Will the wicked be tormented for eternity or annihilated?

[Bill Barton]

"Eternal" in the New Testament is Greek αιωνιος= "indeterminate as to duration" (Perschbacher, "New Analytical Green Lexicon").

Incarceration in hell IMO is a minimum of 1000 years since Jesus will rule that long (Revelation chapter 20).

Afterwards we look forward to a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells (Revelation 22:1).

Edited yesterday at 01:02 AM by Bill Barton

[NeutralZone]

13 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Where in the Bible is Adam separated from his offspring?  In all my years, I've never ever heard of that.  Since Christ died for everyone, that should settle the matter.  Adam is just as much a human being as any of his offspring.  Therefore, Christ died for him as well.

 

They are separated from their offspring by the fact that they were perfect when they rebelled, whereas, their offspring are born imperfect and therefore prone to error.

Scripture says there is no forgiveness for deliberate sin.  Adam and Eve committed deliberate/willful sin because as perfect individuals, they knew exactly what they were doing.

Hebrews 10:26

"For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,"

[NeutralZone]

13 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Where in the Bible is Adam separated from his offspring?  In all my years, I've never ever heard of that.  Since Christ died for everyone, that should settle the matter.  Adam is just as much a human being as any of his offspring.  Therefore, Christ died for him as well.

Hebrews 10:26 says otherwise.

  

13 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Yes, I've explained the verse from v.18.  Since Jesus paid the ultimate and "once for ALL" sacrifice on behalf of all mankind, including Adam and Eve, there is no more need for sacrifice.  

Jesus' sacrifice did not cover Adam and Eve, because those two individuals committed deliberate sin.  The clue is this:  If an individual was perfect when he/she sinned, it indicates their actions are deliberate. That's the reason why Satan and his demonic hordes know they, too, will eventually be annihilated.  They were perfect and chose to rebel against the Creator.

[Bill Barton]

"Eternal" in the New Testament is Greek αιωνιος= "indeterminate as to duration" (Perschbacher, "New Analytical Green Lexicon").

Incarceration in hell IMO is a minimum of 1000 years since Jesus will rule that long (Revelation chapter 20).

Afterwards we look forward to a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells (Revelation 22:1).

Edited yesterday at 01:07 AM by Bill Barton

[NeutralZone]

13 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Do you actually think that deliberate sin will cause a believer to lose salvation?  It sure sounds that way.

What I think has nothing to do with what the Bible says, FreeGrace.  At Genesis 3:22-24, Almighty God Jehovah made it clear that he had no intention of allowing Adam and Eve to live forever.  He evicted them from the Garden of Eden and then posted an angel with a flaming sword, to prevent them from getting access to the tree of life.

American Standard Version -- Genesis 3:22-24
"22.  And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever ? 23.  therefore Jehovah God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24.  So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden the Cherubim, and the flame of a sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

 

I don't know where you're getting this idea that Jesus died to redeem Adam and Eve.  Individuals who start off perfect and deliberately rebel against God cannot be redeemed because what they did was not a mistake on their part.  

 

[Bill Barton]

"Eternal" in the New Testament is Greek αιωνιος= "indeterminate as to duration" (Perschbacher, "New Analytical Green Lexicon."

Incarceration in hell IMO is a minimum of 1000 years since Jesus will rule that long (Revelation chapter 20).

Afterwards we look forward to a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells (Revelation 22:1).

[Hinds Feet]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Not really.  The issue is punishment and Matt 25:46 says there will be eternal punishment in the LOF.  Pretty straight forward.

If the soul ceases to exist, there is no more judgment since there is no more consciousness.  They has to be consciousness in order to experience punishment.

If I was given an effective numbing cream to apply to my butt before I received a spanking when I was a child, I'd LOVE it.   Because I wouldn't FEEL the spanking.

So, even though I would be spanked, it would make not matter because I wouldn't feel it.

Same with the LOF.  If a person ceases to exist by being cast into the LOF, they AREN'T being punished at all because they cease to be and cease to feel any effects of the punishment.

Such thinking is along the lines of atheists who think that their consciousness ceases when they die.  Boy, will they be surprised after they die!!

Hope isn't the issue.  Eternity is the issue.  And to have eternal punishment, one must be conscious of it.  It is that simple.  But you are free to disagree.

If he won't exist in eternity, he won't be condemned.  I don't know how else to understand "eternal punishment".

The writers of Scripture were Spirit led.  When the word 'fire' was used, it was because of the Holy Spirit, not because of some Greek beliefs, etc.

The condemned will certainly feel their punishment in both scenarios.  And no one there would say in their minds, 'Well, at least in a few hundred years I will no longer be experiencing this suffering here in the Lake of Fire.  My few years of rebellion on earth was totally worth it!'

What would annihilation feel like?  What would it feel like to be torn from existence itself?  When a person dies here, this just involves the body.  We have an idea about physical pain, but what about pain of the soul?  What about spiritual pain?  I imagine it is a fate worse than the worse natural death.  And when it comes to their final judgment at the Great White Throne, they will have the opportunity to find out they could have received God's grace and had their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life, but they decided to be rebellious.  As such, their names were blotted out.  Then they are cast into the LOF to be ripped out of existence.  I doubt there would be any atheist jumping head first into the LOF fire desiring to be ripped to shreds.

Yet as for me, officially I would say it could be eternal torment or annihilation.  I'm starting to lean toward annihilation in my current understanding given the reasons I stated in the OP.

[NeutralZone]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Same with the LOF.  If a person ceases to exist by being cast into the LOF, they AREN'T being punished at all because they cease to be and cease to feel any effects of the punishment.

Such thinking is along the lines of atheists who think that their consciousness ceases when they die.  Boy, will they be surprised after they die!!

Let me see if I understand your point.  So you believe non-existence is not punishment?
 

NeutralZone

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, NeutralZone said:

FreeGrace said:

Where in the Bible is Adam separated from his offspring?  In all my years, I've never ever heard of that.  Since Christ died for everyone, that should settle the matter.  Adam is just as much a human being as any of his offspring.  Therefore, Christ died for him as well.

They are separated from their offspring by the fact that they were perfect when they rebelled, whereas, their offspring are born imperfect and therefore prone to error.

I think you are seeing things that aren't in the Bible.  Since Adam and Eve sinned, and ALL their offspring sins, they aren't separated by anything.  What you point out doesn't support your point.  Adam sinned and brought sin into the human race.  We are ALL sinners.  Rom 5:15.

10 hours ago, NeutralZone said:

Scripture says there is no forgiveness for deliberate sin.

I will repeat;  the Bible doesn't say that.  It says there is no more SACRIFICE for sins.  A big difference. 

10 hours ago, NeutralZone said:

  Adam and Eve committed deliberate/willful sin because as perfect individuals, they knew exactly what they were doing.

Hebrews 10:26

"For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,"

See?

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, NeutralZone said:

FreeGrace said:

Where in the Bible is Adam separated from his offspring?  In all my years, I've never ever heard of that.  Since Christ died for everyone, that should settle the matter.  Adam is just as much a human being as any of his offspring.  Therefore, Christ died for him as well.

Hebrews 10:26 says otherwise.

No it doesn't.  

10 hours ago, NeutralZone said:

  Jesus' sacrifice did not cover Adam and Eve, because those two individuals committed deliberate sin.

So let's take this to it's "logical" conclusion.  Adam and Eve are in hell now.  I think you should think through your ideas before you publish them.

10 hours ago, NeutralZone said:

  The clue is this:  If an individual was perfect when he/she sinned, it indicates their actions are deliberate. That's the reason why Satan and his demonic hordes know they, too, will eventually be annihilated.  They were perfect and chose to rebel against the Creator.

Do you really believe that no saved person sins deliberately now?  That would mean, according to your "logic" that such saved people won't go to heaven, and therefore, salvation can be lost.  

If you believe that, you cannot believe what Jesus said in John 5:24 and 10:28.