1 Samuel 15:3 - God orders people to kill babies

[ted]

Sorry, you wrote that as I was writing my last post, so you didn't get to see my most recent answers.

Check them out and send me a PM if you are still confused about my position, or have any questions.

But, because you wrote that last bit before I posted mine, I'll do my best to give a quick, easy answer to what I think your question is....

I am a father to my 13 year old son. When he was younger, I dealt with him in different ways. Spanking was used as a means to correct really bad behavior, for example.

Today, he is much bigger and wiser (most times) and spanking would produce little in the way of instruction or correction. I use other means to achieve results today, such as grounding, etc..

Same ol' Dad, but some of my methods have changed over time, and they will change again later on in life, obviously.

I am the same man, but my methods of correction have changed as I saw fit.

Although I can, in no way, be compared to God, I use myself as a simple example of what I am talking about.

Hope this clears things up.

Please PM if you still need more clarity.

Thanks, and God Bless!

t.

[Copper Scroll]

I am a father to my 13 year old son. When he was younger, I dealt with him in different ways. Spanking was used as a means to correct really bad behavior, for example.

Today, he is much bigger and wiser (most times) and spanking would produce little in the way of instruction or correction. I use other means to achieve results today, such as grounding, etc..

Same ol' Dad, but some of my methods have changed over time, and they will change again later on in life, obviously.

Oh... so the argument is that God's interactions with us have changed because we have changed--not God. This seems like a decent argument, but I can't really see what is so different between us then and now. I'm not sure if I completely understand the partial explanation for this you provide a few posts back.

And I think the proper place for any further discussion on this is here--not in PM. It's well within the topic of this thread.

[ted]

And I think the proper place for any further discussion on this is here--not in PM. It's well within the topic of this thread.

Let me start with this one, first.

I didn't want to draw any away from the discussion, or change the original concept of the thread by having some reply only to my points. That's one reason why I asked for PM's.

Another is that, in all honesty, I can get stupid at times, and I didn't want to focus to be on me, but to keep it on track.

So, I guess that if all are willing to remain on track, and I don't steer it away by my own ineptness, I reckon we can continue here.

These threads have a way of taking on their own lives, in a sense, and I just didn't want to distract from the OP.

Oh... so the argument is that God's interactions with us have changed because we have changed--not God.

That's partially what I was meaning, but not so much because we have changed, either.

There are many things which remain constant within humanity: Our inability to remain sinless, our constant rebellion against God, our sinful nature, etc.. These things have remained pretty much unchanged throughout history.

Even after we were given the Gift of God's salvation through Christ some 2000 years ago, mankind has remained, for the most part, in rebellion against God's plan for us.

So, my point was not so much that God has changed his dealings with us because mankind has changed, I guess it's more like God has a plan, and we can see several stages, or parts, of His plan as differences in the way He deals with us.

Perhaps Dispensations is the right word? Throughout God's dealings with mankind, He is bringing about His plan for us. Some of His plan has been revealed and have already occured, such as bringing the Messiah to Earth. Part of His plan for mankind calls for the return of the Messiah, or the Christ, and He will set up shop here forever. This part, of course, has not happened yet, and is for a future time (however long that may be from today) but it will happen just the same. When Jesus returns, the way God deals with us wil change, as well. A chapter will close, and a new one will begin, basically. During this time, God will deal with mankind in several ways which we do not now experience. The Judgement Seat is one example of this.

Now, some may say that "God has changed because he deals with us differently now" during that time, I'm sure, but He really won't change, will He? It will be the same eternal God, just dealing with us in different ways. I guess it's a matter of perspective, really. We have His plan spelled out for us in the Bible, but it doesn't describe everything to the smallest detail. So, some may mistake God as 'Changing" when, in reality, He only really set another part of His plan in motion. We may take this as change, to be sure, but not as Him Changing.

That was my only point in that regard.

As to the question of believing someone today that kills a child and then says that God made him do it, I'll have to remain on record with the opinion that I will tend not to believe him.

That may not be good enough for some people, but I'm sticking with it until God slaps me on the forehead and tells me I'm wrong.

Yes, God has ordered such actions in the past, but I don't think He does so today, although He certainly could if He wanted to.

Much like I don't believe Peter Popov when he tells me that God will bless me if I send him 20 bucks for a free vial of Miracle Water, I will tend not to believe someone if they say God told them to kill their family.

It doesn't pass the smell test.

I'm not saying that God hasn't done so in the past, nor could He do so now, if He wanted to, it's just that I don't think He does at this point in history.

I could be wrong, though, and I have to keep that in mind, as well.

I hope I addressed all the points in your last post, so I won't go through them quote by quote.

Just let me know if there is still something about my position which I failed to explain.

Again, I apologize for seeming rude in past posts.

I'll continue here in the thread as long as my doing so does not detract from the intention of the thread.

In other words, slap me around a little if I veer of course!

t.

[ted]

prove and qualify this with scripture. All you've brought is oppinion.

True enough.

So far, all I have brought to the table is my opinion in the matter.

It will take a little time to find Scripture to describe what I am saying, and I don't want to simply dig up stuff out of context, so please, be patient.

Thanks,

t.

[ted]

QUOTE

I didn't mean God changes or has changed.

I meant that His ways of dealing with us have changed a bit. The way He interacts with us, in other words.

prove and qualify this with scripture. All you've brought is oppinion.

Ok, here's a little bit of Scripture for what I am trying to say:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

And again, in the NT:

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

In these verses, I will attempt to explain my position.

Clearly, we can see that the Lord will usher in a "New Covenant" Now, immediately, some may say "Hey, God changed!! ", but we know that God does not change, right? What we see here is God setting up a new promise to us, one in which He will provide a Saviour.

The verses preceding Heb 6:8 (Heb 6:1-6) describe a "High Priest" (vs1) and a "minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle" (vs2). This describes Jesus, and under the New Covenant, Jesus becomes the mediator between God and mankind. To me, that's a lot different than what was used back in OT times. Back then, people were required to go to the Temple and the Priests would make sacrifices for them, right?

This New Covenant is certainly one way in which God deals with us differently than how He did in OT times.

Or, at least that's a point I was trying to make, anyway.

If I'm wrong, let me know.

As a side note, I think it's interesting to notice that God also has other plans, which will be different from today's, as well.

Notice Heb 8: 10-13....

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Look at how God will change another interesting thing. He states that He will put His laws into our minds, and write them in our hearts, so that nobody will have to teach anybody about God any more, for we shall know him without being told by virtue of His will alone!

Pretty cool, huh?

Anyway, there's an interesting point made in vs13. notice how the Lord says that the new convenant will make the first one old? Even to the point that it describes it as decaying and waxing away until it vanishes away?

Seems to me that God surely changes the way He deals with us, and will even do so again, before He is done. We still have not yet seen the returned Christ. Surely that will usher in a different way from what we have now, right?

Another point: When the new Heaven and Earth are established, and there is no more sin, death, or sickness, the need for repentance from sin will cease to be needed, right?

Perhaps God will change in the way He deals with us then, too? After all, there will no longer be a need for repentance of sin, because there will be no more sin, right?

Same God, implementing His plan on His own time table. Within His plan, He changes the ways He deals with us.

That was my point.

That, and I still won't trust someone today if he kills his children and claims God told him to do it.

Please let me know if I have explained myself in a way that leaves no doubt as to where I am coming from.

Thanks.

Have a great day!

t.

[Guest Godless Heathen]

Hi, I'm new here. A friend of mine told me to check this place out. Hope you don't mind if I just jump right in!

How would I know or not? Well, think about it for a minute. Do you think things have changed since the time of Saul? Does God work in the same manner as He did in those days?

Are you suggesting that your God has changed? I was under the impression that God is unchanging. This would make sense if it were omnipotent.

Tell me, in the past, say, 500 years or so, can you present an instance where God directly spoke to someone concerning wiping out entire nations, including infants?

How does anyone know anything about Gods interaction with man since the bible was canonized?

We are in an age right now where we have a mediator between us and God, and that mediator is Jesus, and it is through Him, we have our direction.

It is through Jesus' eye and guidance that we are to conduct our affairs.

Did Jesus not warn us that whoever shall harm a child will be punished?

So then you are suggesting that God HAS changed or that his disposition has changed or his sense of morality has changed. I'm confused by your statement that Jesus is a moderator between humans and God. I thought that the idea of the Trinity was that all three facets of God are one and one are 3. Jesus IS God (according to the triune system) therefore Jesus cannot be a "moderator" between us and himself. You're making a nonsensical statement unless I misunderstand the concept of the Christian trinity.

Are you implying that God will still, now, tell someone to kill a child for the sins of others?

Think hard.

Yes, I would be brave enough to say that one who kills a child and then claims that God told him to do it should be locked up, because something just ain't right about it.

So you claim to know the will or the mind of God?

The difference now, my friend, is that God deals with us in different ways now. Something big happened some 2,000 years ago, and it is through Jesus that God deals with us now.

Have you not noticed a change between the time of Saul and the present?

Not having been present during the time of Saul I would say that no one is qualified to determine.

Again, this is silly.

That's for sure.

[ted]

Godless Heathen,

Welcome to Worthy!

Please do the conversation in this thread two favors:

1. Read the previous pages to catch up. Most of the answers to your questions are in there somewhere, especially in the past few posts of mine.

2. Go play somewhere else, in another thread. We are trying to have a discussion here, and your little baiting questions have no bearing on the subject. If you truly are seeking God, please start another thread asking some questions that have not been answered yet.

Again, review the thread and I promise you that you will find most of the answers to your questions you have asked me in there somewhere.

Why you have decided to jump on my back, I'll never know, but if you would like to know Jesus, and learn enough to accept Him into your heart, then start another thread with those questions, or simply PM me and we can share the Gift of God's Salvation.

Have a great day.

t.

[Guest yod]

I've only gone through the first five pages of this thread but no one had the answer to this dilemna at that point so I'm skipping ahead.

Of course, those first five pages include the title: God orders people to kill babies, which you do not address in your post. What does the murder of little babies have to do with military strategy or justice/righteousness?

If you had read my post you would know.

God was judging the entire nation. Everyone and everything was defiled by their sin

The rest of the details are also in my post. Not sure why I'm wasting time on someone who doesn't want to see the answer though.

[Copper Scroll]

Every death ordered by God was either;

1. Military strategy - A nation/government is the sum total of its people.

I suppose the babies are included in this sum total, but I fail to see this is strategic militarily. And why didn't the sum total always include virgins?

He has judged many nations. When He someday judges America the righteous will also be affected. That's why we should learn the lessons of Katrina....but I'm not holding my breath.

...and I can't take this thing about the hurricane seriously at all.

2. Justice - Applies evenly to every individual based on their knowledge. He can be more severe on those of the tribes than to strangers. Outsiders are given more leeway because they are ignorant of the Law.

I guess you imply something here about babies, because they don't know anything... but I don't know what you are implying. What are you saying here?

This is war between beasts (nations) and it is to the death in some cases. God was ordering the nation of Amelek to be destroyed. They had been judged wanting...and were given plenty of time to repent. Every single person was defiled for Him to have ordered them destroyed instead of just the military (men) and this is why different "judgements" came on different nations.

This doesn't make much sense to me either. How can a baby repent?

Btw, NO WHERE does God condone rape. There is a law concerning how women taken as spoil are treated and Israel may have been the only humane society in history to that regard. This happened in a time much different than today. Trying to use carnal logic on the ancient world ignores the context making it impossible to interpret events of the Bible correctly.

So since the moral/ethical standards of the time was different, God's moral/ethical standards were different?

(spiritual interpretation)

It is given to us as a picture of how we are to deal ruthlessly and without hesitation when it comes to sin in "our" battleground.

Agreed.

As individuals, we have a different law than a government. If we would all obey these rules, there would be no wars but unfortunately there are those who don't care to submit to God. As individuals we are to forgive other individuals and bless them as much as it depends on us. A government is not given the mandate to "love their enemies"

scriptural support?

Edited February 27, 2006 by Copper Scroll

[Copper Scroll]

These threads have a way of taking on their own lives, in a sense, and I just didn't want to distract from the OP.

I agree and thank you for your response.

As to the question of believing someone today that kills a child and then says that God made him do it, I'll have to remain on record with the opinion that I will tend not to believe him.

That may not be good enough for some people, but I'm sticking with it until God slaps me on the forehead and tells me I'm wrong.

I wouldn't expect this to happen. People do things and think things I'm pretty sure God wouldn't approve of, but they never get their foreheads slapped. I'm told God waits until they die and then sends them to hell... forever.

Yes, God has ordered such actions in the past, but I don't think He does so today, although He certainly could if He wanted to.

Much like I don't believe Peter Popov when he tells me that God will bless me if I send him 20 bucks for a free vial of Miracle Water, I will tend not to believe someone if they say God told them to kill their family.

It doesn't pass the smell test.

I'm not saying that God hasn't done so in the past, nor could He do so now, if He wanted to, it's just that I don't think He does at this point in history.

I could be wrong, though, and I have to keep that in mind, as well.

We agree where it's important, I suppose, but much in this quote bugs me. You hold on to the possibility that God could order genocide to a point that I find uncomfortable. If a charismatic and persuasive "prophet" were to come along and say that we should wipe out Iran or Tanzania or the state of Vermont, he might have a chance at persuading you--I think. I don't think this guy should be given the opportunity to pass or fail any "smell test". Genocide is categorically wrong. It can't "smell" right.

Also, though you did a decent job of summarizing your view of God's plan, I don't see how the current stage is any less vulnerable to mob hits from heaven than the stage before Jesus came. What about the current stage makes you think it can't happen now?

Edited February 27, 2006 by Copper Scroll