yomotalking Posted November 29, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 154 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,838 Content Per Day: 0.40 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/18/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/29/1991 Share Posted November 29, 2005 Why must they be mutually exclusive? In order to understand grace, one had to understand why the grace is being offered. Likewise, if one sees the negative alternative (hell), they must see the positive choice in Christ. I see the two working hand in hand, not as different ways to reach out. True. It probably does depend on the person but I know I am motivated more by the fear of hell. This reminds me of a girl who had a dream of Judgement day.............. Read "The Grace and Truth Paradox", by Randy Alcorn. The whole book is on this topic. It is awesome to think about how beyond us, God is. I believe that you must present both God's grace and love, as well as His truth, and justice. Focusing on one to the neglect of the other does not teach the true Gospel. Saying "Jesus Loves you, and wants you to be with Him in heaven- so follow Him" isn't the whole story. Saying "Jesus hates sin and you will go to hell if you don't follow Him" isn't the whole story. Saying "You are a sinner. Jesus loves you, but He hates sin. He wants you to live with Him in Heaven, but nothing sinful can be in Heaven. He gave his life for you on the cross to pay for your sins, and if you accept his free and perfect gift of eternal life, you can live with Him forever in Heaven." IS the whole story. does this help? Hmmmmmmmmm..............you didn't mention the conseqenses of sin. I think Hell should be preached first. Then God's Grace. I reckon I could do a pretty good message on that! (LOL) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted November 29, 2005 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 2 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,073 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1923 Share Posted November 29, 2005 Jesus came so we could have life and have it more abundantly. To tell people that He came to stop us from going to hell, is bad witnessing. The bible teaches us that He came to save us , not condemn us. He is our means to be reconciled back to the Father for eternity. People who say you will go to hell if you do this or that are way off. That is not the nessage of the gospel. e Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted November 29, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted November 29, 2005 Christ is our example. He preached grace mercy forgiveness and love though faith and obedience to God, he didnt shy away from the topic of condemnation and educated those who needed educating. His emphasis however was on the former. People need to know why they need grace they also need to know that they can trust God. Do as the Saviour does, tend to the need of each and every one, seek to know what's on their heart and let the Spirit speak the words of God :-) I agree, we need to look to how Christ operated. He used both ideas, to those who needed to see their sin and understand their need for repentance, He pointed it out. To those who were well aware of their sin, and needed forgiveness, He offered it. But the funny thing is Christ mentions Hell or damnation more than Paul does; yet Paul is often seen as kind of the "enforcer" in the New Testament. Just start with Mathew, look at how many versus there are where Jesus speaks of Hell or Damnation, the weeping and gnashing of teeth were His words as are references to eternal burning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NewPilgrim Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 Eric said: Jesus came so we could have life and have it more abundantly. To tell people that He came to stop us from going to hell, is bad witnessing. The bible teaches us that He came to save us , not condemn us. He is our means to be reconciled back to the Father for eternity. Partly true and partly not. The whole truth is that we are all born bound for hell in the sinful nature, already condemned as it were. Jesus, thru salvation, offers the way from condemnation to the everlasting life which he has always intended for us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaniJ87 Posted November 30, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 265 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/30/1987 Share Posted November 30, 2005 Read "The Grace and Truth Paradox", by Randy Alcorn. The whole book is on this topic. It is awesome to think about how beyond us, God is. I believe that you must present both God's grace and love, as well as His truth, and justice. Focusing on one to the neglect of the other does not teach the true Gospel. Saying "Jesus Loves you, and wants you to be with Him in heaven- so follow Him" isn't the whole story. Saying "Jesus hates sin and you will go to hell if you don't follow Him" isn't the whole story. Saying "You are a sinner. Jesus loves you, but He hates sin. He wants you to live with Him in Heaven, but nothing sinful can be in Heaven. He gave his life for you on the cross to pay for your sins, and if you accept his free and perfect gift of eternal life, you can live with Him forever in Heaven." IS the whole story. does this help? Hmmmmmmmmm..............you didn't mention the conseqenses of sin. I think Hell should be preached first. Then God's Grace. I reckon I could do a pretty good message on that! (LOL) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yomotalking Posted November 30, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 154 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,838 Content Per Day: 0.40 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/18/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/29/1991 Share Posted November 30, 2005 Jesus came so we could have life and have it more abundantly. To tell people that He came to stop us from going to hell, is bad witnessing. The bible teaches us that He came to save us , not condemn us. He is our means to be reconciled back to the Father for eternity. People who say you will go to hell if you do this or that are way off. That is not the nessage of the gospel. e You missed understood me. (If you were addressing me) I was not saying do that ONLY. But that is the layout I'd do it. BUt add other important parts in too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryt Posted December 1, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted December 1, 2005 This is like the old discussion on which is better: "hellfire & brimstone" or "God's grace." I believe most people need to know of the love, grace, and mercy extended to them by the Lord upon the cross more than they need to know they are going to go to hell if they don't believe into Him. Plus, I would argue two things: A) It takes more prayer, more study, more discernment, and more of the need to be in the Spirit to preach of God's love, grace, mercy, and Christ's unqualified sacrifice and, B) The Gospel - that is, the "good news" - is not that believers will go to heaven and unbelievers will go to hell. The "good news" is that Christ willingly went to the cross to accomplish two things: Firstly to save sinners from the might, power, and sting of sin and death, and secondly to impart God's uncreated, indestructable, divine life into all who have believed into and called upon His name, and to build them up together in the new creation as a corporate Body, household, bride, and holy city. It is the LAW that is our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ. No one will appreciate the Grace of God unless they understand that they have sinned. Jesus never gave grace to the proud. He gave the law. The rich young ruler did not understand the need for grace. He needed the conviction of sin. That is why Jesus said that when the Holy Spirit would come He would CONVICT the world of sin, of righteousness and judgement. If someone is worried about hell you can be sure that he/she is under conviction of sin. If they are not under conviction of sin then the will never flee to the grace and mercy as a remedy. LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted December 1, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted December 1, 2005 This is like the old discussion on which is better: "hellfire & brimstone" or "God's grace." I believe most people need to know of the love, grace, and mercy extended to them by the Lord upon the cross more than they need to know they are going to go to hell if they don't believe into Him. Plus, I would argue two things: A) It takes more prayer, more study, more discernment, and more of the need to be in the Spirit to preach of God's love, grace, mercy, and Christ's unqualified sacrifice and, B) The Gospel - that is, the "good news" - is not that believers will go to heaven and unbelievers will go to hell. The "good news" is that Christ willingly went to the cross to accomplish two things: Firstly to save sinners from the might, power, and sting of sin and death, and secondly to impart God's uncreated, indestructable, divine life into all who have believed into and called upon His name, and to build them up together in the new creation as a corporate Body, household, bride, and holy city. It is the LAW that is our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ. No one will appreciate the Grace of God unless they understand that they have sinned. Jesus never gave grace to the proud. He gave the law. The rich young ruler did not understand the need for grace. He needed the conviction of sin. That is why Jesus said that when the Holy Spirit would come He would CONVICT the world of sin, of righteousness and judgement. If someone is worried about hell you can be sure that he/she is under conviction of sin. If they are not under conviction of sin then the will never flee to the grace and mercy as a remedy. LT Exactly. That was me, why did I need grace, I hadn't done anything wrong? For many people who were not raised with any sort of basic idea of sin this is important for them to see and understand. But a person who is already feeling hopeless and guilty would or could be crushed by preaching hell and damnation, they need to hear grace. I needed to be pierced first, then go to grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted December 1, 2005 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,264 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,993 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 1, 2005 (edited) Personally I like the combined approach that Living Waters Ministeries uses. First of all one has to get the person so understand that there is a God. If they don't believe that, it's hard to preach the gospel. Once there, explain that all of us are sinners, and have the person being spoken to to understand that they have broken Gods Laws at some time in their lives and the result of that is always hell...... then one only has to let them know that it does not have to be that way, that Jesus has made a way out of the bondage of the broken law and one must accept the Lordship of Jesus to escape the fate that we all deserve. See... it's simple if you use the combination of both. My problem is that the people I need to reach doesn't believe in God, but in either ID or Evolution and will not even consider any of the real story of reality. In this I have not been so sucessful one on one. They don't believe in heaven or hell or God or whatever just when your dead..... your dead. I would surely like to know how Scientific Atheist came to know the Lord..... it might help me with my brother in law. Sam Edited December 1, 2005 by other one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NewPilgrim Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 Anyone who has kids or who has worked with kids will tell you, as ideal as it is, you just cant teach about life without teaching about consequence. I love you, dont put your hand in the kettle (or you'll get scalded) I love you, dont play in the road (or a car may hit you and maybe even kill you) I love you, dont play with guns (or you may shoot yourself) I love you, dont smoke (it causes lung cancer) Hands up if you'd honestly say those things without the follow-ups in the brackets....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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