What should I do?

[apothanein kerdos]

Colosians 4:6

Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.

I know that the Lord has given us our parents for a purpose. Usually what our parents command us and nag us about are weaknesses that we have. If we abide in Christ Jesus then our obediance to our parents will give us blessings on the earth.

However, honor and obediance to parents has nothing to do with being led by them. Romans 8:14 "Because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God". We are led by the Spirit of God. If a child's parents are satanist should the child follow wherever they go?...this is being led by our parents. Of course not.

Katie, you can speak directly to both your parents and the pastor. Remember that we should please God and not man.

I would have to respectfully disagree with this...

"In my opinion, it is not your place to forego your parents to confront the pastor. If your parents were in agreement and gave you permission, that would be another story. "

Matthew 4:21-22

....he [Jesus] saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. There were in a boat with their father Zebedee, preparing their nets. Jesus called them, and IMMEDIATELY they left the boat and their father and FOLLOWED him.

If the Lord prompts you to speak with your pastor, you should follow Him. Imagine if James and John didn't follow Christ but stayed with their father... They would have missed out on a lot.

What's more important; the individual or the family unit?

[Kabowd]

Colosians 4:6

Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.

I know that the Lord has given us our parents for a purpose. Usually what our parents command us and nag us about are weaknesses that we have. If we abide in Christ Jesus then our obediance to our parents will give us blessings on the earth.

However, honor and obediance to parents has nothing to do with being led by them. Romans 8:14 "Because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God". We are led by the Spirit of God. If a child's parents are satanist should the child follow wherever they go?...this is being led by our parents. Of course not.

Katie, you can speak directly to both your parents and the pastor. Remember that we should please God and not man.

I would have to respectfully disagree with this...

"In my opinion, it is not your place to forego your parents to confront the pastor. If your parents were in agreement and gave you permission, that would be another story. "

Matthew 4:21-22

....he [Jesus] saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. There were in a boat with their father Zebedee, preparing their nets. Jesus called them, and IMMEDIATELY they left the boat and their father and FOLLOWED him.

If the Lord prompts you to speak with your pastor, you should follow Him. Imagine if James and John didn't follow Christ but stayed with their father... They would have missed out on a lot.

Not only is this terrible advice, it's a misapplication of these Scriptures. Geeze...

[Work in Progress]

Katie, bless you sister! What a tough position you are in. I have a feeling God is planning great things for you.

My initial reaction/advice is to let it go and just "put in your time" until you can leave there. You know the truth and they can not change that. BUT -

If the matter is really that heavy on your heart, and you feel that God is convicting you to do something about it, then I would obey God and attempt to speak with your Pastor. I would make it as low-key as possible and not ask for a special "formal" appointment, but wait for an opportunity to arrise when you can say - "Hey, can I talk to you alone for a minute?" and then say that you've really been bothered by something and wanted to talk it over. Very non-confrontational. Don't put the Pastor on the defensive with the word "you" - like - "when you do this, or you say that" - make it more like "I am really uncomfortable when we as a church do this........especially since the Bible says this.........

Once you have discussed it, if the Pastor will not hear you, "shake the dust off" as we say. You have obeyed God and you can rest in that.

Two things - PRAY before talking to the Pastor and do not go around discussing this with others, trying to drum up support. That can only come back to bite you.

God bless you, Katie.

[felix]

Kerdo, you asked "What's more important; the individual or the family unit?"

Importance is in this order...

1) God

2) Family

3) The Individual

God is paramount, it is above all things. If you leave out God then you are denying everything. For in this way of thinking would Abraham have obeyed God's command to kill his only son Isaac? Abraham would not only be losing the son of which he waited so long for but would also be committing murder. God's command is therefore greater than what WE think is right. It is obediance to God first, not man.

Tess:

Please show me why this is terrible advice...that we follow God first and not our parents. Are you speaking against me because I have disagreed with you?

Edited January 23, 2006 by felix

[apothanein kerdos]

YOu didn't answer the question. Which is more important; the individual or the family unit?

If God is paramount and first, then she is responsible to her family first before she is responsible to herself. This is Biblical, and there is no ammount of twisting you can do to accomplish a different conclusion. Yes, she must accept Christ above her family, but this does not translate into her confronting her pastor without her family's approval (she is still under eighteen and not an adult).

[Kabowd]

Tess:

Please show me why this is terrible advice...that we follow God first and not our parents. Are you speaking against me because I have disagreed with you?

I'm not speaking against you, I'm speaking against your advice. The reason it's terrible advice is because:

1. Our parents are our authority, given by God, they are there to LEAD us. Raising children involves leadership. This is just obvious. Of course we are to be "led by the Spirit" but this does not cancel out the leadership of our parents. Their leadership is God-given. Obeying them is being led by the Spirit.

2. Of course our obedience to God should come first. Should our parents ever direct us to do something contrary to Scripture (that would directly disobey God), only then are we given liberty to disobey them.

3. This situation does not constitute them leading her contrary to God. They have not instructed her to do something against God. Therefore, the whole issue of them vs. God is not relevant.

4. The reference to James and John would perhaps apply if we were talking about initial acceptance of Christ. As in, when they left to "follow Jesus", they were saved. KatieK is already a follower of Christ. She does pursue Christ and "follow" Him. Thus, there is no contradiction with the verse. It does not, however, apply if you are trying to use it to justify disobedience to authority.

[felix]

YOu didn't answer the question. Which is more important; the individual or the family unit?

If God is paramount and first, then she is responsible to her family first before she is responsible to herself. This is Biblical, and there is no ammount of twisting you can do to accomplish a different conclusion. Yes, she must accept Christ above her family, but this does not translate into her confronting her pastor without her family's approval (she is still under eighteen and not an adult).

I did answer your question...

Which is more important? It is God first, Family second, and the Individual last. I do not see what you are objecting to...again..1)God 2)Family 3)Individual. God is paramount...which would mean if God commanded me to follow Him and in doing so I would have to deny the desires of my parents (ie where THEY want to LEAD me) or Family then that is wrong.

If God prompts us (in this case Katie) to confront the pastor and our family disapproves then are we not disobeying God? Your thinking is very soulish and worldly, namely that she is still under eighteen and not an adult. When we speak for the Lord we are not doing anything for ourselves or our family, it's simply for God.

Testimonies I know:

There is a brother who serves the Church full-time. His life is wholly given to the Lord. Before he was called to do this he encountered resistance from his parents. His parents knew that he would be poor; his mother sought him in tears to not do this. Now his parents were both christians. But he obeyed God's calling and is now sheparding many children.

There was a very mighty saint used by God. His name was Sundar Singh. His parents were Hinduist. Sundar found that Jesus was the only way, truth, and life. His father would not accept this. In this time Sundar would be cut off and exiled from the family if he did not convert back to their family's religion. Sundar made a choice; he cut off his hair. This was a denial of his religion. In front of his father and household, he declared that he was a servant of Christ. Sundar was no longer a son. That night Sundar slept on the hard ground in the cold. But he was so happy to belong to God. From that day forth he fulfilled his calling from God.

In both these cases God's calling was above that of the family's. That is the point. It is not anything complicated. So I will leave it to that.

Tess...

I'm not speaking against you, I'm speaking against your advice. The reason it's terrible advice is because:

1. Our parents are our authority, given by God, they are there to LEAD us. Raising children involves leadership. This is just obvious. Of course we are to be "led by the Spirit" but this does not cancel out the leadership of our parents. Their leadership is God-given. Obeying them is being led by the Spirit.

John 1:12,13

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

You say "Obeying them[parents] is being led by the Spirit." If I am led by the Spirit to preach the gospel and my parents who are not christian tell me not to...should I obey? There are many people in this situation, especially in places where christian persecution is public.

2. Of course our obedience to God should come first. Should our parents ever direct us to do something contrary to Scripture (that would directly disobey God), only then are we given liberty to disobey them.

Not just scripture but to the LEADING of the Holy Spirit. The point was not about disobeying parents...but being led by the Spirit. Katie's parents may not have commanded katie not to confront the pastor but it is their desire or wish that Katie does nothing. It is not in this negative connotation you are presenting "liberty to disobey". It is obediance to God first and living by the Spirit.

3. This situation does not constitute them leading her contrary to God. They have not instructed her to do something against God. Therefore, the whole issue of them vs. God is not relevant.

You do not know that the parents are leading her contrary to God. You also do not know what the parents have instructed her to do. You therefore cannot make any conclusions on whether things are relevant or not. It will be between Katie and God.

4. The reference to James and John would perhaps apply if we were talking about initial acceptance of Christ. As in, when they left to "follow Jesus", they were saved. KatieK is already a follower of Christ. She does pursue Christ and "follow" Him. Thus, there is no contradiction with the verse. It does not, however, apply if you are trying to use it to justify disobedience to authority.

If you think this is misinterpreted, I do not have any objections to that. My advice for Katie is still the same: obey God first, obey parents second, obey your own desires last; follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and not that of your parents' or yourselves. However I do object to the fact that no one, who has disagreed with me, has shown me any scripture. These are just opinions born from the mind of man. If you disagree and explain why, then there is no transgression. However, when you disagree (or more accurately attack) through ad hominems, ad hocs, and plain opinions with NO scriptural support, then this is JUDGEMENT.

Tess, you said "this was terrible advice and a misapplication of scripture...geeze". This is an ad hominem, an attack particular against me. For there is a difference when one says "I respectfully disagree" to "this is terrible advice!" And especially with no further support what so ever.

You argument above is, in my opinion, ad hoc.

This is all I will say here before this thread gets off topic. If you still do not agree and think I am in error then please PM me. If you see something wrong then I would like to be corrected. However, if your heart only seeks to spill out ad hominems and ad hocs then your efforts will be in vain.

Edited January 23, 2006 by felix

[apothanein kerdos]

If God prompts us (in this case Katie) to confront the pastor and our family disapproves then are we not disobeying God? Your thinking is very soulish and worldly, namely that she is still under eighteen and not an adult. When we speak for the Lord we are not doing anything for ourselves or our family, it's simply for God.

You're missing the entire point. You think that if a person's "personal conviction" is God is leading them to confront, then they should just ignore their family. I'm saying you place way too much emphasis upon a person's guidance (especially at 14) and not enough on the Bible. Again, you lack biblical precidence for this. I could care less about testimonies either. Expirience means nothing in light of Biblical truth. Under your application, if her parents tell her not to befriend certain people (as a core group), but her desire is to befriend them and she "feels" the Holy Spirit guiding her, she would be justified in disobeying her parents based upon her feelings. Christianity isn't about feelings....

[LightningEast2West]

David and Goliath?

KatieK,

You can't be the only one who feels this way in your church, there must be others who see the deception. I say strength in numbers (and God is a big number! ) try talk to other church members, I'm sure you'll find some who agree with you but are also unsure of what to do. If you do find others like you then you should gather together and approach the pastor and the pastor must show you Biblical proof of her statements. God has given you this right!!! Regardless of how young you are you still deserve the truth of God and anyone who tells you a different story other than God's Word must be approached. Talk to your parents and explain your point to them, ask them what they think.

WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! DANGER, WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!

This is VERY BAD ADVICE!!!

The LAST thing you want to do is 'sneak around behind the leader's back'! In your shoes, I think your only alternative at this point is to arrange your Scriptural arguments on a piece of paper, and ask to discuss them with YOUR PARENTS. They are the ones who can make a decision at this time; NOT YOU! You are under their authority and responsibility in this matter, and if they choose to do nothing, you must wait until they grant you the freedom of going to church where you want to.

Gee, Leonard, thanks for slamming my advice. You have no tact.

But if you check my last sentence, I give similar advice to what you've just given.

And seeing KatieK's last post about her parents not really being Christians, then perhaps some of my advice might hold some water.

Perhaps her next best step is to try and get her parents interested in Jesus and with prayer they'll become more truthfully involved and more aware of the dangers of what's being preached at their church. WARNING WARNING or is this also VERY BAD ADVICE??

[felix]

Kerdos and Tess, if you would still like to discuss this I would recommend that you PM me to keep this thread on topic. I know that man wants to appear justified in the light of others...but we truly only need to be justified in the light of God.

For the record, I would like to say that I sought vindication here...perhaps my lastest post was not necessary for Jesus Christ but necessary for me. If you feel it would be better for you that I remove it then tell me and I will remove it.

I will be in prayer.