Sound Doctrine Based On God's Word

[Mark; Christ made.]

God bless you, believers, 

... with faith, strength, protection, providence, consolation, correction, communion, Christian fellowship, Holy Spirit fruit, love, light and power from the LORD, in Jesus Christ's holy name.  I love you.  You are loved.  Bless you.

I have been searching scriptures for sound doctrine answers to my questions about the concepts of rapture timing referred to as 'pre, mid or post tribulation (trib) rapture' and salvation security or 'once saved always saved.'  After reading a bit of Hebrews, Matthew 24 and the end of Revelation, I fear that someone is able to walk away or even disqualify themselves from their faith and that the rapture looks to be after the great tribulation.  I will provide some scriptures below to suggest why it looks that way.  What do you think?  Please pray for Holy Spirit discernment, revelation, clarity, wisdom and sound doctrine based on God's first and last word.  Thanks for any input.  

Love and blessings, Mark

Hebrews 10:26-31, 38-39

Hebrews 10:26-31
Authorized (King James) Version
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:38-39
Authorized (King James) Version
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Matthew 24:13, 15, 21, 27-31

Matthew 24:13
Authorized (King James) Version
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:15
Authorized (King James) Version
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Matthew 24:21
Authorized (King James) Version
21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:27-31
Authorized (King James) Version
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 18:21, 19:1, 7-8, 11-14, 20:4, 21:7-8, 22:14-15

Revelation 18:21
Authorized (King James) Version
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Revelation 19:1
Authorized (King James) Version
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Revelation 19:7-8
Authorized (King James) Version
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Revelation 19:11-14
Authorized (King James) Version
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 20:4
Authorized (King James) Version
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 21:7-8
Authorized (King James) Version
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 22:14-15
Authorized (King James) Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Hebrews 10:26-31, 38-39
Matthew 24:13, 15, 21, 27-31
Revelation 18:21, 19:1, 7-8, 11-14, 20:4, 21:7-8, 22:14-15
 

[Réjean]

On 3/20/2025 at 10:24 PM, Mark; Christ made. said:

God bless you, believers, 

... with faith, strength, protection, providence, consolation, correction, communion, Christian fellowship, Holy Spirit fruit, love, light and power from the LORD, in Jesus Christ's holy name.  I love you.  You are loved.  Bless you.

I have been searching scriptures for sound doctrine answers to my questions about the concepts of rapture timing referred to as 'pre, mid or post tribulation (trib) rapture' and salvation security or 'once saved always saved.'  After reading a bit of Hebrews, Matthew 24 and the end of Revelation, I fear that someone is able to walk away or even disqualify themselves from their faith and that the rapture looks to be after the great tribulation.  I will provide some scriptures below to suggest why it looks that way.  What do you think?  Please pray for Holy Spirit discernment, revelation, clarity, wisdom and sound doctrine based on God's first and last word.  Thanks for any input.  

Love and blessings, Mark

Hebrews 10:26-31, 38-39

Hebrews 10:26-31
Authorized (King James) Version
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:38-39
Authorized (King James) Version
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Matthew 24:13, 15, 21, 27-31

Matthew 24:13
Authorized (King James) Version
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:15
Authorized (King James) Version
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Matthew 24:21
Authorized (King James) Version
21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:27-31
Authorized (King James) Version
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 18:21, 19:1, 7-8, 11-14, 20:4, 21:7-8, 22:14-15

Revelation 18:21
Authorized (King James) Version
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Revelation 19:1
Authorized (King James) Version
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Revelation 19:7-8
Authorized (King James) Version
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Revelation 19:11-14
Authorized (King James) Version
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 20:4
Authorized (King James) Version
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 21:7-8
Authorized (King James) Version
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 22:14-15
Authorized (King James) Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Hebrews 10:26-31, 38-39
Matthew 24:13, 15, 21, 27-31
Revelation 18:21, 19:1, 7-8, 11-14, 20:4, 21:7-8, 22:14-15
 

the Last Trumpet is the 7th Trumpet.

the 7th Trumpet is the Last Trumpet.

Which mean Post Rapture to me.

Edited March 27 by Réjean
rephrashing

[Mark; Christ made.]

False alarm, I have settled back into the comfort of pre tribulation rapture and eternal salvation.

[timf]

If one sees the rapture as the removal of Christians before the tribulation it can make sense logically.

1. The age a grace will end when Jesus Christ pours out wrath on the earth as he opens the scroll that might be seen as the title deed of earth (Rev 4-5). The "body" of Christ will not be on earth (1Thess 5:9)

2. For Israel to fulfill its original purpose (to be a nation of priests through whom the world will know about God), A faithful remnant will be preserved by God through the tribulation to populate this nation that will finally receive the new covenant.

It can be confusing to read about the return of Jesus to rule the kingdom in Israel and his return for the Christians.

It can be helpful to consider what was written for Israel to be distinct from what Paul write to Christians.

[WilliamL]

On 3/27/2025 at 1:02 PM, Réjean said:

the Last Trumpet is the 7th Trumpet.

This is a presumption -- a rational one, but not necessarily a correct one -- on your part, which presumption is not supported by any Scripture.

[WilliamL]

16 hours ago, Mark; Christ made. said:

False alarm, I have settled back into the comfort of pre tribulation rapture and eternal salvation.

Too bad; your conclusion was correct in your first post.

Just this one article should be enough to prove, for any open and honest student of the Bible, that the Church will go through the Trib:

52. The Parousia of the Son of Man

Reviews the use of the term parousia by Jesus, Paul, and Peter, and what is thereby revealed about the sequence of End Time events. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2211-the-parousia-of-the-son-of-man/

[Réjean]

20 hours ago, Mark; Christ made. said:

False alarm, I have settled back into the comfort of pre tribulation rapture and eternal salvation.

not funny