tsth Posted December 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 12, 2007 If a person is claiming to be a Christian, yet the works are non-existent, (he's living as the lost), is he really saved? We should know them by their fruits/works, right? (And I'm not just talking about good deeds. I'm talking about the outward workings of a life lived in obedience to God, in ALL things, of life.) The works MUST align with the belief, unless there is NO REAL BELIEF, then there are no real works. Then you just have bad fruit, that will be burnt up in the fire. You cannot have bad fruit, no works, and be a true believer. It's not compatible with the instruction of The Word. In His Love, Suzane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraught Posted December 12, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,741 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 28 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/30/1959 Share Posted December 12, 2007 to me, the best thing about a forum is that we can share our insights and growth from our own experiences. in this spirit of sharing, most of the time i can clearly see the difference between works & fruit in my own life. let's say for example, i am exercising patience. (a): if it's in a situation where i have no choice, then it's neither works nor fruit. (b): if it's in a situation where i could get annoyed but i choose not to because it's the right thing to do and it makes me feel good about myself, it's works. ©: if it happens automatically because i recognize that these are other human beings i'm dealing with and i empathize with their shortcomings, giving them the benefit of the doubt because who knows what they've had to deal with this week, then it's fruit. i think this is a good example to use because (b) and © are so closely related. they are a matter of motive. to sum up, i see fruit as more of a character issue. we become regenerated into the kind of person who ________ (fill in the blanks). the whole issue may be easier to understand if you look at the bad side of it. i could stop at (b). who would know? i would still be admired as a patient person. i would enjoy the high i get from feeling good about myself. i would be performing a whole lot of good works. this would not be, however, 'shedding the love of Christ abroad'. it would be glorifying self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted December 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 12, 2007 I agree Fraught. It is what is born "out of the heart", that proves as real fruit/works. That is why the heart constitutes the actions that will EVENTUALLY come out. Even if one is "pretending", he normally will go back to what his heart desires. Matthew 12:33 "Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. Luke 6:43 "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks. 46 "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? 47 I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49 But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete." 2 Peter 2:18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity--for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 If a person is claiming to be a Christian, yet the works are non-existent, (he's living as the lost), is he really saved? We should know them by their fruits/works, right? (And I'm not just talking about good deeds. I'm talking about the outward workings of a life lived in obedience to God, in ALL things, of life.) The works MUST align with the belief, unless there is NO REAL BELIEF, then there are no real works. Then you just have bad fruit, that will be burnt up in the fire. You cannot have bad fruit, no works, and be a true believer. It's not compatible with the instruction of The Word. In His Love, Suzane This really has to be examined a case-by-case basis. I mean we basically encounter people rather sporacially. We see "snapshots" of their lives and this is really insufficient to make such a judgement call. It is one thing if a person is living proud in unrepentant sin and has never shown since they were saved, any change of heart or attitude. Those people need to rexamine the authenticity of their claim to be a Christian. People also fall due to times of discouragement. We need to be compassionate without compromising the truth when it comes to issues like this. Just because a person goes through a season of rebellion because they are angry with God over the death of a spouse, or child or some other tragedy in their life, does not mean they are not saved. It means they are in a great deal of pain and are reacting irrationally to that pain, and they more than ever need our love, patience and the understanding while at the same time encouraging them in the truth and bringing them to the realization that God still loves them so that they will repent and turn back to the Lord. The Bible says that it is the goodness of God that leads man to repentance. The fact is many of us Christians have bad fruit and we need to be honest about that. All of us fall short from time to time, and bad fruit is always the result of that. That does not necessarily mean we are not saved. I don't see where we can make blanket assertions that "bad fruit = unsaved." Nothing we do takes Jesus by surprise. Jesus knew when He saved us, all of the times we would let Him down in the future and He saved us knowing how we would sin. He loves even when we sin and is not going to throw us away when we screw up. That is why we have grace. It does not remove our responsibility to live holy lives, but it simply means that when we do fail, He is there to pick us up and help us start over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted December 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.21 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted December 12, 2007 As I read the past few posts, I see that you are trying to compare a true Christian with a nonbeliever. If someone claims to be a Christian and there is no change, then it is very possible that they are not a Christian in the first place. Their "conversion" could of been a head conversion, not a heart conversion. A true Christian, one that has accepted Christ into their heart and has allowed the Holy Spirit to change them, will eventually bear fruit that will be obvious. It might take a little while before we see them, but we will see them. Even the keeper allowed the tree not to bear fruit for three years before he considered cutting it down. Remember, we can rush the hand of God. He works in His timing, not ours, so if we see a Brother or Sister that is not bearing fruit, we need to pray and be patient. Love In Christ, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted December 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 12, 2007 As I read the past few posts, I see that you are trying to compare a true Christian with a nonbeliever. If someone claims to be a Christian and there is no change, then it is very possible that they are not a Christian in the first place. Their "conversion" could of been a head conversion, not a heart conversion. A true Christian, one that has accepted Christ into their heart and has allowed the Holy Spirit to change them, will eventually bear fruit that will be obvious. It might take a little while before we see them, but we will see them. Even the keeper allowed the tree not to bear fruit for three years before he considered cutting it down. Remember, we can rush the hand of God. He works in His timing, not ours, so if we see a Brother or Sister that is not bearing fruit, we need to pray and be patient. Love In Christ, Alan Yes, this is what I'm talking about. I'm speaking of the obvious, that for some reason has not been addressed within the church itself. We can look at our nation and the practices(works) of our society as a whole, and it testifies to the fact that we are NOT as Christian as we claim to be. And why won't the church acknowledge this and start talking about it? It's like it's our dirty little secret that we're not willing to acknowledge. And the reason we won't acknowledge it is because we don't want to get into any kind of specifics. The resentment over these threads bears witness to that. We are barely even ABLE to talk about works/fruits, without contentions. And I don't understand why? We would rather continue on trying to justify our broken down vineyards, and why they might be in the condition they're in, rather than dealing with what's underneath.....the heart and the true salvation experience of being "reborn/a new creation". In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patricia1 Posted December 12, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,858 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/24/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/23/1957 Share Posted December 12, 2007 There have been times Suzanne in my life when I was back on the potters wheel, or being pruned where my fruit was not proper for the time until new fruit grew. The fruit of someone first saved is different than the fruit of someone walking with Christ a long time.(hopefully) But I have seen christians standing still in thier walks or Churches who want no change to occur. They do not seek to walk further... Are they still christians one may ask. God help those who are lukewarm in this way, and all of us to not allow this to happen in our lives. Ther was a daughter of a pastor well into her thirties, who sang and played piano. She was always up on the podium. She appeares to be a christian. Knew when to praise His name. Knew when to lift her hands. A evangelist visited the church and at the end of the preaching she tearfully went up to accept the Lord Jesus as her Savior. Shocked everyone including her parents. It had never occurred to her until that very moment that she was not saved!!!! She had good works, her fruit appeared decent and yet looked what happened. How could this be? As you say it has to to with realationship and heart. It is not the works of man...it is the working of God within us to produce what God wills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tah Posted December 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,131 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/12/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted December 12, 2007 I have nothing to add to this thread just a thank you for the topic and all the posts.. I have been wanting to see a thread on the subject of "bring forth fruit meet for repentance" the last few days... I have been blessed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted December 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 12, 2007 There have been times Suzanne in my life when I was back on the potters wheel, or being pruned where my fruit was not proper for the time until new fruit grew. The fruit of someone first saved is different than the fruit of someone walking with Christ a long time.(hopefully) But I have seen christians standing still in thier walks or Churches who want no change to occur. They do not seek to walk further... Are they still christians one may ask. God help those who are lukewarm in this way, and all of us to not allow this to happen in our lives. Ther was a daughter of a pastor well into her thirties, who sang and played piano. She was always up on the podium. She appeares to be a christian. Knew when to praise His name. Knew when to lift her hands. A evangelist visited the church and at the end of the preaching she tearfully went up to accept the Lord Jesus as her Savior. Shocked everyone including her parents. It had never occurred to her until that very moment that she was not saved!!!! She had good works, her fruit appeared decent and yet looked what happened. How could this be? As you say it has to to with realationship and heart. It is not the works of man...it is the working of God within us to produce what God wills. Thank the Lord, for that evangelist, who continues to preach the Truth! Romans 10:14...................And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" But, there will still be some who will not receive it: 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 21 But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people." In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted December 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted December 12, 2007 The fact is many of us Christians have bad fruit and we need to be honest about that. All of us fall short from time to time, and bad fruit is always the result of that. That does not necessarily mean we are not saved. I don't see where we can make blanket assertions that "bad fruit = unsaved." Nothing we do takes Jesus by surprise. Jesus knew when He saved us, all of the times we would let Him down in the future and He saved us knowing how we would sin. He loves even when we sin and is not going to throw us away when we screw up. That is why we have grace. It does not remove our responsibility to live holy lives, but it simply means that when we do fail, He is there to pick us up and help us start over. Shalom Shiloh, Eaxactly!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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