Jews, Jewish Christians, and the New Covenant Era

[Dennis1209]

10 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Thank you Dennis. I did not really expect you to take the time to answer me. That was really thoughtful. It is not that I know a lot about it, as much as I think about it quite a bit. I do so  because I think it could be important concerning unsaved Jew's. How we think of them, and how we speak of them and to them. 

That circumcision was the covenant that they were brought out of Egypt, the Passover, unleavened bread, redemption of the firstborn, and inheriting the land. No matter exile, scattering them, they come back to the land. Even again now. Knowledge about it? No, just a lot of thinking about it is all. But that's just me.

Blessings to you..

It is always a pleasure to talk with you, Anne. I admire your scriptural knowledge and communication skills.

For some reason, our conversation brought back a bad memory, which is somewhat related to the OP topic, a life lesson, so to speak. Where do children learn, practice, and administer prejudice, hate, exclusion, and harassment, namely, for the Jews, their parents? With the following example of myself, it surely was not my parents, siblings, or grandparents who influenced any prejudice.

We had one boy in grade school, and I still remember his name, which I will omit for apparent reasons—a nice boy, a quiet boy, a Jewish boy, usually wearing his kippah most days. Every single day, he received snide remarks, was harassed, bullied, and always snubbed and isolated from school yard activities at recess and organized activities, only because he dressed nicely, was polite, wore his kippah, and was Jewish.

To my memory, I did not directly participate in making his life miserable or belittling him. Still, I condoned his treatment of being an outcast and did nothing to intercede on his behalf, most likely because I wanted to fit in with the majority crowd and be accepted.

Sometimes I unintentionally insert the wrong politically correct vocabulary, referring to race, God created only two races, the spiritual realm, and humanity.

His treatment haunted me and must have served as a wake-up call to feel so guilty, and a reminder of it, some sixty-five years ago. I cannot say I ever had a prejudice of my own toward any ethnicity of people, but many people I hung around with certainly did. In retrospect, I have wondered where and how they developed their prejudices, oppressing people and cultures different from their own.

Hindsight is 20/20. As I ponder my life, sins, and mistakes in my golden years, I can attribute it all to falling away from God, into the desires of my flesh, and temptations. I associate myself with others to be accepted, influencing my views, conduct, and behavior, setting aside the Christian morals and values taught and ingrained in me.

What we do or do not do as an individual or nation to God’s chosen people is serious business, with serious consequences, so much so that the Lord gives us a warning that has not or will never expire:

Genesis 12:3 (KJV) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

I have made many bad choices and decisions in my life. At one point, I thought, if only I could go back in time and correct stupid and arrogant Dennis, but that is impossible. So now I try my best to follow the apostle Paul’s admonishment:

Philippians 3:13-14 (KJV) Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, ¹⁴ I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJV) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

I have been seeking and experiencing Christian growth, albeit not as much or as fast as I would desire.

Sometimes, I confess too much private personal information, which embarrasses me. But it shows how the Lord has, is, and will work my three steps of Salvation (Past: I was saved. Present: I am being saved. Future: I will be saved and glorified).

Philippians 1:6 (KJV) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

[Anne2]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

It is always a pleasure to talk with you, Anne. I admire your scriptural knowledge and communication skills.

For some reason, our conversation brought back a bad memory, which is somewhat related to the OP topic, a life lesson, so to speak. Where do children learn, practice, and administer prejudice, hate, exclusion, and harassment, namely, for the Jews, their parents? With the following example of myself, it surely was not my parents, siblings, or grandparents who influenced any prejudice.

We had one boy in grade school, and I still remember his name, which I will omit for apparent reasons—a nice boy, a quiet boy, a Jewish boy, usually wearing his kippah most days. Every single day, he received snide remarks, was harassed, bullied, and always snubbed and isolated from school yard activities at recess and organized activities, only because he dressed nicely, was polite, wore his kippah, and was Jewish.

To my memory, I did not directly participate in making his life miserable or belittling him. Still, I condoned his treatment of being an outcast and did nothing to intercede on his behalf, most likely because I wanted to fit in with the majority crowd and be accepted.

Sometimes I unintentionally insert the wrong politically correct vocabulary, referring to race, God created only two races, the spiritual realm, and humanity.

His treatment haunted me and must have served as a wake-up call to feel so guilty, and a reminder of it, some sixty-five years ago. I cannot say I ever had a prejudice of my own toward any ethnicity of people, but many people I hung around with certainly did. In retrospect, I have wondered where and how they developed their prejudices, oppressing people and cultures different from their own.

Hindsight is 20/20. As I ponder my life, sins, and mistakes in my golden years, I can attribute it all to falling away from God, into the desires of my flesh, and temptations. I associate myself with others to be accepted, influencing my views, conduct, and behavior, setting aside the Christian morals and values taught and ingrained in me.

What we do or do not do as an individual or nation to God’s chosen people is serious business, with serious consequences, so much so that the Lord gives us a warning that has not or will never expire:

Genesis 12:3 (KJV) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

I have made many bad choices and decisions in my life. At one point, I thought, if only I could go back in time and correct stupid and arrogant Dennis, but that is impossible. So now I try my best to follow the apostle Paul’s admonishment:

Philippians 3:13-14 (KJV) Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, ¹⁴ I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJV) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

I have been seeking and experiencing Christian growth, albeit not as much or as fast as I would desire.

Sometimes, I confess too much private personal information, which embarrasses me. But it shows how the Lord has, is, and will work my three steps of Salvation (Past: I was saved. Present: I am being saved. Future: I will be saved and glorified).

Philippians 1:6 (KJV) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

I hope you did not misunderstand anything I said about Race Dennis. My intent with that is IF we as believers, (the Church) were to focus on

Joh 7:22  Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
Ro 11:28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

They will consider it as well, concerning the gospel and our faith in messiah?

So at least as far as we are concerned we see them as loved and held, not by the law of Moses but his love to them in that covenant made with their fathers.

Knowing this

Not made with their fathers...

Deut 5:2  The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3  The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
As paul says..

Ro 4:13  For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Ro 4:14  For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
 

Ga 3:12  And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Partly blinded

The part they do keep faith, is in circumcision or being Jew's despite all the pain.

Therefore I don't know how it is going to unfold but this imo still holds in their faith which is in part.

De 7:8  But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
 

It will be done for them. But not by the law of works. As it was never made with their fathers.

Edited Monday at 02:16 PM by Anne2

[jeremiah1five]

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.           Gen. 12:3.

"In thee" refers to Abraham's seed. It is his family born from him that these families through relation with Abraham who will be blessed. This does not refer to non-Hebrew Gentiles for we know it is biologically for two Hebrew parents to birth a non-Hebrew child (Isaac.) But then Abraham's family line diverges as we move along these chapters. Ishmael is the seed of Abraham, but he marries an Egyptian and now Abraham's Hebrew seed becomes mixed. Hagar, Ishmael's mother is Egyptian and Ishmael marries an Egyptian. But no matter the dilution of Ishamel's family line he and they are still Abraham's seed. They are not non-Hebrew but mixed heritage Hebrew. Esau himself had multiple wives of Hittite descent, but Esau is still the seed of Abraham. What this all comes down to is that all the families that are to be blessed are still the seed of Abraham. God says, "in thee [thy seed] shall all the [Abraham] families of the earth be blessed." This does not refer to non-Hebrew Gentiles. 

In Genesis chapters 12, 15, and 17 God repeats Himself several times when mentioning this covenant by referring to Abraham's seed. This covenant that Isaac inherited and Jacob inherited are Abraham's Hebrew seed and mixed heritage Hebrew seed. It does not refer to non-Hebrew Gentiles. When God repeats Himself, He is showing us the significance that this covenant is between God, Abram the Hebrew and his Hebrew seed - mixed heritage Hebrews included, but not non-Hebrew Gentiles. This also applies to the word "nations that will "come out of thee" [Abraham.]

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen. 17:5–7.

The language is expressive. God repeats Himself several times this covenant and the promises are between God, Abraham, and Abraham's seed. God repeats Himself again with Sarah:

16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. Gen. 17:16.

"Nations" and "kings" and "all families of the earth" are still Abraham's biological seed and mixed heritage seed, but there is no mention of non-Hebrew Gentiles included in this covenant of promises. 

 

 

 

 

[jeremiah1five]

On 5/12/2025 at 6:47 AM, Anne2 said:

I hope you did not misunderstand anything I said about Race Dennis. My intent with that is IF we as believers, (the Church) were to focus on

Joh 7:22  Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
Ro 11:28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

They will consider it as well, concerning the gospel and our faith in messiah?

So at least as far as we are concerned we see them as loved and held, not by the law of Moses but his love to them in that covenant made with their fathers.

Knowing this

Not made with their fathers...

Deut 5:2  The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3  The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
As paul says..

Ro 4:13  For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Ro 4:14  For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
 

Ga 3:12  And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Partly blinded

The part they do keep faith, is in circumcision or being Jew's despite all the pain.

Therefore I don't know how it is going to unfold but this imo still holds in their faith which is in part.

De 7:8  But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
 

It will be done for them. But not by the law of works. As it was never made with their fathers.

When a Jew is born-again the Law of Moses/God takes on a different dynamic. Every born-again Hebrew/Jew and mixed heritage Hebrew are justified by God, that is, God declares the person and persons as "Not Guilty!" but "not guilty of what? They are not guilty of transgressing God's Law. Israel has been completely absolved of any and all sins according to the work of Jesus Christ on His cross. With the advent of the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL (Joel), Israel had entered the New Covenant era. ALL Israel's sin has been forgiven, and God remembers their sin no more. 

      For I will forgive their iniquity,
      And I will remember their sin no more. Jeremiah 31:34.

Jesus Christ had paid the penalty for the sin of God's covenant people (Israel) and every Hebrew/Jew and mixed heritage Hebrew has been declared, "Not Guilty!" Christ's righteousness has been imputed to them effectively when one becomes born-again in real time and absolved of all sin on the cross. 

 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we [Jews] might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:3–5.

 

 

 

[Luther]

8 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

When a Jew is born-again the Law of Moses/God takes on a different dynamic. Every born-again Hebrew/Jew and mixed heritage Hebrew are justified by God, that is, God declares the person and persons as "Not Guilty!" but "not guilty of what? They are not guilty of transgressing God's Law. Israel has been completely absolved of any and all sins according to the work of Jesus Christ on His cross. With the advent of the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL (Joel), Israel had entered the New Covenant era. ALL Israel's sin has been forgiven, and God remembers their sin no more. 

      For I will forgive their iniquity,
      And I will remember their sin no more. Jeremiah 31:34.

Jesus Christ had paid the penalty for the sin of God's covenant people (Israel) and every Hebrew/Jew and mixed heritage Hebrew has been declared, "Not Guilty!" Christ's righteousness has been imputed to them effectively when one becomes born-again in real time and absolved of all sin on the cross. 

 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we [Jews] might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:3–5.

 

 

 

Question: In your system of belief, where do the Gentiles fit in with God's salvation plan? You never seem to mention them when it comes to being born again. Just curious.

[jeremiah1five]

5 hours ago, Luther said:

Question: In your system of belief, where do the Gentiles fit in with God's salvation plan? You never seem to mention them when it comes to being born again. Just curious.

I believe God is Sovereign over all creation. I also believe there is only One will and that will is God's will. I also believe everything in creation is the result of God creating 'it' including evil. In Genesis it says God made a covenant with Abram the Hebrew and with his seed. The identity of "nations" and "kings" and "in thee families of the earth would be blessed" can only refer to Abraham's seed. Strong defines the word "nations" as "masses" as in masses of people (or animals.) It does not mean "Gentile" at this time. The term "Gentile" would come later to identify anyone who is not Hebrew. Ishmael and Esau may not have possessed the inheritance but they and their descendants ("nations") were blessed by God by virtue of being Abraham's seed. God has always had an obedient people among the Adamites. Seth's family ("sons of God") in Genesis 4 & 6 record a people that "call upon the LORD" which does not mean people "called" upon the LORD as if you were to call me from across the street, but a term that means/refers to worship for no one can approach unto God except God chooses them which implies relationship (Ps. 65:4.) In time Abraham's seed became mixed with non-Hebrews, Gentiles if you prefer.

As the twelve tribes of Jacob/Israel became disobedient and involved into false gods and worship of idols God sent prophets to warn the tribes of both kingdoms of punishment from God. First, God used the Assyrians and then later the Babylonians. This conquering of His people led to their exile into Gentile lands. The scattering of God's people was an act of God, and as God knows all things, knew His people in exile would mingle with Gentiles and mixed births would come into being. For approximately 29-35 generations of Hebrews grew up and most assimilated into Gentile culture. In 522 BC. Nehemiah (and Ezra) was given permission to return to their homeland, and it says a remnant did return. I count a remnant between 5-10% of the whole number. If one million Hebrews were in Gentile lands and five percent returned to Israel, then that comes up to 50,000 Hebrews going back to Israel. That's an accurate number. 

By the time Jesus was born there existed "Samaritans", which by most are the mixed births between Hebrews and Gentiles, with the Hebrews being mostly of the ten northern tribes. It was the two southern kingdom tribes that were conquered by Babylon and a majority of the remnant that returned to Israel were of Judah and Benjamin tribes. Jesus was prophesied to Israel and Jesus came manifesting Himself (John 1:31) to Israel. Jesus Himself said He was "sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel" and in His travels taught the Hebrew people from out of their Law. When Jesus sent the twelve out, He sent them to Israel and forbade them from going into Gentile lands. When Jesus was crucified, He sacrificed Himself for those in covenant with God, that is, the Hebrew people who were under the Law. When Jesus resurrected, He sent His eleven disciples into Gentile lands where the majority of Hebrews lived with a good news message: God has kept His Promise(s) These Hebrews knew nothing of Jesus as their Messiah and King. They were oblivious to the events taking place in Jerusalem. At the last Passover in the upper room Jesus instituted a New Covenant/Testament which came into being with the advent of the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL (Joel) and Jesus began to build His Church and it was first populated by three thousand Hebrews/Jews of which many came to Jerusalem from Gentile locations to observe the Feast of Harvest. They returned to their homes and synagogues with an outline of Peter's sermon and their experience with the Holy Spirit. In the beginning they were welcomed into their synagogues but in time the Jews could not reconcile the coming of their Deliverer dying on a tree. It was their stumbling block and soon Jewish Christians were first excommunicated from their synagogues and later persecuted by Jews. By the time brought Saul to Antioch Jewish Christianity was in full swing. God used Saul who was a rabbi and a Pharisee to uncover from their Scripture the New Covenant era Israel found herself in. And Saul did this through letter writing and personal testimony. 

Having said all that, God's promises to Abraham and later the children of Israel who are his seed including mixed heritage Hebrews are the people to whom God's salvation and redemption is made. The LORD knows them that are His and if a person has Abraham's DNA - no matter the dilution - they are covered by the salvation of the LORD. This includes mixed heritage Hebrews. Non-Hebrew Gentiles got nothing coming to them of the LORD.

      17       All nations before him are as nothing;
      And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity. Isaiah 40:17.

Those who presume themselves Gentile or non-Hebrew and claim they are born again by the Holy Spirit by virtue of the covenant God made with Abraham and his seed, must have at least one Hebrew parent in their ancestry they do not know about. Why do I say this? Because God made covenant with Abraham and his seed and everyone who believes themselves Gentile would have to have a Hebrew parent in their ancestry. One more thing, Samaritans are the descendants of the ten northern kingdom tribes and Gentiles, but where in the New Testament are the offspring of the two southern kingdom tribes and Gentiles. What are they called and where are they identified in the New Testament? 

My position is that they are the "Gentiles" mentioned in the New Testament. And I have my reasons for this. One is the fact that there were Hebrews - over a million - that grew up, married and had children, and died for many, many generations and that the message God used men to herald to them resulted in many conversions to Christ. So, how do you witness or teach a Hebrew people that grew up as Gentiles heavily influenced by Greek culture? Well, some Jews wanted to circumcise them. This issue resulted in the Jerusalem Council of AD 50 (Acts 15.) What was finally decided? Their instruction was for these mixed heritage Hebrews to obey four aspects of the Law of Moses, and they would "fare well." Saul and the apostles as well as Jewish Christians in Israel/Jerusalem were held in high esteem by the Jews. Thus, the issue of circumcising mixed heritage Hebrews who became born-again was resolved. I find it inconceivable that any apostle or elder (and there were elders of the Sanhedrin included), would seek to circumcise a naturalized non-Hebrew Gentile nor to compel them to obey the Law of Moses. There would be riots and if the apostles and elders sought to have this done to non-Hebrew Gentiles there would be riots of the people and the apostles and elders would not be held in high esteem. But nothing of the sort occurred. When AD 70 came around God again scattered His people into Gentile lands and Rome made laws that forbade Jews to return to their homeland (Jerusalem.) God again scattered His people in Europe in Nazi Germany of the 1930s-40s.

I couldn't just answer you with a nay or yea but needed to explain the things I know and why I believe as I do. When Jesus returns the Hebrew people including mixed heritage will occupy the land promised them of God and will evict all non-Hebrews from the Promised Land. This leaves non-Hebrew Gentiles who survive Armageddon to occupy everywhere else (Zechariah, Revelation.) And then the real end shall come (Revelation 20:7-9.)

[Anne2]

15 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

When a Jew is born-again the Law of Moses/God takes on a different dynamic.

Circumcision of the heart

15 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

Every born-again Hebrew/Jew and mixed heritage Hebrew are justified by God, that is, God declares the person and persons as "Not Guilty!" but "not guilty of what?

Breaking the covenant God made with them through Moses. Which Gentiles are not judged by, and Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not have.

16 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

Israel has been completely absolved of any and all sins according to the work of Jesus Christ on His cross. With the advent of the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL (Joel), Israel had entered the New Covenant era. ALL Israel's sin has been forgiven, and God remembers their sin no more. 

As are all circumcised in the heart

 

16 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we [Jews] might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:3–5.

Amen, they confessed their sin being baptized of John. to escape the wrath that fell in 70 AD

[Luther]

1 hour ago, jeremiah1five said:

I believe God is Sovereign over all creation. I also believe there is only One will and that will is God's will. I also believe everything in creation is the result of God creating 'it' including evil. In Genesis it says God made a covenant with Abram the Hebrew and with his seed. The identity of "nations" and "kings" and "in thee families of the earth would be blessed" can only refer to Abraham's seed. Strong defines the word "nations" as "masses" as in masses of people (or animals.) It does not mean "Gentile" at this time. The term "Gentile" would come later to identify anyone who is not Hebrew. Ishmael and Esau may not have possessed the inheritance but they and their descendants ("nations") were blessed by God by virtue of being Abraham's seed. God has always had an obedient people among the Adamites. Seth's family ("sons of God") in Genesis 4 & 6 record a people that "call upon the LORD" which does not mean people "called" upon the LORD as if you were to call me from across the street, but a term that means/refers to worship for no one can approach unto God except God chooses them which implies relationship (Ps. 65:4.) In time Abraham's seed became mixed with non-Hebrews, Gentiles if you prefer.

As the twelve tribes of Jacob/Israel became disobedient and involved into false gods and worship of idols God sent prophets to warn the tribes of both kingdoms of punishment from God. First, God used the Assyrians and then later the Babylonians. This conquering of His people led to their exile into Gentile lands. The scattering of God's people was an act of God, and as God knows all things, knew His people in exile would mingle with Gentiles and mixed births would come into being. For approximately 29-35 generations of Hebrews grew up and most assimilated into Gentile culture. In 522 BC. Nehemiah (and Ezra) was given permission to return to their homeland, and it says a remnant did return. I count a remnant between 5-10% of the whole number. If one million Hebrews were in Gentile lands and five percent returned to Israel, then that comes up to 50,000 Hebrews going back to Israel. That's an accurate number. 

By the time Jesus was born there existed "Samaritans", which by most are the mixed births between Hebrews and Gentiles, with the Hebrews being mostly of the ten northern tribes. It was the two southern kingdom tribes that were conquered by Babylon and a majority of the remnant that returned to Israel were of Judah and Benjamin tribes. Jesus was prophesied to Israel and Jesus came manifesting Himself (John 1:31) to Israel. Jesus Himself said He was "sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel" and in His travels taught the Hebrew people from out of their Law. When Jesus sent the twelve out, He sent them to Israel and forbade them from going into Gentile lands. When Jesus was crucified, He sacrificed Himself for those in covenant with God, that is, the Hebrew people who were under the Law. When Jesus resurrected, He sent His eleven disciples into Gentile lands where the majority of Hebrews lived with a good news message: God has kept His Promise(s) These Hebrews knew nothing of Jesus as their Messiah and King. They were oblivious to the events taking place in Jerusalem. At the last Passover in the upper room Jesus instituted a New Covenant/Testament which came into being with the advent of the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL (Joel) and Jesus began to build His Church and it was first populated by three thousand Hebrews/Jews of which many came to Jerusalem from Gentile locations to observe the Feast of Harvest. They returned to their homes and synagogues with an outline of Peter's sermon and their experience with the Holy Spirit. In the beginning they were welcomed into their synagogues but in time the Jews could not reconcile the coming of their Deliverer dying on a tree. It was their stumbling block and soon Jewish Christians were first excommunicated from their synagogues and later persecuted by Jews. By the time brought Saul to Antioch Jewish Christianity was in full swing. God used Saul who was a rabbi and a Pharisee to uncover from their Scripture the New Covenant era Israel found herself in. And Saul did this through letter writing and personal testimony. 

Having said all that, God's promises to Abraham and later the children of Israel who are his seed including mixed heritage Hebrews are the people to whom God's salvation and redemption is made. The LORD knows them that are His and if a person has Abraham's DNA - no matter the dilution - they are covered by the salvation of the LORD. This includes mixed heritage Hebrews. Non-Hebrew Gentiles got nothing coming to them of the LORD.

      17       All nations before him are as nothing;
      And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity. Isaiah 40:17.

Those who presume themselves Gentile or non-Hebrew and claim they are born again by the Holy Spirit by virtue of the covenant God made with Abraham and his seed, must have at least one Hebrew parent in their ancestry they do not know about. Why do I say this? Because God made covenant with Abraham and his seed and everyone who believes themselves Gentile would have to have a Hebrew parent in their ancestry. One more thing, Samaritans are the descendants of the ten northern kingdom tribes and Gentiles, but where in the New Testament are the offspring of the two southern kingdom tribes and Gentiles. What are they called and where are they identified in the New Testament? 

My position is that they are the "Gentiles" mentioned in the New Testament. And I have my reasons for this. One is the fact that there were Hebrews - over a million - that grew up, married and had children, and died for many, many generations and that the message God used men to herald to them resulted in many conversions to Christ. So, how do you witness or teach a Hebrew people that grew up as Gentiles heavily influenced by Greek culture? Well, some Jews wanted to circumcise them. This issue resulted in the Jerusalem Council of AD 50 (Acts 15.) What was finally decided? Their instruction was for these mixed heritage Hebrews to obey four aspects of the Law of Moses, and they would "fare well." Saul and the apostles as well as Jewish Christians in Israel/Jerusalem were held in high esteem by the Jews. Thus, the issue of circumcising mixed heritage Hebrews who became born-again was resolved. I find it inconceivable that any apostle or elder (and there were elders of the Sanhedrin included), would seek to circumcise a naturalized non-Hebrew Gentile nor to compel them to obey the Law of Moses. There would be riots and if the apostles and elders sought to have this done to non-Hebrew Gentiles there would be riots of the people and the apostles and elders would not be held in high esteem. But nothing of the sort occurred. When AD 70 came around God again scattered His people into Gentile lands and Rome made laws that forbade Jews to return to their homeland (Jerusalem.) God again scattered His people in Europe in Nazi Germany of the 1930s-40s.

I couldn't just answer you with a nay or yea but needed to explain the things I know and why I believe as I do. When Jesus returns the Hebrew people including mixed heritage will occupy the land promised them of God and will evict all non-Hebrews from the Promised Land. This leaves non-Hebrew Gentiles who survive Armageddon to occupy everywhere else (Zechariah, Revelation.) And then the real end shall come (Revelation 20:7-9.)

Well all I can say is I thank God that He doesn't believe like you do. Probably 99% of the people in this forum are Christians of non-jewish descent.

In a roundabout way you are saying that none of us are saved.

Acts 13:46 KJV
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Edited yesterday at 01:20 AM by Luther
added a verse.

[jeremiah1five]

6 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Circumcision of the heart

That's not what I meant when I said, 'to the born-again Hebrew the Law takes on a different dynamic.'

Yes, they undergo a "circumcision of the heart" which means a circumcision of a life, since in the Old Testament the "heart" at times depending on the context is used interchangeably with life. The actual organ called the heart is oblivious of salvation except when Christ returns and our bodies are changed in the twinkle of an eye. Jesus does not reside in anyone's heart, but the Holy Spirit does inhabit/dwell in a person's life. 

The Law was written on stone during the time of Moses. When a person is born-again God creates a new human spirit in the person to go along with the body and soul, and the person is restored to trinity of body, soul, and human spirit. In effect the person with a newly created human spirit is now capable of processing spiritual phenomenon, such as the Presence of the Holy Spirit, operation of the spiritual gifts, and to determine the source of spiritual phenomenon when manifested. The gift of discerning of spirits allows the one gifted to discern the spirit of good angels, the spirit of man, and the Spirit of God. The angels that sinned are presently 'locked up' and awaiting judgment as revealed by Peter (2 Pet. 2:4), Isaiah, and Jude. They were 'locked up' before God created man. 

Jeremiah prophesied that the New Covenant comes with an act of God putting His Law in their inward parts. This would be the Law God gave Moses for the children of Israel. With the Law written in a believer's "heart" that person is now guided in obeying the Law of Moses from within, and when one sins the Holy Spirit convicts that person from within just as the Law convicted a person from without. Another thing is the identity of the Law in the Old Testament. The Law is type and shadow of the Holy Spirit. It is He whom the LORD will put in their 'inward parts' to lead and guide the believer from within, for lo, the kingdom of God (Christ Himself) is within you."

Saul said, "the Law is spiritual." The reason why the "letter killeth" was because men for a time before spiritual birth was flesh with a soul. But now that a person becomes born-again, they become spiritual beings, and the Law cannot 'touch' that person. Now, we've heard it said that Christ came and fulfilled the Law and that the Law was nailed to His cross, but in understanding this they fail to also grasp that as Jesus Christ was resurrected, so, too, was the Law resurrected as well. Christ accomplished perfect obedience to the Law and by being put in our inward parts Christ who dwells within a believer God sees that person who was also imputed His righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21), as also perfectly obeying the Law in everything and that's because God looks at what Christ accomplished on the cross and sees us justified and "Not Guilty!" of transgressing the Law. But still, when we sin the Holy Spirit who is the Law Personified deals with a person from within to convict or to absolve the person so that there is no condemnation any more upon that person. 

In the New Covenant (New Testament) Jews that became born-again continued to obey the Law as spiritual beings before God. Saul, who was a rabbi and Pharisee remained a rabbi and Pharisee, and he also continued to obey the Law throughout his life. And he was held in high regard for it among the Jews in general. The Law consisted of the Ceremonial Law, the Social Law, and the Moral Law. A born-again believer under the Law would seek to understand the spiritual aspect of any Law and obey/apply it accordingly. In the desert at the time of the Tabernacle God taught the twelve tribes about love. The instruction and command are found in Leviticus. But many Christians abuse God's instruction through their ignorance and are found to misuse love, even a Holy Love given of God to the believer.

6 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Breaking the covenant God made with them through Moses. Which Gentiles are not judged by, and Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not have.

Before the Mosaic Law given at Mount Sinai Hebrews were guided by Scripture and the lessons found there, even as the Scripture was being added to with Moses (Pentateuch) and the prophets. The Psalms also contained God's instruction to His people. Through word of mouth the men and women were guided by God and God's will was in time disseminated and the people lived their lives. How many altars did Abraham build? How many did Isaac, and etc.?

6 hours ago, Anne2 said:

As are all circumcised in the heart

Israel has been completely absolved of any and all sins according to the work of Jesus Christ on His cross. With the advent of the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL (Joel), Israel had entered the New Covenant era. ALL Israel's sin has been forgiven, and God remembers their sin no more. 

6 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Amen, they confessed their sin being baptized of John. to escape the wrath that fell in 70 AD

I am still working through whether what happened eventually with the Romans (AD 70) was a judgment against Israel. After all, God through Jesus Christ forgave Israel their sins and remembered their sin no more, so if this was true - and it is - then upon what does God judge Israel if Christ has atoned their sins - even some of their involvement in Jesus' crucifixion. God forgave them of all their sins.

      For I will forgive their iniquity,
      And I will remember their sin no more. Jeremiah 31:34.

If this be true, then what happened with the Romans (AD 70) cannot be judgment for sin since Christ already paid the penalty for their sins which was death.

And resurrected.

There can be no wrath for there was no sin.

Edited yesterday at 06:11 AM by jeremiah1five

[jeremiah1five]

8 hours ago, Luther said:

Well all I can say is I thank God that He doesn't believe like you do. Probably 99% of the people in this forum are Christians of non-jewish descent.

In a roundabout way you are saying that none of us are saved.

Acts 13:46 KJV
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

The interesting thing is that my position cannot be proved, but neither can it be disproved.

So, unless one can show me in the Hebrew Scripture (Law, Psalms, and Prophets) where God made a covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles, then adding to the Bible after the fact cannot have Scriptural support. If God did make a covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles, then what was his name and where in the Hebrew Scripture is it described or recorded? This is not an unreasonable request. We must all see the same Jesus, we must all say the same thing as God. To do otherwise is to oppose Him.