Christianity and Capitalism

[apothanein kerdos]

No; Capitalism did not bring those things--at least not intrinsically--or God would not be pro-capitalism. Unregenerate man brought those things, by abusing something good from God, just as man uses all sorts of God's good creation for sinful purposes......

Who said God support capitalism? The very notion that He would support a system designed to counter-act His truths is absurd. This is the equivalent to saying God supports Communism.

Capitalism required men to leave the home to work. Prior to this everything was very community based; families owned and lived in their stores where children, wives, and husbands all worked together (with the parents in authority) to make a living. On the farm again, the family unit (extended family and possibly the community) were required to work together. When we look to colonial America we see that, whilst not perfect and certaintly not utopian, it was better than now (when looking to the family unit). When the husband would die, leaving behind his widow, it was customary for the widow to take over the family business. She was already equally educated, could read, write, and understood how the trade worked. The children were taught by the parents and not by social workers public school teachers. Then the humanist Adam Smith came out with his philosophy of humanistic thought and action under the guise of religion Capitalism. The original theory (not what we have added or morphed it into) was a dog eat dog; man was naturally competative and animalistic in nature, therefore it only stood to run an economic system on such assumptions. Smith relied heavily upon Hume's philosophy (Hume was an athiest and forerunner to naturalism) when putting together such a belief. Thus, men now had to leave the home and go to the factory, or the store; work was removed from the home and placed in the public sphere. I could go on to explain how this eventually lead to a destruction of the masculine virtue, education, freedom, and the like. However, we must understand that Capitalism is not just working for ones food; it is a philosophy that relies on humanistic principles.

Capitalism is NOT what Christians think it is because probably none of them a good majority of them haven't read "Wealth of Nations." That is the staple in American economics, and the very premise of it is humanistic. Whereas Communism has its philosophy in Rousseau and over emphasized the community, Capitalism has its philosophy in humanism and puts an over emphasis in the individual. In Capitalism, the individual matters. Capitalism, at its core value, is anti-Bible. While we must work for our food, we must also look out for our neighbour, we must not elevate ourself above others, we must hold a sense of community and family. This runs contrary to the Capitalistic system. It certaintly is not something given to us by God, it's given to us by the Devil humanistic philosophy.

[Arthur Durnan]

Responsible free-market capitalism - or free enterprise, if you will - sure whips socialism which strives to bring all people down to a low common denominator and would rob the industrious on behalf of the often slothful. Socialism easily encourages covetousness: ie, if he has it, I want it too! Having money is NOT wrong. Lusting after it is. Christians keep what they give away in Jesus' name. Responsible free-market enterprise produces community capital & jobs for the people. Socialism & its blood-brother communism? Simply check the countries where it tends to thrive. Start with that Caribbean "paradise" 90-miles off Key West.

GOD BLESS AMERICA INDEED!

http://arthurdurnan.,freeyellow.com

[Gerioke]

Anybody who thinks capitalism is a Godly concept is probably rich or at least well off. Where in the bible does i say that God approves of capitalism. Jesus says o give o cesaer what is cesaer and give o God what is God's. I don't recall Him saying "heap up a bunch for yourself and conrol he market".

[Smalcald]

Christ didn't promote one form of government or economic system over another. We do have examples of the early Christians leading communal lifestyles, but that was a life choice they made, not the government. There are good Christians who have socialist tendencies and there are good Christians who firmly believe in the free market.

One of the problems of a socialist system, is the need for a heavy involvement of government. When that happens I don't know if religious liberty is fully protected. If we look at countries which have veered toward socialism, invariably religious liberty has been curtailed or crushed by the government, in addition government itself is not efficient and never will be, but that is kind of a separate topic.

One of the problems of a free market system is that it often encourages injustice and unfairness. Often you end up playing a birth lottery, so a pure market system would probably not treat those who start out with very little fairly, although they often can overcome, and we have examples of this.

So both have problems for Christians, I think we are called to help others and seek a just society regardless of the paradigm that society is operating under, I don't think there is anything inherently un-Christian about either system, they both simply focus on how goods and services are allocated in society.

[apothanein kerdos]

No; Capitalism did not bring those things--at least not intrinsically--or God would not be pro-capitalism. Unregenerate man brought those things, by abusing something good from God, just as man uses all sorts of God's good creation for sinful purposes......

Who said God support capitalism? The very notion that He would support a system designed to counter-act His truths is absurd. This is the equivalent to saying God supports Communism.

Capitalism required men to leave the home to work. Prior to this everything was very community based; families owned and lived in their stores where children, wives, and husbands all worked together (with the parents in authority) to make a living. On the farm again, the family unit (extended family and possibly the community) were required to work together. When we look to colonial America we see that, whilst not perfect and certaintly not utopian, it was better than now (when looking to the family unit). When the husband would die, leaving behind his widow, it was customary for the widow to take over the family business. She was already equally educated, could read, write, and understood how the trade worked. The children were taught by the parents and not by social workers public school teachers. Then the humanist Adam Smith came out with his philosophy of humanistic thought and action under the guise of religion Capitalism. The original theory (not what we have added or morphed it into) was a dog eat dog; man was naturally competative and animalistic in nature, therefore it only stood to run an economic system on such assumptions. Smith relied heavily upon Hume's philosophy (Hume was an athiest and forerunner to naturalism) when putting together such a belief. Thus, men now had to leave the home and go to the factory, or the store; work was removed from the home and placed in the public sphere. I could go on to explain how this eventually lead to a destruction of the masculine virtue, education, freedom, and the like. However, we must understand that Capitalism is not just working for ones food; it is a philosophy that relies on humanistic principles.

Capitalism is NOT what Christians think it is because probably none of them a good majority of them haven't read "Wealth of Nations." That is the staple in American economics, and the very premise of it is humanistic. Whereas Communism has its philosophy in Rousseau and over emphasized the community, Capitalism has its philosophy in humanism and puts an over emphasis in the individual. In Capitalism, the individual matters. Capitalism, at its core value, is anti-Bible. While we must work for our food, we must also look out for our neighbour, we must not elevate ourself above others, we must hold a sense of community and family. This runs contrary to the Capitalistic system. It certaintly is not something given to us by God, it's given to us by the Devil humanistic philosophy.

Capitolism gives us freedom we don't have in communist/socialist societies. We, the individual certainly are free under such a system to be selfish, but at the same time, we also are given the freedom to give voluntarily of the blessings we receive from God. I believe that is the way God wants it. He wants us to give of a willing heart, not of compulsion from the government. Also, when we are in control of our own money, we are free to give to charities we believe in instead of having those decisions left up to beurocrats. I for one don't like the government giving my money to groups like Planned Parenthood.

A government take over of charitable giving through the welfare system has in my opinion done more harm than good. We lose out on the blessings God wants to give us in being charitable on our own. Under the welfare system, the government confiscates a large part or our earnings, so we don't have the surplus we should to be charitable on our own.

Also, because the government set up the tax code like they did, where we get a tax break for giving, we are encouraged to disobey God's Word when it comes to not letting the left hand know what the right hand does. How much better it would be to have either a national sales tax which is what I support, or a flat tax of say 10 percent, and force the government to live within that income.

This doesn't respond to the point I brought up. You're looking at this from an economic perspective; economic perspectives are always wrong because it's, "How much wealth can we get and which system is most effective?" It never questions the philosophy behind the system or the moral implications of the system. Instead of looking at this economically, we need to look at this morally and philosophically (and Biblically). When we do this, we see that Capitalism (in the form of Adam Smith's creation of it and how it is mainly implimented within society) is not a system Christians should glorify or support.

Likewise, Capitalism doesn't give you the freedom to be charitable. In fact, it destroys it. Capitalism breeds off the idea that we are in constant competition with one another...therefore giving of your own good will is actually anti-Capitalism. True Capitalism teaches we are to look after ourselves, the individual, first.

Where in the bible does i say that God approves of capitalism. Jesus says o give o cesaer what is cesaer and give o God what is God's. I don't recall Him saying "heap up a bunch for yourself and conrol he market"

Bingo. The concept of Capitalism is actually discussed in the Bible....it's called the love of money.

[apothanein kerdos]

I am not arguing over where capitalism came from and the intent of it's founder. I am just saying from a Christian perspective, I believe the current system that exists in America is overall good.

Well what we have right now really isn't capitalism.

It's not a fre-market (there are rules and restrictions). It's basically a watered-down version of Capitalism....watered down with socialism (which not all of socialism is bad). However, it is still flawed in that it requires the "perfect worker", in other words, the harder the worker the bigger the reward. This allows for a man who works 60 hours a week, never sees his kids, neglects his marrital duties to his wife, and isn't involved in his famly (but is still a "good" man) to make more and become a better worker than a man who chooses to work only 30 hours a week so that he can be a part of his family. Capitalism, as it is, still destroys the family unit. We can argue against homosexuality, divorce, the secularization of our nation (which are all bad things), but when we often forget that the way our economic system is set up and established prohibits most working people from being part of a family.

My disagreement with it is that the government should be out of the welfare business. If the churches would do their job and teach us to be charitable in our personal lives as the Bible teaches, paying tithes and giving alms, the poor would be taken care of.

I agree with you 100% on this one.

It is possible for the government to be a capitalist one and the church to work well in that system, in that we are free to choose out of the goodness of our heart to give to charity, even if that does go against the selfish nature of captalism's founder.

The church can thrive in any system, it doesn't matter which system it is. The problem is that in a Capitalistic system, it is harder for a church to actually thrive spiritually because of the paradigm that comes with Capitalism. Numbers, size, ammount of money, etc all become the "success" marks of the people in a society. A business that sells $10,000,000 a year in produce and has 6,000 stores is considered more successful than a business that sells $100,000 in produce and has 200 stores. Thing is, the "smaller" business could be more ethical. Yet we take this paradigm and often apply it to the church. A church that has 10,000 members and a multi-million dollar building is often deemed "successful" whereas a smaller church is not. Revivals are expressed by the number of people saved. A church is considered alive only when it is adding numbers. Capitalism brings with it some much unwanted side effects on the church that we need to get rid of. It's quality, not quanity.

[Leonard]

apothanein kerdos and Gerioke: I'll say it again: "Ye do err, not knowing the Scripture, neither the power of God, ye do therefore greatly err."

In God's eschaton, He guarantees 'every man shall sit under his own vine, and under his own fig tree....' That is private ownership of the means of production; or to put it more briefly: "Capitalism." You keep talking about the ways sinful man abuses God's economic system, and think that's the system itself. I repeat: Because you don't know the Scriptures well enough, you are subject to error.

[Gerioke]

apothanein kerdos and Gerioke: I'll say it again: "Ye do err, not knowing the Scripture, neither the power of God, ye do therefore greatly err."

In God's eschaton, He guarantees 'every man shall sit under his own vine, and under his own fig tree....' That is private ownership of the means of production; or to put it more briefly: "Capitalism." You keep talking about the ways sinful man abuses God's economic system, and think that's the system itself. I repeat: Because you don't know the Scriptures well enough, you are subject to error.

Matthew 6:18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Matthew 19

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 4

19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

Mark 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

The woman was a capitalist? Leonard my comrad, you errr.

[apothanein kerdos]

apothanein kerdos and Gerioke: I'll say it again: "Ye do err, not knowing the Scripture, neither the power of God, ye do therefore greatly err."

In God's eschaton, He guarantees 'every man shall sit under his own vine, and under his own fig tree....' That is private ownership of the means of production; or to put it more briefly: "Capitalism." You keep talking about the ways sinful man abuses God's economic system, and think that's the system itself. I repeat: Because you don't know the Scriptures well enough, you are subject to error.

Matthew 6:18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Matthew 19

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 4

19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

Mark 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

The woman was a capitalist? Leonard my comrad, you errr.

Eaxctly Geri.

I'd like to add that, of the two of us Leonard, who has read "Wealth of Nations?" You didn't counter a single thing I said. Why? Because you can't, you haven't read the original work. A man can work and keep his own property under almost any economic system (such as he did prior to capitalism). The core element of Capitalism is humanism, there is no escaping this. I dare you to prove me wrong by using Adam Smith's workings.

[Smalcald]

Well I have read some of the Wealth of Nations, and I have also read all of Hyak's "The Road to Serfdom"

Capitalism has some inherent tendencies, which could lead people into materialism; it assumes some things about human behavior, which sometimes I think, becomes self-fulfilling. However, on a scale with other systems, I would rather live in a system, which was more like capitalism and less like socialism. As far as Christianity flourishing or not, in the 20th century Christianity was treated much better in capitalist countries than in socialist countries. The reason being that socialism will require the heavy hand of the government to implement, it assumes to know what people want, it indeed as Hyak postulated in the 1940's would lead to totalitarianism, and has in instances where it has been seriously tried. In fact the basic idea has been pretty much relegated to the dustbin of history for good reason, it does not work and importantly as I stated earlier needs a totalitarian state to implement. A totalitarian state in general will be not only benign toward religion and Christianity, but seek to destroy their practice, as it seeks to destroy anything, which is viewed as a threat.

Now take a free market system. Well in this system we are free to live collectively if we want to. We have the right and ability to live alone or as a collective, we have well defined private property rights, we have individual liberty, and we have a set of rules to govern our transactions applied consistently, all of these are lynchpins if Capitalism is to be a success.

So from a Christian perspective I don't think we have to nor should we buy into the materialism of our system, nor should we buy into the competitive nature of our system, vying for who can accumulate the most toys or money or largest careers. The thing is that in our system we have the choice to drop out, we don't have to be part of that if we don't want to.

However I would like to see some major changes made to our system but that would be a different topic.