The Trinity?

[BlindSeeker]

The implication you made in God justifying himself is that he made angels before men and higher than men, to justify the creation of man who would, by deliberate action, fall into sin.

I have absolutely no idea how you made that absurd judgment about what I said. If you can successfully cut and paste that from my post go ahead.

. . . You then chose to support this with unrelated passages, which deal with Yeshua personally, not "mankind" . . .

Really? Nothing to do with mankind? Perhaps you would like to look again and reconsider your statement . . .

Ps 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;

8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

Are you going to tell me that both the

[BlindSeeker]

The passage in corinthians deals with resurrection and the resurrection body. It contrasts celestial bodies with terrestrial bodies as we plainly see, and also shows that on our resurrection we will be the bearers of a body which occupies both states of being, terrestrial and heavenly, th restoration of our original being as Adam and Eve were before the fall.

Neither of these passages indicate that we were created less than angels, or that our final eternal place will be less than they.

You are replacing the words

[apothanein kerdos]

Shall I take your silence to what I had to say as a concession?

[BlindSeeker]

But before that, I just want to ask some idea from you on how you understand the expression "image of God"? Why do we believe we are created in "God's likeness"?

What is this "image" that we have as God's creations?

There are no other beings on earth that possess reasoning skills on an abstract level. Mankind is capable of making moral choices. We are able to form written and audible language. No other creature can do that. We have (on a lesser level than God) creative skills. We are able to take matter and use it from and in a sense "create." No other creature has that attribute. We are able to fellowship and commune with God in a way that no other creature can. We were created for that purpose.

[BlindSeeker]

Shall I take your silence to what I had to say as a concession?

No.

It is simply a matter of time constraints and it wasn't your turn yet . . . but you are next.

[BlindSeeker]

If God created us in His image AND the angels image, this puts God and the Angels on the same ontological level, which of course, is a HUGE heresy. It states that God and the Agnels are metaphysically equal....

Yes, if you want to stretch the meaning of

[BlindSeeker]

. . . Therefore, for us to be created in the image of Angels would mean we would have to hold the same duality.

That is your narrow deduction and not my statement or position.

Adding onto this, "image of God" is not merely a physical attribute, but also an emotional one. This would mean that Angels would have the ability to create, have emotion, free will, to sin, to need fellowship, etc.

Again, that is like saying if I created a replica of a fish out of stone it should be able to swim and eat and reproduced. Ridiculous . . . but just because it can

[BlindSeeker]

Mr 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

Is this an angel or a young man?

It would be an angel who had taken on the appearance of a man . . .

So you are saying angels are shape-shifters?

. . . If the point you are getting at is that we are made like unto an angel, consider the following:

Revelation 19:10

Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Clearly the angel in question here was a remarkable being, quite unlike anything human!

You do not know nor does the scriptures indicate if the angel was

[apothanein kerdos]

Yes, if you want to stretch the meaning of

[Guest NewPilgrim]

Blindseeker, it is hard to pay attention to "exactly" what you are saying when your expressions are not exact and when you have seemingly tried to put forward your point using a topic which you revoked yourself as being irrelevant to the OP. So perhaps for the benefit of us all, you could re-itterate in simple and accurate language exactly what point you are trying to make?

Son of Man: I'll admit I jumped the gun a little on it and I apologise for that. I did also however make the point that it does not effect the premise I was addressing, that it talks about being placed lower, rather than created lower than the angels. Man was made lower than angels when he entered into sin. Yeshua, likewise took on this same limitation when he became man in the flesh. He commands angels now and commanded them during his time with us, we too are able to do the same, through the authority of the Father, just as Yeshua did all things through the authority of the Father. That is his example to us. To empty ourselves and to do all things by the power and authority of our creator God.

The passages remain prophetic as well as contemporary to the writer. "Son of Man" a title used of Yeshua and that Yeshua used of himself, "crowned with glory" indeed as he has been, "all things beneath his feet" the Father makes a footstool of his enemies. The passage you quoted from Hebrews explains just this:

Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

You are replacing the words "lower than" with "less tan." A person with the rank of a private in the military certainly is "lower than" a Captain as far as authoritative ability, but he is not "less than" the captain as a being.

Then your examples are poor. Make an image of yourself and then tell me that the painting, photo, sculpture is of equal or greater worth/value/ability than you are. An image is less than the thing it represents. Or would you suggest that we are equal to or greater than God? - I've heard that somewhere before.

"A person with the rank of a caretaker in creation certainly is 'lower than' the Creator as far as authoritative ability, but he is not 'less than' the Creator as a being" - This is how your logic reads when applied to God's decalaration "Let us make man in our image"

(NewPilgrim @ Jan 20 2006, 06:33 PM)

In the verse above "justified in the spirit", refers to Yeshua's baptism where God declared him to be his son, with whom he is pleased. The stamp of righteousness is officially upon him. It is not God justifying reason for action as you implied.

Perhaps you can substantiate your assertions regarding I Tim. 3:16 and Jesus' baptism with something more than your say-so . . . as well as your inaccuracy of my misperceived "implication."

Justified (Greek:dikaioo)

1) to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

(to be "Justified in Spirit" = to be declared righteous in spirit, as exhibited, in this case, by descent of the Holy Spirit and Gods own proclamation)

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

I personally find it difficult to accept that God would have created a spiritual being higher than man after Adam's creation, but I can easily see the wisdom of God creating man " little lower than the angels" for the justifying of Himself after the rebellion of the fallen angels.

If I am mistaken in intrpreting your words here, then please explain what you mean by Angels being created "higher" than man, what you mean by God "justified himself" after some of them fell and why he chose to do it by "creating man lower than angels". Also your scriptural basis for your reasons in saying this

Perhaps I'm the only one, but it did sound an awful lot to me as though you were implying that God created the angels, some of whom messed up, so God created man lower than the angels so that when man also fell, God would somehow be justified.

For there to have only been God in the beginning, and then God created man in terrestrial form with his physical limitations, it does not seem likely that God would then create celestial angels with their abilities

You believe that God creates Higher things first and lower things last? is that what you are saying? you find it hard to believe that God would "save the best for last"? as it were

let me substitute a few words and show you how ludicrous this logic sounds:

For there to have only been God in the beginning, and then God created animals in terrestrial form with their limitations, it does not seem likely that God would then create men with their abilities

I assume that you believe the scriptures that we are above all creatures on earth, seeing as you quoted some appropriate passages, but by your logic, it seems unlikely that God would create animals first and Man afterwards since in your mind, it seems, he likes to make the "higher" things first and the "lower" things afterward. Yet he did.

Edited January 22, 2006 by NewPilgrim