The Trinity?

[mike2]

Hehehehehe My Favorit subject

I believe in the Oneness of God in three Persons. I would like to show you how this works using the Old Testament Verse Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one Lord."

In Hebrew there are two words for the word one:

Echad meaning united group

Example:

Genesis 2:24

For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

See how man and women do not litterally mean Join into one being, it says one Unite which is what Echad means, One Unite.

Yachiyd means alone and single.

Deuteronomy 6:4 states, "The LORD our God is One United-(Echad) Lord."

Consider this:

take three glasses

one with water in it

Pour water into the other two

its the same water in all three

pour the water back into one

three in one...

It Gets better....

put a bazillion glasses out there (all of us)

pour the water from the one cup into all of them

God in us

If the water goes in and out of the glass we all become a part of each other in God

[Aviator227]

For any of those who believe that Gods Son, Jesus Christ, was an Angel, and not God, read Hebrews 1:5-14:

"5 For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say:

[Brother Chad]

Three words: The Athanasian Creed.

I appreciate what you said but I don't want any of the man-made doctrines to get in the way here. Just Scripture! The creeds are subject to a group of mens interpretations as are some scriptures in the Bible. Still the last thing I want to put my faith in doctrinally is something that was man-made hundreds of years after Jesus and the disciples were around. God bless!

[Brother Chad]

So far so good brothers and sisters. I like all the comments and I really like that everyone in here is polite. I realize that eventually it could get messy, but I hope this just to be a discussion of two different viewpoints. Here is the first point that I will bring up:

I saw someone using the verse from Deuteronomy 6:4. As we all know, the Jewish people are God's chosen ones. And isn't funny that this verse is the most distinctive and important statement of faith for the Jews. So much so that many a devout Jew would make this confession of faith just before their death. Now we must remember that the Jewish religion believes in a monotheistic God and this is a major reason for the Jewish rejection of Christianity throughout history (trinitarianism).

Someone also commented that all three were present at the creation, yet in Isaiah 44:24 God said, "I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself". Twice in one verse God says that He alone was the creator. So when the Bible says that Jesus created the world, to me that says that He is God because "God is one." (Galatians 3:20)

That is all the time I have for this session, keep up the good work all of you. I know that some of you are just as intrigued by this subject as I am, but let's not forget that our true calling from Jesus is to love one another!

God bless you all brothers and sisters in Christ!

[Unico]

I don't follow the concept of Trinity. It's Pagan.

When I mean God - that's the ONLY (and no other) TRUE GOD - none other than the Father.

Definitely NOT the Son, Not the holy spirit.

Peace,

Unico

[Marked as First Post]

[Brother Chad]

God is indeed one God. In Hebrew, there are two expressions for oneness, Yachid and Echad

(I forget which is which) One means "one unique and individual" the other is "one in unity"

God describes himself as "one in unity" which, in his triune nature is the correct term to use. If he was not triune, then the other expression would be used.

Moving onto to "defense" of the trinitarian standpoint:

There are so many places in scripture to go with this, so I guess the beginning is as good as any:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

I'm sure in your previous discussions on trinity you've run into this verse and probably many others that will come up, but I'll assume for the sake of discussion that you haven't

God refers to himself as "us". This has been written off by some protagonists as a "royal 'we'" but there is no such concept in the original hebrew and I believe the concept did not exist anywhere at the time of writing. Indeed when the original hebrew is translated to its very root, the expression for God "elohim" is translated "the powers". Note that this is also a plural in nature as aversed to "the power" or "the great power"

secondly, who is God addressing? He speaks, but there is no mention of angels around him as he speaks and indeed, if he WAS addressing angels, then by the what he says, we would be as angels and we are not as angels.

The statement is a conversation between God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, this is further held out by the fact that we have the physical presence of Yeshua, a spiritual nature as that of the Holy Spirit, and a representation of the characteristics of God the Father, his abilty to emote (love, anger, compassion, jealousy etc...)

Theres still plenty more to go at, but I feel thats enough to discuss for the moment. When we're ready to move to the next point, I wouldnt mind exploring the person of "Dabar Yahweh" ("The Word of God") particularly in reference to Genesis 15:1-3

The plural as I have been told was used at the time of these writings and the Jewish people used them to show how great God really was. Anyway, right after God supposedly talked things over with a thought in his mind (Jesus or Logos) and a spirit. In the next verse what does God do? So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. This to me seems like an opportune time to make it known at creation that they created man in their own image. I know that you all say that God is three persons in One God, but the tie-ins to polytheism are just too great for me to fathom. I was shown this truth not to long ago and it has become somewhat of a mission to help others see where true trinitarianism leads to.

[Unico]

For me, Jesus' proclamation was enough.

When He said that the Father is the ONLY true God... that's very much enough.

Lord Jesus, the Son, precisely is not the Father...

The Father is the ONLY true God (according to Jesus Himself)...

Therefore, the Son (nor the holy spirit), is definitely not the TRUE God.

Edited January 17, 2006 by Unico

[Brother Chad]

For me, Jesus' proclamation was enough.

When He said that the Father is the ONLY true God... that's very much enough.

Lord Jesus, the Son, precisely is not the Father...

The Father is the ONLY true God (according to Jesus Himself)...

Therefore, the Son (nor the holy spirit), is definitely not the TRUE God.

The statement of Jesus not being the Father is not all together true. Jesus specifically said that "the Father and I are one" and "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father". Jesus was both fully man and fully devine. He was God manifested in flesh. (I Timothy 3:16) He was not God the Son, He was the Son of God in His humanity and He was God the Father in His divinity.

[EricH]

For me, Jesus' proclamation was enough.

When He said that the Father is the ONLY true God... that's very much enough.

Lord Jesus, the Son, precisely is not the Father...

The Father is the ONLY true God (according to Jesus Himself)...

Therefore, the Son (nor the holy spirit), is definitely not the TRUE God.

The statement of Jesus not being the Father is not all together true. Jesus specifically said that "the Father and I are one" and "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father". Jesus was both fully man and fully devine. He was God manifested in flesh. (I Timothy 3:16) He was not God the Son, He was the Son of God in His humanity and He was God the Father in His divinity.

Actually it is true. Jesus never claimed to be the Father. He claimed to be one with the Father (one in diety). What you are essentially posing here is modalism. It states that because God is one, He could not possibly exist in 3 persons. So modalism posits that each of the persons of the God-head is not a person, but is a modal expression of God. God appeared as the Son. God functions as the Spirit. This view stresses the unity of God (which is a good thing), but ignores passages that describe members of the trinity interacting with one another(for example the Son praying to the Father). Currently there is only one non-catholic denomination that holds to this position: the United Pentecostal Church.

[Joe@actsii]

For me, Jesus' proclamation was enough.

When He said that the Father is the ONLY true God... that's very much enough.

Lord Jesus, the Son, precisely is not the Father...

The Father is the ONLY true God (according to Jesus Himself)...

Therefore, the Son (nor the holy spirit), is definitely not the TRUE God.

The statement of Jesus not being the Father is not all together true. Jesus specifically said that "the Father and I are one" and "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father". Jesus was both fully man and fully devine. He was God manifested in flesh. (I Timothy 3:16) He was not God the Son, He was the Son of God in His humanity and He was God the Father in His divinity.

Actually it is true. Jesus never claimed to be the Father. He claimed to be one with the Father (one in diety). What you are essentially posing here is modalism. It states that because God is one, He could not possibly exist in 3 persons. So modalism posits that each of the persons of the God-head is not a person, but is a modal expression of God. God appeared as the Son. God functions as the Spirit. This view stresses the unity of God (which is a good thing), but ignores passages that describe members of the trinity interacting with one another(for example the Son praying to the Father). Currently there is only one non-catholic denomination that holds to this position: the United Pentecostal Church.

I have already said this in another post, but will say it again. Actually as an Oneness Pentecostal, I can tell you that I am not a modalist. I am a monotheist. There is a difference. I believe in different manifestations of God, not different modes. God can manifest Himself in countless ways at the same time.