Lamb) will like Enoch be taken.=

Nope.  No clear verse to support that.  And there are a number of verses that specifically refer to the resurrection as singular.  

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

 The function of specifying a finite number symbolizing perfection probably means it is a REMNANT from the larger WHOLE of virtually unnumbered believers trying to follow the Lamb. So the numbered amount of firstfruits should not mean the whole church universal. That is what I believe the Holy Spirit is signifying by the use of 144,000 - a significant subset - a minority of significance.

None of this is about any resurrection or rapture.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

 <<<Poor conclusion.  Of course I care about what Jesus cares about.  >>>

   Then it should not be outlandish for the Spirit to convey to us that not all overcome by the time Christ returns. But a remnant will have.

So what's the point?  When Christ returns, some believers will receive reward, and others won't.  But ALL will receive their glorified immortal bodies.  That is what 1 Clr 15:23 says.  So I reject any idea that includes multiple resurrections or a rapture trip to heaven.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

       <<<There is no rapture to heaven in the Bible.>>>

1.)   Once again then HOW did the 144,000 first fruits arrive there?

Simply by DYING and their souls/spirits going to heaven.

Are you not familiar with how Paul distinguished between physical life and death?

2 Cor 5:6 - Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body (alive on planet earth) we are away from the Lord (not in heaven).

v.8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body (dead) and at home with the Lord (in heaven).

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

 

And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harp-singers playing on their harps. (Rev. 14:2) 

2.)    How did the multitude rejoicing in chapter 19 GET THERE ?

I just told you.  They DIED and went to heaven.  Like EVERY OTHER saint who has died.  Do you have any family members who were saved and have died?  Where are they now?

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

  After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God.  (Rev. 19:1) 

 3.)  How did these get there if not by rapture?

Just like EVERY believer who died gets there.  Based on Luke 16, by angel escort.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

 Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them.  (Rev. 12:12a)

I do not ask you about Rev. 14:14-17 or First Thess. 4:17 because those two passages do not say the ones caught up are taken to heaven. But with Rev. 12: 12; 14:2; 19:1 it is clear that these people are in heaven.

Of course there are people in heaven.  When people DIE, their souls/spirits go to heaven.  2 Cor 5:6,8 describes this.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

 So here are three verses questioned to which I expect three answers if you take Scripture seriously.  This better be good.

Of course my answers are "good".  👍

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

 <<<Well, there's where we disagree.  For me, the "man-child" is the God-man.  I will not repent of that.>>>

   I don't think it is a matter or a moral repentance needed for not seeing the signs.

I use "repent" in the literal sense;  to change the mind.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

   You can't see that THE God-man has a desire to produce many God-men ?

Of course that is His plan.  In FACT, all believers were PREDESTINED to be "in the image of Christ", per Rom 8:29.  But that has nothing to do with rapture.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

  How can you well understand the Bible if you do not see that from the beginning God intended to have a collective in His image exercising His dominion?

I never  said He didn't intend that.  But that is irrelevant to any discussion of a rapture.  

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

   And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth. (Gen. 1:26) 

OK, time to explain what God meant by "in OUR image".  I'll get some popcorn.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<Can you prove this from Scripture?  I see no effective difference.  Kinda like a difference without a distinction.  I know that all believers in history will be at the Bema, to be evaluated by the King.  >>>

   I certainly can give evidence that the rewards of the millennium are dispensational.

OK.  Where or when will you provide the evidence?

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<When did I say this "in essence"?  I don't even understand what it means>>>

Because I was trying to paraphrase you rather then verbatim quote you, I said "in essence you're saying this . . . "   You probably object that you're being misrepresented. 

Wouldn't you object?

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<My understanding of the God-man changes nothing and puts no limits on Christ.>>>

 Does it put a limit on this?   In the last days God will select a Godeon like small army from those deceased. And just before the last three and one half years of the present age, He will resurrect these overcomers.

There is no limit on any of this because none of this will occur.  There will be just one resurrection of believers.  No trip to heaven.  I have shown clear verses on this.  You keep wanting to fudge the truth.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

   Let's get a little more specific. The ones resurrected and raptured as a Gideon's small army like stronger fighting unit are the same ones seen underneath the altar at the fifth trumpet. They ask God HOW LONG before their vindication.

Those under the altar do not have resurrection bodies.  They simply died and are in heaven, like every other dead saint.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

 

  This requires more writing than I will do now. But "underneath the altar" means underneath the earth in Paradise. I predict that you have never heard this before either.

I am not really interested in what anyone claims about things that may be symbolic, or metaphors, or figures of speech.  Only the writer knows what he was thinking.  Neither you or I do, so I don't care because it doesn't matter.

What matters is what the Bible says compared to what humans say.  You have not been able to support any of your claims with plainly words verses.  I have.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

  THink of how many thousands of people heard Jesus and were perhaps healed by Him. Think of the multitudes that were blessed by Him. But after His resurrection only 120 were in the upper room awaiting the power of the Holy Spirit.

I'm very aware of that fact.  It shows that though many believed in Him, not that many became followers of Him.  Also, Jesus performed His miracles all over Israel, and quite a number of the healings were to people that didn't live IN Jerusalem, so could explain the low number IN Jersusalem.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<  All believers will be resurrected at the Second Advent and stay on earth to reign with Christ or serve Him >>>

  No, not all.

Then your argument is with the Bible and Paul's writing.  1 Cor 15:23 SAYS one resurrection which will be at the Second Advent.  Plainly.

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

   And though you have a grasp of the Bema judgement seat of Christ, you should notice that of the SAVED eternally there are two catagories in 1 Cor. 3:13-15.

 The Saved and Rewarded.

 The Saved who suffer loss. 

Totally aware of this.  Why do you think or assume I don't have a grasp?

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

I am not saying that First Corinthians 3:13-15 is a discussion about resurrection per se or rapture per se. Please don't come back with saying this passage says nothing about a man-child resurrection / rapture or a firstfruits rapture.

  I am saying that the principle of  the passage effects matters concerning readiness for the end of the age as well.  

It does.  But it doesn't support your claims.

[Feedmysheep]

<<<<Good question!  The SAME WAY Lazarus got to Abraham's bosom;  angel escort in Luke 16.>>>>

Lazarus being escorted to Abraham's Bosom means Lazarus went to Heaven? Prove it.

 <<< Where do you think the sou/spirit of believers go after death?>>>

The believer's soul and spirit go to Abraham's Bosom. Another name for Abraham's Bosom must be Paradise the pleasant section of Hades.

 The believing theif who died with Christ went with Christ to Paradise.  

And He said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise. (Luke 23:43)

The day Jesus died He did not go to Heaven. But He went to Paradise. Paradise must be the part of Hades which is restful and pleasant rather than punishing like what the rich man experienced.

 We can know that this pleasant section of Hades is not heaven but in the heart of the earth because of the plain words of Jesus.

 For just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. (Matt. 12:40)

  So where did Jesus go on the day He died? He went to "the heart of the earth" not to Heaven. And Paradise is "in the heart of the earth". For three days that is where Jesus and the believing thief went. 

Ephesians 4:9 agrees, saying that Jesus died and went to "the lower parts of the earth."

(Now this, “He ascended,” what is it except that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth?

Did the spirit and soul of Jesus and thebelieving thief go to Heaven on that "today?"  No. They went to "Paradise" in "the lower parts of the earth." And that is where Abrahams Bosom is - "in the heart of the earth" - "the lower parts of the earth" aka. Paradise. 

Since then all believers who die go to Paradise not Heaven. 

 <<<Just stay in the stinking rotting body??>>>

 I proved that Jesus died, with the theif, and went to Paradise underneath the earth. His body in the grave did not see corruption while His soul and spirit were in Paradise. 

Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor will You permit Your Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 2:27) 

But the bodies of all other people who have died, including believers, see corruption as their bodies decay / stink / rot. 

 So you are wrong that Christians throughout the ages have died and go to heaven. Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom is now in the same place "in the heart of the earth." 

<<<  There is NO reason from Scripture to think there will be a trip to heaven in a resurrection body,>>>

At the end of the age the man-child is transfered from Abraham's Bosom which is Paradies under the earth in resurrected and transfigured bodies to the thone of God before the start of 1,260 days. 

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12:5) 

AND . . . some living and not dead will be transfigured alive and raptured to the heavenly Mount Zion.

 

And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harp-singers playing on their harps. (Rev. 14:1,2) 

AND . . . a great multitude is seen in heaven surely being transfigured and/or resurrected  and raptured there in Revelation 19. 

After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God. (Rev. 19:1) 

<<< since the Bible plainly states that there will be a singular resurrection when Jesus returns to earth after the Tribulation.>>>

The Bible states plainly that there is ONE Baptism. Yet in time the Jews were baptized into the one Body. And latter in the house of Cornelius the Gentiles were baptized into one Body. 

As there can be ONE Baptism yet carried out on more than one moment so also there can be one resurrection of believers, yet carried out in more than one day.

<<<  Then, all believers will be either reigning with the King, or serving Him, on earth.  No believer will be in heaven during the Millennium.  >>>

i never said the STAYED in heaven after being raptured there. The great multitude in heaven in Revelation 19 is the same chapter is seen coming DOWN from heaven as Christ's bridal army, to the earth.

After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God. (Rev. 19:1)

And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean. (Rev. 19:14) 

So you are wrong on at least six counts:

1.) Today believers are in Abraham's Bosom underneath the earth, not in heaven.

2.) We see three groups of believers raptured to heaven. You say there are none.

3.) We see believers not staying in heaven but desending with Christ as His bridal army. So staying in heaven is a strawman argument. 

4.) And the firstfruits and the man-child are perfect candidates to be ones raprured and resurrecrted and raptured to heaven before the great tribulation.

5.) They are a remnant and minority rather than the entire universal total number of saints. This is like Gideon's small yet victorious army of a minority.

6.)  God can promise one resurrection yet part is accomplised before the 1,260 days and part is carried out at its conclusion. That does not violate this truth -

But each one in his own order: the firstfruits, Christ; then those who are Christ’s at His coming; (1 Cor. 15:23) 

 

Edited January 4 by Feedmysheep

[FreeGrace]

55 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<<Good question!  The SAME WAY Lazarus got to Abraham's bosom;  angel escort in Luke 16.>>>>

Lazarus being escorted to Abraham's Bosom means Lazarus went to Heaven? Prove it.

Nothing to prove.  I never said he went to heaven.  He went to Hades, but to a different compartment than the rich man.  He went to where ALL OT saints went;  Paradise, or Abraham's bosom.  There is also a compartment called "torments" where the rich man went.  It's all there in Luke 16.

55 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 <<< Where do you think the sou/spirit of believers go after death?>>>

The believer's soul and spirit go to Abraham's Bosom. Another name for Abraham's Bosom must be Paradise the pleasant section of Hades.

 The believing theif who died with Christ went with Christ to Paradise.

There's more.  All OT saints went to Paradise in Hades.  But after Jesus' resurrection, He went to Hades, "preached to the spirits in prison" and then took all the OT saints up to heaven.  And from that time, all saints go directly to heaven at death.

55 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

  And He said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise. (Luke 23:43)

The day Jesus died He did not go to Heaven. But He went to Paradise.

Paradise must be the part of Hades which is restful and pleasant rather than punishing like what the rich man experienced.

Correct.

55 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 We can know that this pleasant section of Hades is not heaven but in the heart of the earth because of the plain words of Jesus.

  So where did Jesus go on the day He died? He went to "the heart of the earth" not to Heaven. And Paradise is "in the heart of the earth". For three days that is where Jesus and the believing thief went. 

Since then all believers who die go to Paradise not Heaven. 

Then you disagree with what Paul wrote, in 2 Cor 5:6 - Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.  8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Your confusion on where all believers go at death may be what drives your view that in Rev 6 and others those in heaven "must have been raptured" to get there.

Paul made very clear that a believer is either physically alive, which means away from the Lord (v.6) or away from the body (dead) and "at home with the Lord" (in heaven).

Or, do you think Jesus has been staying in Hades all this time?

Listen to Acts 3:21 - Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

I have the previous edition of the NIV, which says, He must STAY in heaven until . . "

The Greek word means to "retain/contain".  So basically both are saying the same thing:  Jesus stays in heaven until the restoration, which obviously refers to the Second Advent when Jesus returns to earth.

So the Bible tells us that Jesus is IN heaven and will be until the Second Advent.  Even this verse refutes the idea that Jesus "comes to the clouds" ANY time before the Second Advent and takes resurrected believers to heaven.

Nope.  He stays there until the time for the King to "restore everything".

So there are NO believers left in Hades.  The only ones still there are all unbelievers who have died, plus fallen angels in a compartment called "Tartarus".

55 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 <<<Just stay in the stinking rotting body??>>>

 I proved that Jesus died, with the theif, and went to Paradise underneath the earth.

"proved"??  No, the Bible plainly says so.  Nothing to prove.

55 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 So you are wrong that Christians throughout the ages have died and go to heaven.

I actually proved from Scripture where all the dead have gone.  In the OT, before the resurrection of Jesus, all souls went to Hades, believers to Paradise and unbelievers to Torments.  And the imprisoned fallen angels to Tartarus.

When Jesus resurrected, He went to Hades, preached to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:19 - by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison), and then took all the OT saints with Him to heaven.  Eph 4:8-10

55 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom is now in the same place "in the heart of the earth."

I just proved from Scripture that ALL dead saints are with the Lord in heaven.

55 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 <<<  There is NO reason from Scripture to think there will be a trip to heaven in a resurrection body,>>>

At the end of the age the man-child is transfered from Abraham's Bosom which is Paradies under the earth in resurrected and transfigured bodies to the thone of God before the start of 1,260 days.

Your timing is WAY OFF.  Jesus took ALL OT saints to heaven with Him when He ascended.  You have the verses.

55 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harp-singers playing on their harps. (Rev. 14:1,2)

There is nothing here about resurrection or rapture.

55 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 AND . . . a great multitude is seen in heaven surely being transfigured and/or resurrected  and raptured there in Revelation 19.

Nope.  They are ALL the dead saints in human history.  Awaiting their resurrection when the King returns to earth at the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23 proves it.  Along with 1 Thess 4:13-17.

55 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God. (Rev. 19:1)

Keep reading the chapter.  From v.1-10 are all the dead saints, first praising God (v.1-5) and then preparing for the wedding supper (v.6-10).

Then, from v.11-16 these believers follow the King to earth, for the battle of Armageddon, and then to receive their resurrection bodies.

55 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<< since the Bible plainly states that there will be a singular resurrection when Jesus returns to earth after the Tribulation.>>>

The Bible states plainly that there is ONE Baptism. Yet in time the Jews were baptized into the one Body. And latter in the house of Cornelius the Gentiles were baptized into one Body. 

As there can be ONE Baptism yet carried out on more than one moment so also there can be one resurrection of believers, yet carried out in more than one day.

I see that you don't properly understand what "one baptism" even means. If you are thinking of being dunked in water, you are way off again.  The Greek word was originally to describe a cloth being immersed in a vat of dye and coming out with a NEW identity (color).  Over time, the word began to be used in that sense, of either a new identity, or being identified with someone/thing.

So, in Eph 4:5, one Lord means one Savior, one faith means one "textbook", the Bible, and one baptism means our identification with Christ at the moment of faith in Christ.  So it is technical for one way to be saved, which is described well in Eph 1:13 - And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

So it should be obvious that being "sealed with the Holy Spirit" gives the believer a NEW identity and the believer is identified with Christ.

Paul described it this way in 2 Cor 5:17 - Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

55 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<  Then, all believers will be either reigning with the King, or serving Him, on earth.  No believer will be in heaven during the Millennium.  >>>

i never said the STAYED in heaven after being raptured there. The great multitude in heaven in Revelation 19 is the same chapter is seen coming DOWN from heaven as Christ's bridal army, to the earth.

Yes, heaven will be emptied of all humans at the Second advent.  There will be NO REASON for any human to either stay in heaven or go back there.  And the Bible is totally silent on any trips to heaven.

55 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

So you are wrong on at least six counts:

1.) Today believers are in Abraham's Bosom underneath the earth, not in heaven.

You never proved this.  Your claim is not evidence.  I HAVE evidence from Scripture.

55 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

2.) We see three groups of believers raptured to heaven. You say there are none.

You haven't proved this either.  There are NO verses that describe Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.  So your view has NO evidence.

55 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

4.) And the firstfruits and the man-child are perfect candidates to be ones raprured and resurrecrted and raptured to heaven before the great tribulation.

Only in the fantasy that there will be multiple raptures, when there will be NONE, as the Bible says NOTHING about any resurrected believers taking a trip to heaven.

55 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

5.) They are a remnant and minority rather than the entire universal total number of saints. This is like Gideon's small yet victorious army of a minority.

Just more conjecture.  No evidence.

55 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

6.)  God can promise one resurrection yet part is accomplised before the 1,260 days and part is carried out at its conclusion. That does not violate this truth -

God is never contradictory, or inconsistent.  EVERY mention in the Bible of resurrection is in the singular, and 1 Cor 15:23 is so clear as to completely refute all your conjectures.

55 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

But each one in his own order: the firstfruits, Christ; then those who are Christ’s at His coming; (1 Cor. 15:23)  

Yes sir!!  Only one resurrection, for ALL believers (those who are Christ's) at His Second Advent.  Could not be said any more clear.  This verse alone refutes all your claims.  And there are many more.

[Feedmysheep]

<<<I am not really interested in what anyone claims about things that may be symbolic, or metaphors, or figures of speech.  Only the writer knows what he was thinking.  Neither you or I do, so I don't care because it doesn't matter.>>>

Then that explains why you don't care much about Revelation because it reveals things to us by signs.

The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show to His slaves the things that must quickly take place; and He made it known by signs, sending it by His angel to His slave John, (Rev. 1:1) 

There are very bad intepretations, better interpretations, and arguably the best interpretations.

I have explored better and imo best ones. I have interpreted the Bible with the Bible. I have not let imagination run wild. 

I have considered where these signs appeared elsewhere in the Bible and used that principle for better interpretations. 

 

Edited January 4 by Feedmysheep

[Feedmysheep]

<<<Yes sir!!  Only one resurrection, for ALL believers (those who are Christ's) at His Second Advent.  Could not be said any more clear.  This verse alone refutes all your claims.  And there are many more.>>>

No it hasn't  Some reading along can tell the difference between standing faithfully with the Scripture and someone who is just plain stubborn. 

 

[Feedmysheep]

<<<Yes, heaven will be emptied of all humans at the Second advent.  There will be NO REASON for any human to either stay in heaven or go back there.  And the Bible is totally silent on any trips to heaven.>>>

So stop arguing with me as if I am teaching that - ie.  heaven as a perminent eternal home of the saved.

That is NOT what I have been telling anyone on this thread. I have been claiming resurrection takes place for a remnant at the beginning of the GT. 

 But if you throw up your hands in dispair that it is anybody's guess what the signs in Revelation show, than your veiled vision and incomplete understanding are not my fault. 

    This is something like someone reading the NT and only coming away with "We need to keep the golden rule.  All this other stuff about the Son of God is just anybody's wild guess." 

 

[Feedmysheep]

On 1/3/2025 at 12:16 PM, FreeGrace said:

I always pray for understanding.  And I'll add you to my list.  👍

Where does this "plain teaching" come from?  If Scripture cannot use plain words, why trust any other source?

What do you mean that "now you receive that the plain teaching that I cannot agree with".  From whom do you "receive" this "plain teaching"?

All of my posts are simply responses to your posts.

No, that is not the case.  I don't use tricks or tactics.  I simply respond to comments.

I never disagreed with 2 Tim 2:12.

Poor conclusion.  Of course I care about what Jesus cares about.  And that is TRUTH.  Have you really thought about the words "rules the nations with an iron rod"?  Doesn't sound much like gentleness and kindness.  More like very strict rules/etc.

And there is a very clear reason.  When the King returns and resurrects all believers, the only mortals left from the Trib will be unbelievers.  And not just every day average unbelievers.  But the hardcore unbelievers who REFUSED to repent (Rev 16:9,11) during the pouring out of God's wrath.  And all of them have taken the mark of the beast, which shows that their negative volition will not change.  

iow, The King will be ruling over an extremely hostile and angry mob.  Every one of them.

And this explains WHY there will be a world wide rebellion at the end of the Millennium.  So God sends fire from heaven and FRIES the whole lot of them.  Rev 20.

Right!  There it is:  "as pottery are broken in pieces".  This ain't no picnic during the Millennium.  Growing up, I had a pretty pleasant and peaceful notion of life during the Millennium.  Having finally read the Bible, I have repented of those notions.

Well, there's where we disagree.  For me, the "man-child" is the God-man.  I will not repent of that.

Without plain language that supports this claim, and plus the FACT of the 4 verses that specifically speak of resurrection in the singular, I do not see any kind of rapture in Rev 14.

I see this as an opinion.  No evidence from Scripture.  And refuting Scripture as well.

Of course they are.  But the very clear verses that refute any notion of multiple resurrections or raptures to heaven prove that your claims are untrue.

I do believe eternal rewards will be to "reign with Christ" per 2 Tim 2:12 or "share in Christ's glory" per Rom 8:17b.  But they aren't the "man-child".  

Since the Bema will reward ALL faithful believers from every generation from Adam forward, of course non trib martyrs will reign with Christ.

Can you prove this from Scripture?  I see no effective difference.  Kinda like a difference without a distinction.  I know that all believers in history will be at the Bema, to be evaluated by the King.  

Sure you have.  THE king Himself, the Lord Jesus Christ.  The description is obvious.

I don't have an "alternate" interpretation.  I have the obvious understanding.  How many believers/scholars/etc believe as you do about this "corporate" man-child/  I've been a believer for over 69 years, and I've never heard what you believe.

Have any books been written about this that agree with you?

Not "so many times", but monthly.  😁

My understanding of the God-man changes nothing and puts no limits on Christ.

This refers to faithful believers being rewarded.  This doesn't directly prove who the "man-child" is.

I've known fully about eternal rewards for a very long time.  But how many believers still don't understand anything or much about rewards.  

When did I say this "in essence"?  I don't even understand what it means.

Of course.  You act as though I don't believe in eternal rewards.  😭

I'm not looking to gain any weight!  It is the God-man who will reward His faithful servants.  2 Cor 5:10 explains it all.

Yes, I have that.  There will be eternal rewards.  So far, none of the verses you quoted show that the "man-child" are rewarded servants.

Yes, the faithful servants will be rewarded in eternity.

You call this "plain teaching"?  No, I call it opinion.  The description of the 'man-child' describes the Lord Jesus, not people.  It is in the singular, but you seem to play loose with language.

Are you aware that of 32 English translations on biblehub.com only ONE translation, the American Standard, uses "man-child" in Rev 12:5.  All the others use "male child" or similar.  So I see no reason to accept your 'interpretation'.  No one else does.

Doesn't matter.  All faithful believers will be rewarded at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Bema) per 2 Cor 5:10.  Regardless of whether OT or NT.

I FULLY agree that faithful believers will be rewarded.  But there is no "man-child" in Rev 12:5.  There is a male child, Jesus.

What "clue" is there to indicate this (singular) woman is a collective?  I'm into plain language.  

I've already addressed this.  The "woman" is Israel, the nation.  Jesus was born a Jew.

Woman refers to the nation, not individuals.

The Jews have been persecuted from their origin.

That's pretty obvious to me.

There are overcomers in every generation.  But the male child came out of Israel.

All unbelief is personal, therefore "private".  What is the point?

That is the natural understanding of the text.  I'm still curious as to whether your viewes have been confined to any book.

The text doesn't say "immediately" so why do you?

Bingo.  I still believe the male child is Jesus Christ.

Jesus has been giving eternal life to EVERY believer from Adam forward.  v.23 is specifically about the Second Advent.

Believers from Adam forward were given eternal life.

I'm not sure what is meant by "new humanity".  Believers are a new creation, per 2 Cor 5:17.  Maybe you are referring to all resurrected believers are a new humanity because all will have glorified immortal bodies, like Jesus' resurrection body.

I see "male child" in Rev 125, which clearly refers to Jesus as the God-man.  Christ was triumphantly vindicated at His resurrection.

Of course I am well aware of that.  But none of the verses you're pulling together support your view.

That is exactly my point.  "Cut straight the word of God".  That means plain and clear language.  

Could you point out the book(s) that lay out your view?  And how many scholars/Bible teachers/etc believe as you do?

Of course I have.  And I learned from the Bereans, per Acts 17:11, to "search the Scriptures daily to see if what whoever says is true.  That requires plain language.  Not metaphors, figures of speech, etc.

Since I already am fully aware of faithful believers from all generations being rewarded at the Bema, I don't need to see them in "the male child" who will rule the nations with a rod of iron.  I do need to see that Jesus Christ is the King of kings, who rules the nations with that rod of iron.

I strongly disagree.  The cause of the tribulation is the wickedness of mankind, coming to a head.  And satan will be indwelling the ruler of the world.  This means maximum evil and wickedness.  That's the cause.

I don't think your eyes are open.  Just in this country we've seen a HUGE influx of evil over the years.  Satan won't be limited until AFTER the Tribulation when Jesus returns and satan is locked in the abyss for 1,000 years, only to be released then, when he gathers the nations all together for the battle of Gog and Magog to destroy the King on His throne.  At that time, he will be cast into the LOF, to be tormented day and night, for ever along with the beast and false prophet, who have been there already for 1,000 years.  And after the GWT judgment, ALL unbelievers will be cast into the LOF as well.  All of them to be tormented day and night, for ever and ever.

There is no "rapture to heaven".  No verse says so.  Not in ANY of the resurrection verses/texts.  It doesn't occur.

There is no rapture to heaven in the Bible.  All believers will be resurrected at the Second Advent and stay on earth to reign with Christ or serve Him.

 

 <<< Of course I care about what Jesus cares about.  And that is TRUTH.  Have you really thought about the words "rules the nations with an iron rod"?  Doesn't sound much like gentleness and kindness.  More like very strict rules/etc.>>>

  This  feeling of the reigned over is not relevant to the fact that co-rulers reign with Christ. 

  <<< When the King returns and resurrects all believers, the only mortals left from the Trib will be unbelievers.  And not just every day average unbelievers.  But the hardcore unbelievers who REFUSED to repent (Rev 16:9,11) during the pouring out of God's wrath.  And all of them have taken the mark of the beast, which shows that their negative volition will not change.  >>>

Over who will the Christ and thee co-kings rulw over is another discussion I won't engage in now.  But some not condemned people are transferred from the great tribulation to be citizens of the millennium who are not Christians.  And people also will be born during that time that Satan is bound for 1,000 years.

 <<< The King will be ruling over an extremely hostile and angry mob.  Every one of them.>>>

The OT prophecies show some willingness to go up to Jerusalem and worship the God of the Jews. Meanhwile Jesus is reigning on His throne in Jerusalem.

This is a long period - 1,000 years. So much will occur and not through the entire period are all the nations reigned over in such rebellion. 

 I'd like to write about this sometime. But not now. 

<<< Of course.  You act as though I don't believe in eternal rewards.  😭>>>

Stop sobbing. Rewards do not have to be eternal to be rewards. 

If you are slack at school your graduati0n may be delayed. And you may have to attend summer school. You miss the reward of the graduation ceremony for those who wisely utilize the time wisely.  

However though you lose that reward, after summer school you graduate late. Then you enjoy what the more astute students enjoy.

You missed the reward. But you still obtain in a remedial fashion the benefit of graduation.

 This is an illustration of dispensational reward followed by the common benefit secured by those who were tardy for the reward. 

So, the NT teaches reward to the timely astute. Loss of reward to the unwise. Yet eventual catching up with the others of those who were disciplined.