Does the belief in eternal hell mean that man is an eternal spirit?

[larryt]

Thanks, Fiosh, thats one of the things Im trying to get at. Jesus says you won't have eternal life unless you are in Him. Therefore, those that are not found in Him will not live eternally. So.....if you arent in Jesus you wont live eternally.

So far, I have come to the conclusion that God will destroy those humans who aren't in Jesus in an everlasting lake of fire. However, they won't have eternal life and therefore can not be tormented forever in hell. However, the fallen angels and the devil were created as spiritual or eternal beings and they will live in punishment forever. What does this say about what the beast and false prophet really are? The bible is very clear and makes certain to say that they will be tormented forever. That epitaph is not included for those humans in the white throne judgement.

The lake of fire will last forever and the devil and his angels will be there forever. However, it appears that those humans condemned to the lake of fire will not live forever. However, their punishment will be everlasting because they will never exist. It will be as if they never existed. Is that perhaps the everlasting punishment?

Is there any way to reconcil what Jesus tells us about eternal life and what men have said of eternal damnation?

Hi Jamie,

Revelation is not the only place that eternal torment is mentioned.

Mr 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

4 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Notice that our Lord is telling us to take care. It is better to lose a hand, eye, foot, than to be cast into hell being whole. What would it matter if we have two feet, hand, eyes and cease existance. Also

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Re 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

We were created to EXIST forever. Either to be in the presence of God for all eternity or to be separated for God for all eternity. It truly is a sobering thought.

LT

[apothanein kerdos]

Man's spirit and body exist on the same ontological level, that is to say, both are created and thus below God and equal in this manner. Yet thoug the same ontologically, they are different in such as way as to they serve different purposes. It is my belief that both are temporal (can be eradicated) based purely on the fact that God created and can subsequently destroy. However, I believe He allows our body to cease but our spirit to continue. In other words, our spirits are only eternal because God allows them to continue in existance.

[JLW001]

Thanks, Fiosh, thats one of the things Im trying to get at. Jesus says you won't have eternal life unless you are in Him. Therefore, those that are not found in Him will not live eternally. So.....if you arent in Jesus you wont live eternally.

So far, I have come to the conclusion that God will destroy those humans who aren't in Jesus in an everlasting lake of fire. However, they won't have eternal life and therefore can not be tormented forever in hell. However, the fallen angels and the devil were created as spiritual or eternal beings and they will live in punishment forever. What does this say about what the beast and false prophet really are? The bible is very clear and makes certain to say that they will be tormented forever. That epitaph is not included for those humans in the white throne judgement.

The lake of fire will last forever and the devil and his angels will be there forever. However, it appears that those humans condemned to the lake of fire will not live forever. However, their punishment will be everlasting because they will never exist. It will be as if they never existed. Is that perhaps the everlasting punishment?

Is there any way to reconcil what Jesus tells us about eternal life and what men have said of eternal damnation?

Hi Jamie,

Revelation is not the only place that eternal torment is mentioned.

Mr 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

4 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Notice that our Lord is telling us to take care. It is better to lose a hand, eye, foot, than to be cast into hell being whole. What would it matter if we have two feet, hand, eyes and cease existance. Also

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Re 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

We were created to EXIST forever. Either to be in the presence of God for all eternity or to be separated for God for all eternity. It truly is a sobering thought.

LT

Yes LT, you are right. Jesus does mention a fire that will not be quenched and that the worm will not die. Does this mean that the individual sent there has an eternal life of punishment. I think that the punishment is everlasting, that the fire is everlasting, but that they cease to exist. The only beings to suffer eternal suffering are those beings who were created eternal or spirit.

You see the place, the fire, the evidence of their destruction will last forever, but I can not reconcile what Jesus says about eternal life with a human being existing forever in a state of perpetual torment. If damned humans live forever in Hell, then they would indeed receive eternal life, but it would just not be as "pleasant" as the life those of us in Jesus Christ will receive. It does not reconcile with the words of Jesus.

[larryt]

Thanks, Fiosh, thats one of the things Im trying to get at. Jesus says you won't have eternal life unless you are in Him. Therefore, those that are not found in Him will not live eternally. So.....if you arent in Jesus you wont live eternally.

So far, I have come to the conclusion that God will destroy those humans who aren't in Jesus in an everlasting lake of fire. However, they won't have eternal life and therefore can not be tormented forever in hell. However, the fallen angels and the devil were created as spiritual or eternal beings and they will live in punishment forever. What does this say about what the beast and false prophet really are? The bible is very clear and makes certain to say that they will be tormented forever. That epitaph is not included for those humans in the white throne judgement.

The lake of fire will last forever and the devil and his angels will be there forever. However, it appears that those humans condemned to the lake of fire will not live forever. However, their punishment will be everlasting because they will never exist. It will be as if they never existed. Is that perhaps the everlasting punishment?

Is there any way to reconcil what Jesus tells us about eternal life and what men have said of eternal damnation?

Hi Jamie,

Revelation is not the only place that eternal torment is mentioned.

Mr 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

4 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Notice that our Lord is telling us to take care. It is better to lose a hand, eye, foot, than to be cast into hell being whole. What would it matter if we have two feet, hand, eyes and cease existence. Also

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Re 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

We were created to EXIST forever. Either to be in the presence of God for all eternity or to be separated for God for all eternity. It truly is a sobering thought.

LT

Yes LT, you are right. Jesus does mention a fire that will not be quenched and that the worm will not die. Does this mean that the individual sent there has an eternal life of punishment. I think that the punishment is everlasting, that the fire is everlasting, but that they cease to exist. The only beings to suffer eternal suffering are those beings who were created eternal or spirit.

You see the place, the fire, the evidence of their destruction will last forever, but I can not reconcile what Jesus says about eternal life with a human being existing forever in a state of perpetual torment. If damned humans live forever in Hell, then they would indeed receive eternal life, but it would just not be as "pleasant" as the life those of us in Jesus Christ will receive. It does not reconcile with the words of Jesus.

Whereas life is the state of existence, death is not the state of non-existence. Death in the biblical sense is a separation. Adam DIED the day he ate the fruit. He was separated from God. His body, soul, and spirit did not cease to exist. He no longer had fellowship with God. The fellowship was cut off.

Then you have the rich man and Lazarus. Some say it is a parable. I don't believe it is. Jesus told us when He was telling a parable. Jesus say

Lu 16:19

[JLW001]

I understand what you are saying, LT. These are the reasons that I have a bit of a time with this subject. However, as I stated earlier, this subject is not a question of my salvation and it is not necessary for me to know if condemned men suffer endlessly or just die. I am in Jesus Christ and He is in me. One day we will know the answers to these and many other questions, but my salvation does not depend upon me knowing 100% now.

Thank The Father and Jesus that They have shown me the truth and that Jesus died to reconcile me to God. I am just so full of the expectation of Jesus' return that I could burst. lol

May God Bless us all in love and in wisdom.

[larryt]

I understand what you are saying, LT. These are the reasons that I have a bit of a time with this subject. However, as I stated earlier, this subject is not a question of my salvation and it is not necessary for me to know if condemned men suffer endlessly or just die. I am in Jesus Christ and He is in me. One day we will know the answers to these and many other questions, but my salvation does not depend upon me knowing 100% now.

Thank The Father and Jesus that They have shown me the truth and that Jesus died to reconcile me to God. I am just so full of the expectation of Jesus' return that I could burst. lol

May God Bless us all in love and in wisdom.

This is true, I just want to know Him and the power of the resurrection. The salvation from damnation is only the first step. The salvation/deliverance from the power of sin is the rest of our lives here on earth.

Php 2:12

[Avidan]

[

quote name='CarolineS' date='Nov 30 2005, 12:55 AM' post='478451]

If we believe that man has an eternal spirit, then does that violate anything that God has said about us? Is that placing man at a point where he should not be? You see that is what I am struggling with. Its not a question of whether its ok with me that God punishes sinners in an eternal punishment, its that if the punishment is eternal, then that means that humans are eternal beings. Does it not?

The idea that a man's spirit is eternal is somehow offensive to me. I can't put my finger on it, but it seems to elevate man to a point where he should not be. That is the idea I am struggling with. I suppose I did not properly phrase the question.

Does belief in the eternal spirit of man violate God? The belief in the eternal spirit of man pervades paganism and perhaps that is why it offends a some part of me. Didn't God tell Adam and Eve that they would surely die if they ate the fruit of the tree? He didn't say you will be eternally punished. Was he simply referring to the physical death that is appointed to all men?

Man does not have an immortal or eternal soul. This is a belief taken from pagan culture and incorporated into the apostate church. Only God is immortal.

We receive the gift of immortality at the second advent of Christ. It is a gift. It is for believers only. Only for those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You make some good points. I will do some reading and continue this.

My take is that there is a "spirit within us. As the flesh is enmity against God, so there must be a "source" that God can "relate" to in us.

Unbelievers do not receive the gift of immortality. They are punished according to their sins. Some will burn for a short time, some longer. Then the fire will go out. Evil will no longer exist. Only what is holy, good, and righteous. Never again will any sin occur in the new world God has prepared.

If you study the Word, scripture clearly refutes this false idea of the immortal soul, which is a lie from Satan himself.

In Christ,

CarolineS

Edited November 30, 2005 by Avidan

[MK202002]

I don't feel that saying your soul exists forever puts you in a too God-like position. This isn't our own decision, it was made by God. He made us in his own image, to enjoy us forever. I don't think he would he create something with the purpose of losing it.

I do think that we should take the word 'eternal' literally when it is written before the word 'life', as well as take it literally when it is written before the word 'torment'.

I have never found one biblical example of a soul ceasing to exist.

[Fiosh]

It is clear to me from Scripture that eternal life refers to an existence in the Presence of God, in the kingdom of heaven.

Eternal punishment refers to an eternity apart from God, in torment.

I don't want to believe it; I don't like to believe it; but that's what the Bible says.

Matthew 25: 46

[Fiosh]

Thanks, Fiosh, thats one of the things Im trying to get at. Jesus says you won't have eternal life unless you are in Him. Therefore, those that are not found in Him will not live eternally. So.....if you arent in Jesus you wont live eternally.

So far, I have come to the conclusion that God will destroy those humans who aren't in Jesus in an everlasting lake of fire. However, they won't have eternal life and therefore can not be tormented forever in hell. However, the fallen angels and the devil were created as spiritual or eternal beings and they will live in punishment forever. What does this say about what the beast and false prophet really are? The bible is very clear and makes certain to say that they will be tormented forever. That epitaph is not included for those humans in the white throne judgement.

The lake of fire will last forever and the devil and his angels will be there forever. However, it appears that those humans condemned to the lake of fire will not live forever. However, their punishment will be everlasting because they will never exist. It will be as if they never existed. Is that perhaps the everlasting punishment?

Is there any way to reconcil what Jesus tells us about eternal life and what men have said of eternal damnation?

Sorry, JLW, I don't agree. There are 2 key words in the passage--eternal & life. That is what is found in Jesus---eternal life.

There is another eternal possibility---eternal damnation.

I don't see evidence that anyone's spirit will cease to exist.