This is my understanding to why grace cannot be earned. I have given an illustration to explain my thoughts..

[BlindEyes]

On 1/12/2025 at 9:30 AM, Fran C said:

OK

Holy means to be set apart for service to God.

My suggestion to you would be to go to a DENOMINATIONAL church and do bible study with them.  I'd suggest a Nazarene church or an Assembly of God church or, if you could find a good one, even a Catholic church.

It looks to me like you need some kind of guidance and you're not going to find it on these forums.

You're never going to be like Christ.  Theosis just is not practical.  If you like the idea of theosis then maybe you should join the Orthodox church since they do teach this.

What would happen if  you died tonight?

(seeing that you don't believe you're born again).

To even peak my interest a church would have to be followed by signs, wonders and miracles for me to even give them a chance at teaching me the truth of the gospel. Not just one true believer who leads things. Scripture promises all true believers are followed by signs, wonders and miracles. If a believer doesn't have the power given by God how can I trust they are not a heretic?

 

I may not be able to be like Christ in the sense that I have already sinned and fallen short but I believe I can be like Christ in the sense of overcoming and winning the victory. There are some things I just don't know for I haven't experienced them yet but if scripture says something, for now, I desire to believe that truth is possible. The devil is a liar and scripture warns deception will come. For many will come saying He is the Christ and shall deceive many. Many today don't even look for the sign of a believer nowadays which is the presence of the power of God.

[BlindEyes]

On 1/12/2025 at 12:38 PM, Fran C said:

I agree with what @Tristen stated, just above my post.  Are these posts numbered BTW??

1 John 1:8  Does indeed state that we all have sin.  We are told to admit that we have sin.  Have not sinned is the same...it is speaking of past sins.

These past sins should be confessed,,,correct.

Future sins should also be confessed....correct again.

It's one and the same.  IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS....in this case both past and future....God will forgive us and cleanse us from all that could make us unright with God (unrighteousness).

I can't cut this up right...sorry. Re Wesley no. 10....he says to keep the sorrow for our past sins throughout our life.  I have to agree with this in that we will always carry with us our past sins and they will come to mind if they are serious sin.  However, I do believe that Jesus said  that we are to have a joyful life and it's difficult to experience joy if we always have our past sins in our mind.  So we should not allow them to weigh us down and we are to trust that God has forgiven them and continue forward.

 

I wanted to comment on 1 John 3:9 which I posted.  This is saying that we are not to PRACTICE sin.  There's a difference between committing a sin (which does have to be confessed to God) and LIVING IN SIN.  We also see this idea in 1 John 2:4...we are to keep His commandments.  What I think you're saying is that you mean to keep them perfectly because verse 5 states that if we keep His word we will be perfected.  There is no person alive that does not sin...that can be perfect in the sense that you're understanding it.

Paul states that we have an advocate with the Father. 1 John 2:1  If we could never sin again, we would not need an advocate.  If we could never sin again Jesus would not have stated that we are to confess our sins in John 20:23.

We do mature, as you've stated.  We should become better and better as we WALK WITH God.  But notice that it's a walk...we keep walking...we will not have our glorified bodies until we die.

We are to keep the Lord's commandments as best as we could, and when we fail we DO have an advocate with the Father.

You quoted Luke 6:40.  I've noticed that some take a particular idea found in scripture and then become obsessed with it.  We're human.  We're not Jesus.  I just pray you don't expect too much from yourself and then give up one day.  

 

I believe that some people may be greater than others but there is a difference between those who stumble into sin, making a mistake, a moment of weakness, compared to those who sin wilfully and habitually while abusing the grace of God. 

 

The below is what I believe to be possible.

 

Job 42:7
New American Bible (Revised Edition)
And after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My anger blazes against you and your two friends! You have not spoken rightly concerning me, as has my servant Job.

Job 23:10
New American Bible (Revised Edition)
Yet he knows my way; if he tested me, I should come forth like gold.

Job 10:6-8
New American Bible (Revised Edition)
That you seek for guilt in me and search after my sins, Even though you know that I am not wicked, and that none can deliver me out of your hand? Your hands have formed me and fashioned me; will you then turn and destroy me?

Job 27:1-6
New American Bible (Revised Edition)
Job took up his theme again and said: As God lives, who takes away my right, the Almighty, who has made my life bitter, So long as I still have life breath in me, the breath of God in my nostrils, My lips shall not speak falsehood, nor my tongue utter deceit! Far be it from me to account you right; till I die I will not renounce my innocence. My justice I maintain and I will not relinquish it; my heart does not reproach me for any of my days.

Job 32:1
New American Bible (Revised Edition)
Then the three men ceased to answer Job, because in his own eyes he was in the right.

Job 34:5-6
New American Bible (Revised Edition)
For Job has said, “I am innocent, but God has taken away what is my right. I declare the judgment on me to be a lie; my arrow-wound is incurable, sinless though I am.”


Job 9:19-21
New American Bible (Revised Edition)
If it be a question of strength, he is mighty; or of judgment, who will call him to account? Though I were right, my own mouth might condemn me; were I innocent, it might put me in the wrong. I am innocent, but I cannot know it; I despise my life.

Job 2:3
New American Bible (Revised Edition)
The Lord said to the satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him, blameless and upright, fearing God and avoiding evil. He still holds fast to his innocence although you incited me against him to ruin him for nothing.”

Job 7:20-21
New American Bible (Revised Edition)
If I sin, what do I do to you, O watcher of mortals? Why have you made me your target? Why should I be a burden for you? Why do you not pardon my offense, or take away my guilt? For soon I shall lie down in the dust; and should you seek me I shall be gone.

Job 33:8-9
New American Bible (Revised Edition)
But you have said in my hearing, as I listened to the sound of your words: I am clean, without transgression; I am innocent, there is no guilt in me.

Job 1:22
New American Bible (Revised Edition)
In all this Job did not sin, nor did he charge God with wrong.

Job 11:4
New American Bible (Revised Edition)
Shall you say: “My teaching is pure, and I am clean in your sight”?

Job 6:29-30
New American Bible (Revised Edition)
Think it over; let there be no injustice. Think it over; I still am right. Is there insincerity on my tongue, or cannot my taste discern falsehood?

Job 9:13-15
New American Bible (Revised Edition)
He is God and he does not relent; the helpers of Rahab bow beneath him. How then could I give him any answer, or choose out arguments against him! Even though I were right, I could not answer, but should rather beg for what was due me.

Job 29:14
New American Bible (Revised Edition)
I wore my righteousness like a garment; justice was my robe and my turban.

Job 16:16-17
New American Bible (Revised Edition)
My face is inflamed with weeping, darkness covers my eyes, Although my hands are free from violence, and my prayer sincere.

Edited January 14 by BlindEyes

[BlindEyes]

On 1/12/2025 at 1:17 PM, BornAgain490 said:

Actually, it's the unrepentant, unregenerate sinner that does not inherit the kingdom. 

When Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 6 and Galatians 5 about those people that will not inherit the kingdom, he ascribes to them a non-exhaustive list of sins.  We know it's a non-exhaustive list because Paul begins v.9 with "know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?"  The unrighteous are certainly those that commit the list of sins Paul cites in 1 Cor. 6, but also includes those works of the flesh that Paul cites in Galatians 5:19-21. 

After Paul cites those people that will not inherit the kingdom, Paul reminds the regenerated born again, who is born again in Christ:  "And such were some of you: but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6:11). 

So, we see that the distinction between the unrepentant unregenerate sinner vs. the repentant born again in Christ, is not the sin they've committed, because we all have sinned, but whether they are born again in Christ. 

Now that we are born again in Christ and have the indwelling Holy Spirit, we have the fruit of the Holy Spirit: "love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, moderation, self-control: against which there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23). 

Because we have the indwelling Holy Spirit and His fruit, we are a new creation in Christ, which God began in us and will continue to work in us until the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6).

 

I believe if someone commits a sin that does not inherit the kingdom they will not inherit the kingdom. God cannot lie. My understanding is if I commit idolatry, confess that sin then stop doing that sin before death then perhaps God will have mercy on me. If I commit the sin of idolatry but never stop doing it will I be forgiven? 

[BlindEyes]

12 hours ago, Michael37 said:

I'm tempted to change the title of the thread to "Why Grace Cannot Be Earned".

Some thread titles are framed as questions suggesting their authors are seeking answers to something they are trying to understand when in reality the intention of the author is to provide their opinion.

It is an irrefutable truth that if grace could be earned it wouldn't be grace, but recompense.

Just know that I'm not saying grace can be earned. Once one is guilty of committing a crime the forgiveness of that crime can never be earned. It is a gift of the one bestowing it. The thread title is the question and the post is my understanding. I was hoping someone would read my illustration and say whether or not it is the truth of things. Works cannot remove guilt but that doesn't mean works aren't a MUST.

[BlindEyes]

I'll change the name of the thread since people are talking about it.

[BlindEyes]

 

Revelation 22:14

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

Revelation 14:12

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

Revelation 12:17

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Edited January 13 by BlindEyes

[BlindEyes]

Notice how Revelation 9:20 mentions repentance then, "that they should not worship devils." I believe to repent means to mortify the dead work and stop commiting idolatry. If they do not cease from commiting idolatry and die as idolators, will God allow them into the kingdom?  As for works, works is more than feeding the hungry or doing good for ones neighbor. Sometimes works has to do with righteousness and dead works as in sin. I find it difficult determining when one refers to the law and when one refers to alms and good deeds.

 

Revelation 9:20

And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

 

 

Revelation 2:26

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations.

 

Revelation 3:8

Expanded Bible

 I know ·what you do [your works]. I have put an open door before you, which no one can close. I know you have little ·strength [power], but you have ·obeyed my teaching [L kept my word] and ·were not afraid to speak [L have not denied] my name.

 

Revelation 20:12

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

◄ 2041. ergon ►

Strong's Lexicon ergon: Work, deed, action, task, labor Original Word: ἔργον Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter Transliteration: ergon Pronunciation: ER-gon Phonetic Spelling: (er'-gon) Definition: Work, deed, action, task, labor Meaning: work, task, employment; a deed, action; that which is wrought or made, a work. Word Origin: Derived from a primary (but obsolete) root word ἔργω (ergo), meaning "to work." Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H4639 (מַעֲשֶׂה, ma'aseh): Work, deed, act - H4399 (מְלָאכָה, melakah): Work, occupation, craftsmanship Usage: The Greek word "ergon" is commonly used in the New Testament to denote work, deed, or action. It encompasses a wide range of activities, from physical labor to moral actions and spiritual deeds. The term is often used to describe the works of God, the deeds of individuals, and the actions that demonstrate faith. In a theological context, "ergon" can refer to both good works, which are the fruit of faith, and works of the law, which cannot justify a person before God. Cultural and Historical Background: In the Greco-Roman world, work was a significant aspect of daily life, with a clear distinction between manual labor and intellectual pursuits. The concept of "ergon" was integral to both Jewish and Greek thought, where it was associated with fulfilling one's duties and responsibilities. In Jewish tradition, good works were seen as expressions of obedience to God's commandments. In the early Christian context, "ergon" took on a deeper spiritual meaning, emphasizing the importance of faith manifested through actions.

Edited January 13 by BlindEyes

[BlindEyes]

 

Revelation 3:3

Expanded Bible

So ·do not forget [L remember] what you have received and heard. Obey it, and ·change your hearts and lives [repent]. ·So you must wake up, or [L But if you do not wake up,] I will come like a thief, and you will not know ·when [L at what hour] I will come ·to [upon; against] you.

 

 

 

◄ 1127. grégoreó ►

Strong's Lexicon grégoreó: To watch, to be vigilant, to stay awake Original Word: γρηγορέω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: grégoreó Pronunciation: gray-gor-eh'-o Phonetic Spelling: (gray-gor-yoo'-o) Definition: To watch, to be vigilant, to stay awake Meaning: (a) I am awake (in the night), watch, (b) I am watchful, on the alert, vigilant. Word Origin: Derived from the Greek root word ἐγείρω (egeirō), meaning "to awaken" or "to arouse from sleep." Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: The Hebrew equivalent often associated with the concept of watchfulness is שָׁמַר (shamar), Strong's Hebrew 8104, which means to keep, guard, or observe. Usage: The verb "grégoreó" primarily means to be watchful or vigilant. It conveys the idea of staying awake and being alert, both physically and spiritually. In the New Testament, it is often used in the context of spiritual readiness and moral alertness, urging believers to be attentive to their faith and the coming of the Lord. Cultural and Historical Background: In the Greco-Roman world, the concept of watchfulness was significant, especially in military and civic duties. Guards were expected to stay awake and alert to protect cities and camps from surprise attacks. This cultural understanding of vigilance is mirrored in the New Testament, where spiritual watchfulness is emphasized as a crucial aspect of Christian living. The early Christians lived in anticipation of Christ's return, and "grégoreó" was a call to remain steadfast and prepared.

[BlindEyes]

Revelations 19:8 - The codex sinaiticus says:

και εδοθη αυτη ϊ να περιβαληται βυϲ ϲινον λαμπρον καθαρον το γαρ βυϲ ϲινον τα δικαιω ματα των αγιων

 

When translated it says:

And she was given to be clothed in bright white linen. The linen represents the righteous acts of the saints.

 

Notice how it says righteous acts..

[BlindEyes]

 

These verses prove that perfection is attainable. Thing is, what is perfection? Whatever it is, to say it isn't possible is to lie..

 

Philippians 3:12-15

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.