THE MONUMENTAL ERROR OF ELLEN GOULD HARMON WHITE

[Catsmeow]

(1) Kinda like people who say the Law has ended?

(2)  Seriously though....we are either motivated by love for Yeshua or we are not. 

(3) The Holy Spirit has the job of convicting us...but even then we can't trust ourselves to be hearing this voice without checking it against God's written word.

YOD:

(1) I respectfully disagree with you on this one point brother. Here's why:

1 Tim 1:8-10

We know the Law is good IF one uses it properly. We also know that Law is made not for the righteous but for the lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjerers ---

*In another verse Paul tells us that these things are what some of us once were but are no longer...we are now a new creation in Christ Jesus.*

(2) Amen! :il:

(3) I can't improve on that...You're absolutely right!

[wordsower]

Good point, Cats, and yes, Yod, if we are not motivated by love I doubt we are His. I can't speak for everyone but I now when I got saved I had a major lifestyle change and it was all because of the Holy Spirit's work in my life.

One thought: Since Jesus came to fulfill the law, and He said "It is finished" ~ If it is not finished He didn't do what He came to do or what He said He did. The law was added until the Seed should come. He came......

shadow ..........................Reality

law ...................................... Jesus

:bright:

[Catsmeow]

We are not "under" the bondage of the Law...but Paul tells us that the Law is good if used properly. That is, if we apply it with the right motives and out of loving devotion, it IS good.

Problem is..it becomes a burden when it becomes a "must do"...You must tithe...you must honor the Sabbath...you must...you must...

I do tithe...but this is done properly because it's done joyfully and cheerfully.

If I were to honor Sabbath, I would do it cheerfully and joyfully.

Whatever we do, we should do it with joy and pleasure...for the sake of pleasing our Father in Heaven.

Word: I still like EGW's book.

[Guest yod]

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[Guest yod]

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[Catsmeow]

I think this thread's run it's course...I just quoted scripture in it's context. As the Lord says, "Let him with an ear hear."

I leave it at that...

Yes, YOD...of course there are consequences to sin. Being under grace never condones living a life of sin. We are no longer under the burden of the Law..

There's a big difference between, as you say..."adultery" and worshipping Sunday verses Saturday.

We're not talking about having permission to sin...we're talking about the nuts and bolts of the Law, (whether or not to observe certain feasts and holidays; eating pork; Sunday vs Saturday worship, etc.).

A Christian is under grace and is not compelled to live under the Law of Moses...we are under a higher law, motivated by love for God and a sincere heart. That Law gives us freedom to walk in obedience, not according to the scrutiny of men.

Read the NT again...particularly Paul's writings. We are free and no longer bound by the Laws of men. The law of God is motivated by love and written on our hearts and as Blindseeker says, each man must be fully pursuaded by his own convictions.

So if I tithe, I do so not because of Mosaic Law but because I personally love to tithe and do it cheerfully. It isn't motivated by men telling me "I must..."...I do it purely out of love for God.

If Wordsower doesn't decide to tithe, that doesn' t mean she's sinning. She's not. If I attend services on Sunday instead of Saturday, that doesn't mean I am sinning...I'm not.

What does matter is we need to be fully motivated out of love to serve and obey God...not go through the motions and become a bunch of legalists. It becomes legalism when we are coerced into observance.

The Holy Spirit prompts us to do His bidding and we walk*(make daily decisions) in freedom - not bound by written code.

Gee, how can I make my language clearer?

[OneAccord]

I think this is a great debate happening here, and both yod and catsmeow are equally convincing in their presentations.

I tend to go more with yod, however. I agree that the Law still stands as an absolute, as a plumbline line in our midst which we can measure our behaviors to, weigh our decisions against, and strive to comply with as much as we are able.

Psalm 119 is all about falling in love with the law! Rather than considering it a burden and an imposition, we should embrace it and delight in it. Our flesh resists this terribly.

Catsmeow:

"A Christian is under grace and is not compelled to live under the Law of Moses...we are under a higher law, motivated by love for God and a sincere heart. "

I'm not sure I agree that this is a new law or a higher law, I think it is the same law.

"We are free and no longer bound by the Laws of men. The law of God is motivated by love and written on our hearts and as Blindseeker says, each man must be fully pursuaded by his own convictions."

I suppose if the laws of men are lined up with the law of God, then we are most certainly bound to them, but it's also true that if I do 85mph in a 55mph zone, I am bound for a ticket.

I think that what you mean here is being bound to what you consider men's legalistic religious laws and interpretations about how you should live a godly life. Still some of this legalism does line up with God's law.

You seem to be saying that we have to decide for ourselves (according to what we think the Holy Spirit is telling us) what portions of the law suit us and what we are willing and able to follow, cheerfully, not grudgingly.

I still hold to the problem here of this seeming like a form of anarchy, and the root of a lot of disunity in the church.

This idea of obeying something Biblical only when you can do it cheerfully does not require sacrifice, and it kind of sounds like that old "If it feels good, do it" slogan.

"If Wordsower doesn't decide to tithe, that doesn' t mean she's sinning. She's not. If I attend services on Sunday instead of Saturday, that doesn't mean I am sinning...I'm not."

I think that anytime we are not obeying the law, we are sinning. That's where the grace comes in. We are forgiven because we have confessed to the Lord that we are sinners and that we have not, cannot, and will not obey His law. I don't think the grace is given that it's now okay not to follow the law and no longer a sin for us.

I realize this is controversial stuff, and sensitive, so just keep in mind that I am trying to figure all this out, too.

yod:

Here's a quote from another thread by Jim Raboin that I thought was a pretty fair interpretation:

"Jesus did fulfill the Law...meaning what the Law was powerless to do(make men truly righteous) Jesus gave us freely. But the Law is still perfect and still operational. "

In other words, He gave us HIS righteousness, He covered us in His own blood for the transgressions against the law that we have done, still do, and will continue to do.

Also, although this appears to be sidetracking the original thread, in a way it is not, because most of the issues that people have with SDA is legalism.

[Guest yod]

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[Catsmeow]

(1)

Recently I saw something in the Torah I had never seen before. There is/was a sacrifice for sin...and another sacrifice for guilt (of the same sin).

[OneAccord]

Incredible post, yod! Bravo!

The deeper I go into the Word, the more I find myself right where you are at in your post.

Falling in love with the law, but frustrated at how impossible it is to walk in it, given so many cultural barriers, fleshly barriers, this darned sin nature that gets in the way all the time.

Thank goodness Jesus was able to walk in it for us, for our sake, and for His own name's sake. If He had committed even one sin the law would have become imperfect as well. The plumbline would no longer be straight.

yod

"That "continue to do" part is what hurts."

Yes, and the fact that it hurts is a very good sign that you have a humble and contrite spirit, it brings forth repentance.

And that is why 1 John 1:8-10 is such a powerful passage:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.

My Amplified Bible says it says that he will continuously cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It's an ungoing process.

Sometimes I think that the Word is also the Law, though I may be off on this one, I haven't studied it out.

yod

"But you HAVE kept the Passover when, by faith, you placed the blood of The Lamb over the door of your heart. You HAVE kept Shavuot (Pentecost) when you received the Holy Spirit. You HAVE kept the feast of Unleavened Bread when you began removing the "leaven" from your life. You observe a Sabbath even if it isn't THE Sabbath"

Oh, now you're spiritualizing, yod.....tempting isn't it?

yod

"The church's overall ignorance of their heritage found in the Torah is the cause of SO much imbalance and misunderstanding throughout history, imo"

There is an excellent thread in the Various Issues for Discussion room on this very topic called "Two Forms of Christianity" that you might find interesting and could probably contribute some good stuff to.

yod

"Does the new Testament make the intentions of these laws void? I believe that every word in the Torah is as relevant today as it ever was. We just need to dig until we figure out "why" the Lord gave a particular commandment. Some are just basic hygeine.....like the dietary laws or rules for handling blood..etc..These are still good rules for a healthy life. "All things are lawful for me but not all things edify"

This is exactly what I wish to explore in my walk with the Lord. It is also the original intention behind the SDA church, but unfortunately became dogmatic, and somewhat cultish. But I think they have a lot of great stuff about trying to live by God's principles (His intentions behind the laws)

Present day culture, especially Western culture, is so very far from the law of God, that a closer walk with the Torah seems radical and outrageous, even to many Christians.

Again, yod, that was a wonderful, worthy post.