Rewards

[Guest NewPilgrim]

For one who does not maintain and work out their own salvation with fear and trembling they have stopped watching

I stand corrected, you didnt add to scripture, you fused and abused it.

Titus, as you quoted, entreats us to maintain good works, not salvation, as was your implication in the above quote.

Perhaps you would allow everyone to "mix and match" verses in order to serve their own agenda. You do your cause no favours by resorting to such slight of hand, but then discredit to foul doctrine is not such a bad thing.

You're only offense to me is that your cause in this matter discredits the word of my God, brands him a liar, diminishes in your own mind and the minds of others his authority over his bride and his sovereignty and his abilty to make and maintain his covenants and his promises. This same cause is an author of confusion and frankly disgusts me. I have nothing personally against you OC, but any foul or poor doctrine which may find its way to our bretheren via you, me or anyone. None of us are perfect and none of us are correct on all counts, but the word of God is. And the simplicity of his word speaks for itself. I trully hope you and others in the same camp are freed from the bondage of this false understanding that has put a grip on you.

You would do well to live not just by Philippians 2:12, but verse 13 also.

Edited February 12, 2006 by NewPilgrim

[Openly Curious]

For one who does not maintain and work out their own salvation with fear and trembling they have stopped watching

I stand corrected, you didnt add to scripture, you fused and abused it.

Titus, as you quoted, entreats us to maintain good works, not salvation, as was your implication in the above quote.

Perhaps you would allow everyone to "mix and match" verses in order to serve their own agenda. You do your cause no favours by resorting to such slight of hand, but then discredit to foul doctrine is not such a bad thing.

You're only offense to me is that your cause in this matter discredits the word of my God, brands him a liar, diminishes in your own mind and the minds of others his authority over his bride and his sovereignty and his abilty to make and maintain his covenants and his promises. This same cause is an author of confusion and frankly disgusts me. I have nothing personally against you OC, but any foul or poor doctrine which may find its way to our bretheren via you, me or anyone. None of us are perfect and none of us are correct on all counts, but the word of God is. And the simplicity of his word speaks for itself. I trully hope you and others in the same camp are freed from the bondage of this false understanding that has put a grip on you.

You would do well to live not just by Philippians 2:12, but verse 13 also.

Hello NewPilgrim,

I'm glad you seen your error, and Titus does entreat us to maintain good works just as I said in my post and as you have thus acknowledged I said.

I never once implied that these "good works" that Titus was talking about was how one "received their salvation" from God. For the record that is not what I'm saying at all.

A person comes to Christ by "faith" and confesses their sins to God (Romans 10:8-17) and God gives them "grace" and grants them forgiveness thus restoring the broken relationship.

"We are saved through "faith" by "grace" according as Ephesians 2:8 says. There is absolutely nothing I could have "done" (any kind of work) that could bring me "salvation" from God ("nothing") as I have said within my posts. Salvation is a free gift from God and is something I simply receive.

But receiving salvation from God (being the atonement for my sins) is only the start of my relationship with God. It is herein that the "work out" part comes into the picture in Philippians 2:12.

We are told to walk out our profession.

Well what is it that I'm professing?

I'm professing that I am a born again believer that I have received the free gift of eternal life and am now a Christian.

That being the case I am a disciple of Christ a "follower" of the things of God now that I'm saved from my sins.

Would you agree with that?

Now for me to be a "follower of Christ" there are some things I have to now "Do" (works) yes that ugly word "works."

When I was a dirty rotten sinner I had the "works" back then to prove that I was indeed a sinner and I had my bad fruit (which was unto death eternal damnation was in my future in other words) to show it in the eyes of others. You shall know a tree by the fruit that it bears. Just as I said when I was a previous sinner my tree was bad and I had bad fruit for others to see.

But it's all different now and I have to bear good fruit (fruit unto life) on my tree now.

Jesus said if ye love me "Keep My Commandments" well brother I interpret that to mean I got some "things to do" (works) now that I'm a followerer.

I'm told in the word to "Put off" the old man and "Put on" the new man (Ephesians 4:22,24 : Colossians 3:5-17)

I am told to "Mortify" (which means to put to death) the members of my body I am not to do the sinful deeds (works of the old man) that I did when I was a sinner (Colossians 3:5) now that I'm a professing Christian.

I am told to "put on" the whole armor of God according to Ephesians 6.

I am told to do many things in the word of God.

If I obey what I have been told in the word of God to do then this is me "working out my own salvation" according to the truth contained in God's word for me to do.

This "work" is not what I do prior to receiving salvation to obtain it but it is the "work" I do after receiving salvation through faith.

If I am to abide in the vine (Jesus being the vine) then that is something I have to "Do" after salvation for I literally have to "Abide" (stay) in the vine.

If it is those that endure to the end that shall be saved according to the scriptures then they have to "endure" that is something they "have to Do" in this life to get the prize of the high calling of God.

So one has to live out their faith not just talk it. And for one to live out their faith that they claim they have then they have to become "A doer" (worker) of the word and not just be a "hearer" only (someone who just listens with no works to back their faith up a dead faith).

A good tree will bring forth good fruit and it's by their fruit you will know who God's people are because they "put into practice" what God has taught them in the word and other people will see the "Light" (Jesus) in their lives.

So the "Be Careful To Maintain Good Works" in Titus 3:8 is meaning "after" salvation and not "before"

I hope this clarifies my position somewhat better to you.

I do strongly believe in rightly dividing the word of truth and it is not for any kind of agenda or else I could say the same about your posts in this regards to mixing and matching as you've stated about me.

I do not think that I have fused or abused the word of God as you claim and if I have then maybe you are a little guilty as well in this avenue for I have done the same as you just simply sharing my opinion with you as you have yours with me. If you don't want to agree that's fine no problem because I have the same freedom.

I do not undermine Christ authority over the Bride of Christ nor do I undermine His Sovernity nor do I undermine Christian leadership but instead I "treasure" these things very deeply within my heart and I am sorry that you feel that way.

I have never claimed that any of us are perfect or ever will be for that matter nor have I claimed that we as humans can't sometimes be wrong. But I do believe we must all strive to enter in at the gate and we must stay on that narrow road that leads to that gate of pearl.

As far a Philippians 2 and verse 13 goes well, I can assure you that the "good pleasure" of His will in my life is top priority.

"But Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His Righteous and all these things shall be added unto you." (Matthew 6:33)

For I have no worry NewPilgrim that the good pleasure of His will will in fact be added into my life as well.

In His Stead

Openly Curious

[Keith]

In no way do I mean to take away from the good question of this thread, because it's a valid question that a lot of people have. Many are even embarrassed to ask it because they may feel like they are into Christianity for the rewards and that "seems" selfish to them.

Having been a victim of the Word of Faith movement for years, (which is very reward motivated), I struggled with this rewards thing for a long time! Like those I mentioned above, I didn't want to seem like I was being selfish, but, sure, I would like to be rewarded! Who wouldn't? It got to the point that I couldn't do any nice thing for anyone without the thought crossing my mind, "I wonder what reward this bring?" I was sooo ashamed of myself. I finally recognized that to be an attack from the enemy because in my heart I truly felt that I don't care if I'm ever rewarded. It seems enough for me to be saved from an eternity in hell.

As I once heard someone say, "I would rather be a doorman at the gates of heaven than to not be there at all." That's how I feel. If God rewards me, then I will accept those rewards in His honor because it's only through Him that I could have them anyway. And, if there is any way of using those eternal rewards to glorify Him even more, then I yearn to do so!

[Guest NewPilgrim]

Butero, thankyou for taking the time to analyse my study in detail. I've been debating this issue so long now that I'm becoming weary of it and the saddness and frustration I feel from the evident lacking in faith of those who continually labour the points you and others in the same/similar camps have been making has deeply stricken my spirit this last few weeks. I need to rest from it and renew some of my faculties, lest I find it drawing me unto an unrighteous attitude of contempt.

However I will attempt to address, tho somewhat briefly, your eloquent rebuttals. But rather than go through verse by verse again, I will rather say this. Youre points would be quite valid, to me at least, if I thought we had the same understaning of belief, faith, grafting in, roots, "bretheren" and Israel.

There were some verses I quoted as implicating those who do not believe, which you understand to be dealing with believers. The crux of your point was that in the Israel comparison, they lost their belief had it stolen or lay it down and that we should apply that same principal to believers in Christ. Your first incorrect assumption was that thos people were saved under God by proxy of the fact that they were Gods chosen people, and had faith and belief by the same proxy. The contrary is quite apparent in the scripture not only by the fact that faithlessness and unbelief is frequently highlighted in the Old Testament but also that the author(s) of Heberews made the same observation that the Law was not mixed with faith in them.

You also quoted the parable of the sower and alluded to the parable of the vine, yet none of these passages mention belief faith or salvation. What they deal with is the evidences of the plants/branches. Some never respond at all, others receive well but wither away etc...

The believer here is indicated by the one which hears, understands and bears fruits, which again supports the common thread of my study which is "By their fruits shall ye know them"

On the vine, some branches are grafted in and bear no fruits, they are the same as the seed which was choked from the start. Some bear fruits for a while but the fruit whithers and dies and they are cast off, these are the seed which grew for a while but whithered and died, but the vine which bears fruit is the one that is upheld by the root of the vine.

Simply put, you dont have to be saved to serve God and be blessed, only obedient, you dont have to believe in Yeshua to enjoy a taste of the true perfection of the new heaven and earth to come, which you taste by having fellowship with believers and by witnessing how God works and by hearing the gospel. Not everyone who has fellowship with believers also believes or do you believe that every church family across the world consists ONLY of believers, only of those who are saved. The bible tells us that there are even those amongst us who would be pretenders to our inheritance, who actually intend to deceive us and lead us astray.

Finally, despite your protestations, your understanding of salvation would seem to indicate that although salvation is "instigated" by Yeshua, we someohow need to maintain it by works and therefore if your works cease then your salvation also will cease. If this is indeed the case, your view like others on this board is based on a mirror mage of the true "cause and effect" of belief and salvation. We are saved by belief in Yeshua and it is this salvation which he grants us by our belief which maintains US. The Faith of which GOD is the author, the works that he compells US to do through our love of him and desire for his glory, the fruits which are evidence of the salvation we have which are fed from the root of the TRUE VINE.

If believe that any of your works in any way maintain your salvation or prevent the loss of it then your doctrine is salvation by works, regardless of how eloquently you protest.

God does not predestine, call, justify and glorify those who would disgrace his name. God does not seal with the Holy Spirit one who is more powerful than he and can break that seal, because there IS none more powerful than he, and God does not Guarantee the inheritance of the kingdom of Heaven for a mere man to contradict his promises and brand God a liar. Do you still not understand that you are a new creation? do you not understand that you are a purchased posession? Do you not understand the soveriegnty of God over the believing, not just in the temporal sense but in the eternal sense. HE will NOT ALLOW you to throw down your salvation, he will NOT ALLOW you perish by lack of fruits and he will NOT ALLOW you to bring shame upon his sacrifice an his Holy Name. If you fail to understand, believe and/or accept that your life is no longer yours to do with as you please, then you fall short of the Glory of God. You are his purchased bride, purchased at so dear and eternal a cost, and in submission to him in ALL THINGS. If any man claim to be saved and deny these things, I hastily advise them to examine themselves.

I do not mean disrespect, but my posting on this thread is finished.

Shalom

Edited February 15, 2006 by NewPilgrim