Why Rome is NOT Babylon

[Anne2]

On 3/16/2025 at 11:36 AM, Luther said:

I think there can be a comparison with the finger of the priest, Moses and the Pharisees. No doubt today's rabbis consider themselves to be part of that priestly line of Aaron.

From what I have read and understand they do not see themselves as priests. Some quotes

"A rabbi is not a priest, neither in the Jewish sense of the term nor in the Christian sense of the term.  In the Christian sense of the term, a priest is a person with special authority to perform certain sacred rituals.  A rabbi, on the other hand, has no more authority to perform rituals than any other adult male member of the Jewish community."

"Since the destruction of the Temple, the role of the kohanim has diminished, and rabbis have taken over the spiritual leadership of the Jewish community.  In this sense, the rabbi has much the same role as a Protestant minister, ministering to the community, leading community religious services, and dealing with many of the administrative matters related to the synagogue."

But they do seem to take on the teaching authority, which diminished the authority of the priesthood.

"A rabbi is simply a teacher, a person sufficiently educated in halakhah (Jewish law) and tradition to instruct the community and to answer questions and resolve disputes regarding halakhah."

Usurping teaching authority (oral law by Urim and Thummim per deut 17)

Always seems connected to their ministerial duties....here and elsewhere throughout the law.

 

Deut 33:8   And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9  Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10  They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.

Deut 21:5  And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried

Mal 2:7  For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

 

John the baptist, order of Aaron....

Mal 3:1  Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Mt 11:10  For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

On 3/16/2025 at 11:36 AM, Luther said:

( From Wikipedia AI):

The Talmud, a central text in Rabbinic Judaism, presents a profound understanding of gender diversity through its recognition of eight distinct gender categories: Zachar (male), Nekeva (female), Androgynos (intersex), Tumtum (ambiguous/indeterminate), Aylonit hamah (female-to-male transition naturally), Aylonit adam ( ..

 

HMM. 

This is what Rabbis teach or have taught. The people themselves are not to be blamed. Nor even modern Rabbis. That generation in the time of Christ have do this. A perverse and crooked generation......of rulers..

 

[Luther]

10 hours ago, Anne2 said:

From what I have read and understand they do not see themselves as priests. Some quotes

"A rabbi is not a priest, neither in the Jewish sense of the term nor in the Christian sense of the term.  In the Christian sense of the term, a priest is a person with special authority to perform certain sacred rituals.  A rabbi, on the other hand, has no more authority to perform rituals than any other adult male member of the Jewish community."

"Since the destruction of the Temple, the role of the kohanim has diminished, and rabbis have taken over the spiritual leadership of the Jewish community.  In this sense, the rabbi has much the same role as a Protestant minister, ministering to the community, leading community religious services, and dealing with many of the administrative matters related to the synagogue."

But they do seem to take on the teaching authority, which diminished the authority of the priesthood.

"A rabbi is simply a teacher, a person sufficiently educated in halakhah (Jewish law) and tradition to instruct the community and to answer questions and resolve disputes regarding halakhah."

Usurping teaching authority (oral law by Urim and Thummim per deut 17)

Always seems connected to their ministerial duties....here and elsewhere throughout the law.

 

Deut 33:8   And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9  Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10  They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.

Deut 21:5  And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried

Mal 2:7  For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

 

John the baptist, order of Aaron....

Mal 3:1  Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Mt 11:10  For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

 

HMM. 

This is what Rabbis teach or have taught. The people themselves are not to be blamed. Nor even modern Rabbis. That generation in the time of Christ have do this. A perverse and crooked generation......of rulers..

 

I'm sorry that's what they would want us to believe. The Babylonian talmud was completed in written form around 500 AD, and is the authoritative book in judaism. 

Our societies have become extremely influenced ( not for the good) by that book. And I'm sorry, I know enough about it to be very confident in my claim. My point is this:

If christians are going to blindly support them they should at least understand that they don't believe what you think they do. I wonder how many christians would care anyway at this point? 

 

"The people themselves are not to be blamed"

We are all accountable before God. 

[Anne2]

13 hours ago, Luther said:

I'm sorry that's what they would want us to believe. The Babylonian talmud was completed in written form around 500 AD, and is the authoritative book in judaism. 

Hello Luther.

I would have to agree with you on some points. They have appropriated priesthood attributes, or characteristics to themselves in their synagogue services. Many call themselves a "priestly people. But I think the Pharisees by Roman approval of them taking charge of Judaism in the new Sanhedrin, was a result of this.

Provoking to jealousy/ emulation. A fulfillment of prophesy in Christ...

De 32:21  They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

As Paul spoke of his office

Apostle to the Gentiles

Ro 10:19  But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Rom 11:11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

13  For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14  If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

 

De 32:21  They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Pharasaic Judaism has taken on some Christian ideas to itself, as a rivalry.

Php1:12 But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;
13  So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places; {in Christ: or, for Christ } {the palace: or, Caesar’s court } {in all other … : or, to all others }
14  And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.
15  Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16  The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17  But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18  What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
 

[farouk]

27 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

Hello Luther.

I would have to agree with you on some points. They have appropriated priesthood attributes, or characteristics to themselves in their synagogue services. Many call themselves a "priestly people. But I think the Pharisees by Roman approval of them taking charge of Judaism in the new Sanhedrin, was a result of this.

Provoking to jealousy/ emulation. A fulfillment of prophesy in Christ...

De 32:21  They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

As Paul spoke of his office

Apostle to the Gentiles

Ro 10:19  But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Rom 11:11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

13  For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14  If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

 

De 32:21  They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Pharasaic Judaism has taken on some Christian ideas to itself, as a rivalry.

Php1:12 But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;
13  So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places; {in Christ: or, for Christ } {the palace: or, Caesar’s court } {in all other … : or, to all others }
14  And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.
15  Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16  The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17  But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18  What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
 

Searching verses there, @Anne2 It's easy to become partisan and factional, which is exactly what happened in history.

[Anne2]

1 hour ago, farouk said:

Searching verses there, @Anne2 It's easy to become partisan and factional, which is exactly what happened in history.

In some ways it is still occurring. I don't know how many times I have heard we as the church need to provoke to jealousy. Usually by taking on Pharisaical ritual ( sacraments, liturgy, etc.)

Where these were "transferred" from the temple to the synagogue when the temple was destroyed. Hence many synagogues are called "temples" . 

 

A quote from Judaism 101

"At a minimum, a synagogue is a beit tefilah, a house of prayer. It is the place where Jews come together for community prayer services. Jews can satisfy the obligations of daily prayer by praying anywhere; however, there are certain prayers that can only be said in the presence of a minyan (a quorum of 10), and tradition teaches that there is more merit to praying with a group than there is in praying alone. The sanctity of the synagogue for this purpose is second only to The Temple. In fact, in rabbinical literature, the synagogue is sometimes referred to as the "little Temple."

Take note of the last sentence above. In Rabbinic liturature...

 

They began also to model the synagogue after the temple

Quote from judaism 101

 

Functions of a Synagogue

At a minimum, a synagogue is a beit tefilah, a house of prayer. It is the place where Jews come together for community prayer services.

More quotes from Judaism 101

"Ritual Items in the Synagogue"

"The portion of the synagogue where prayer services are performed is commonly called the sanctuary."

"Probably the most important feature of the sanctuary is the Ark, a cabinet or recession in the wall that holds the Torah scroll.  The Ark has doors as well as an inner curtain called a parokhet. This curtain is in imitation of the curtain in the Sanctuary in The Temple, and is named for it"

" The Ark is called in Hebrew the Aron Kodesh ("holy cabinet"), "

" The Hebrew word "aron" is the word that is used for the ark of the covenant first described in Exodus 25."

"In front of and slightly above the Ark, you will find the ner tamid, the Eternal Lamp. This lamp symbolizes the commandment to keep a light burning in the Tabernacle outside of the curtain surrounding the Ark of the Covenant. (Ex. 27:20-21).

In addition to the ner tamid, you may find a menorah (candelabrum) in many synagogues, symbolizing the menorah in the Temple."

Quote from Catholic share

"The design of a Catholic church is not random but carefully planned to support worship. Every section has a role in bringing the faithful closer to God. The layout often mirrors the structure of the Temple in Jerusalem, as described in the Old Testament. This connection shows how Catholics see their churches as sacred spaces for meeting God."

 

It has also been said that the church is modeled after the synagogue. But from the history we see that BOTH are modeled after the temple...

You will find similar (the flame) in Catholic Churches. I think an some protestant  liturgical Churches as well.

Edited March 21 by Anne2

[Luther]

4 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Hello Luther.

I would have to agree with you on some points. They have appropriated priesthood attributes, or characteristics to themselves in their synagogue services. Many call themselves a "priestly people. But I think the Pharisees by Roman approval of them taking charge of Judaism in the new Sanhedrin, was a result of this.

Provoking to jealousy/ emulation. A fulfillment of prophesy in Christ...

De 32:21  They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

As Paul spoke of his office

Apostle to the Gentiles

Ro 10:19  But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Rom 11:11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

13  For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14  If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

 

De 32:21  They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Pharasaic Judaism has taken on some Christian ideas to itself, as a rivalry.

Php1:12 But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;
13  So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places; {in Christ: or, for Christ } {the palace: or, Caesar’s court } {in all other … : or, to all others }
14  And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.
15  Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16  The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17  But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18  What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
 

Yes it is quite amazing how scripture is being twisted these days.

Romans 11:7-8 KJV

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

[8] (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

The jews that came to Jesus when He was on  earth was part of that  "election".  And today, any jew that rejects the talmud and comes to the Lord will be saved as well.