Mankind- born good or evil?

[Guest truespirit]

"It is not possible for an unsaved person to do "good" without an evil motive, because they are "In the Flesh" and the only thing the Flesh is capable of is sin"

Like I said, even the unsaved can do good things yet these good things are still tainted with sin. As the Bible says that which is not from faith is sin.

I take a lot of interest in this exchange. I agree with both of the opinions here, even though on the surface they might appear to conflict one another a little bit.

If John Doe absolutely refutes any notion to speak of that God exists and that Jesus Christ was delivered to us by Him, but than still goes out to do "Good deeds" in front of the public (Either directly or by adverstising, etc) for the purposes of "Selling over" the public on the "Goodness" of his nature or some other alterior purpose, than one would think that both of these statements have truth to them.

I also believe that having faith in Jesus Christ is a mandatory rule for the Christian, obviously. Furthermore, the Bible tells us there is nothing we can do to please Him, in terms of the good deeds that we perform. If you do them but you're not a believer, you're bound to stay stuck in the rut, too, etc.

This is just a personal opinion now, but it's been a major part of my personal testimony since turning back to Him, so I would like to share it.

One of the first things I noticed coming from within after I started to pray was, well, what I can only describe to be a rebirth of my priorities and desires in life. After the months went by, the dreams of the mansion and fancy cars went away. It just happened like that, I still have no other rational way of explaining it. What took its place was a sudden desire to help others, be it financial comfort, emotional comfort, etc.

Just recently I paged through some of Matthew which gave me the oppurtunity to really see the impact of Christ's message on this this area in particular. We have all either heard about or personally noted that Jesus referenced our need to assist the poor well over 500 times in the New Testament. Clearly, this was a very important area to Him.

Jesus' efforts and views w/ helping others is the 2nd most meaningful messages of the Bible for me (IE-the message and proof of love that He most certainly has for us). The ultimate sacrifice that He made for us will always hold the greatest meaning.

I guess this is what I'm trying to say-our journey with Christ never ends. Many people here might just be in the beginning stages of their journey with Him. In my own case, in terms of the way that He answered my prayers, the first thing He did was to bring change to some of my perceptions in this area, to embrace the principles behind the countless acts of love that we know He offers.

I've never spoken with Pastor George here, but I thought he had posted an excellent sermon/essay on this website that appears to date back about a year and a half ago, one that mentions the need for us to embrace the full message of the Scripture- the power and meaning behind His message of love, in addition to the need we have to take into account the rules that we're supposed to be living by, too. I thought it was very well written, truthful.

But in this particular area of the "Good deeds" area of faith, this is only a personal opinion, so whether or not it has any application for others I don't know. But in my own case, the thing that keeps my faith going is the spirit and message of God's love. Once that is embraced, you're able to see the countless sacrifices that Jesus made for us, and the way that He did so with such love for His children. Once you come to cherish that message, there is a drive that surfaces from within to want to go out and do a few good things for others.

Had He not guided me to embrace the message of His love at first the way He did, I probably would have succomed to the message of fear at this point. That's not to say I believe that a person that doesn't acknowledge God but does good acts alone is living in line with the Bible's teachings (Again, George's article really covers this topic well, I thought). But on the same hand, I can't pretend to know where a Christian stands in his/her personal journey with Christ, either. Is the person doing these good deeds for others just beginning his/her journey, are they well into it, or do they mock God?

If it's the first scenario, is it my place to tell that person that their good deed means nothing to God? How do I know that God isn't showing them His message by drawing that person closer to Him by installing in them a desire to go out and do good works?

Certainly a big part of Christ's message was that we should help others, meaning that we sometimes have to shift our focus away from worrying about ourselves and on to helping others. I know of some cases where acts of goodness (Whether it is something that you do for another person, or something they themselves might do to help others) can be a way to learn about how to defeat sin, too. And certainly, in this day and age when so many call out for "Proof" of God's existance, it can be easy to miss the very showing of His proof by the nature of what comes through acts of goodness if such is being performed with purpose and meaning.

In the third example, those that do good but mock Him, those that do not believe, than the motive becomes very unclear. Unless "Goodness" is being used for a sadastic purpose or something clearly linked with a false teaching, than there's probably some manipulation there.

This is nothing more than a personal opinion on the matter. Though I have a lot of work to do yet as a Christian (The journey never ends, and the true journey has only begun in my case), I have to say that this has been one of the major reasons that I really feel comfortable at worthyboards. There are so many different web communities out there that seem to really drive home the fear antics. They acknowledge God's love in word, but I would be lying if I didn't tell you that I have seen many different forums, at least on the surface, that appear to dwell only on the "You musts" without ever embracing the true message of the love of Jesus Christ. That's not to say that both areas are not mandatory for us, it's only to say that we don't always understand how God is working with certain people, and at what point they are at in their journey.

While I have no doubt that "Evil" lies within all of mankind, I guess it would be hard to convince me that discounting the merits behind acts of goodness is the best thing to do in a few examples, either.

Jesus Christ comes first, that goes without saying. In order for the Christian to be able to discount an act of "Goodness" performed by any other, however, we better know that person doesn't believe in Jesus, or isn't actively trying to reach through to Him. Many are drawn to Him by the power and beauty of His heart, its unmatched love. The life of Jesus Christ, all of its loving meaning, is what draws many to Him. It's the very path toward belief for some. In my own case, it's the only way. After that, a person should be able to embrace the laws of life the Bible has for us a little better.

Edited February 6, 2006 by truespirit

[st. Worm]

"I think you may be a bit confused. As the first man created by God, Adam had no ancestors. We are the descendents of Adam, not his ancestors."

(Chuckle!) Thank you. SW was very tired when he typed that out and confused ancestor and descendent. I have seen some strange things here but the idea of Adam having ancestors would be interesting indeed!

[st. Worm]

"But the scripture I refer to quotes Jesus himself, and what Jesus says contradicts what you say above. Do you choose simply to neglect this scripture or is it flat out wrong? I am asking what your answer is to Matthew 25:31-46 and to Luke 10:25-37 if you think good deeds/charity/love do not matter to God and will not help one to attain eternal life."

As I said, you seem to be confusing law and gospel. If you believe doing the things commanded by Jesus in terms of feeding the hungry or giving drink to the thirsty will gain you entrance into Heaven, keep this in mind; each and every time you encounter someone hungry or thirsty or in any need whatsoever, you must stop and render service and you must do it perfectly and without failure. Fail to do that just one time and you will go to hell. Have a nice day and thanks for playing. The Law makes no allowances for mistakes or failure, not even one time. Now I don't know you but I would be willing to wager a lot of money that you have not met the requirements of the Law.

The Law is good but it is not a remedy for sin. Keeping the law or trying to keep it does nothing for us in terms of making it to Heaven. Only the Gospel and faith in Christ does that. As Phillip Melancthon said, the Law always accuses. Good works flow from faith to be sure. But works are never good enough to bring us before the Father. Only the righteousness of Christ does that.

If you believe your works are of value in gaining entrance to Heaven I would urge you reconsider what Christianity really is about and what the Gospel really means.

[Guest truespirit]

"If you believe your works are of value in gaining entrance to Heaven I would urge you reconsider what Christianity really is about and what the Gospel really means."

How can a Christian that truly embraces Jesus Christ not want to do good things (Forgiving your neighbor, loving your enemy, volunteer work, financial contribution) though? I am in no way trying to take a shot at you, worm, am only referencing this one area in particular.

Believing that He was sent from God to do what He did for us will always be the top priority, but isn't it true that some of us might come to hold that belief after the message of Christ's works are truly embraced? That is the only reason I find some danger by ever discounting "Good works."

Not long ago, I was down in the dumps after becoming obsessive compulsive with so much of this, worrying about everything and anything that I've done wrong, etc (Repentance is definitely good, don't get me wrong. But on the same hand, I wasn't being productive with it anymore-was repeating myself over and over again, etc). There's a catch 22 at this point-we'll always be sinners, that nature will always be there deep down. We can't escape that. But I what I was doing here was spending all of my time rehashing back over my sins, the same ones over and over again. While the lesson itself was extremely valuable, meaning I had finally realized just how much of a sinner I really am, the bad part was that I over-extended myself in terms of trying to be perfect. But than I realized that it was far more simple than that. In other words, I figured out that you can be a sinner but yet still find a sense of purpose by doing good works, too.

One day I decided to go visit my former pastor who is now in charge of pastoral duties at a retirement home. We spoke, and than we went up to visit with some of the residents. It felt good to hug and smile these little souls again, I hadn't done that in a long time.

By the time I left, all of the darkness of the past few weeks had left. There isn't a doubt in my mind now the Holy Spirit was telling me something on that day. That single visit took away weeks of anxiety and depression.

I'm out and about in the public all the time. I certainly never experience full fledged joy inside like that when I go to a store or a restaurant. So why were things so different with that particular outing, you know?

All of my worries were gone that day, just like that. Now that visit certainly didn't give me a one way ticket to Heaven, I fully understand that. But what it did do was remind me of what this is all about, how much I love Jesus' message. And I'll be taking many more of these types of outings one way or the other. So long as what you're doing is done out of internal desire (You're not "Forcing it") and its an act of kindness in line with something that's truly good(IE-Stripping clubs excluded from the goodwill tour), I can't possibly imagine that any harm would come by going out and experiencing something like this.

What's the alternative, you know? To spend time worrying about my own path all day long? Of course we must read the Bible, of course we must embrace God's rules that are asked of us.

But on the same hand, doesn't there come a point and time once Christ's message is truly embraced that a person wants to go out and do good? I don't understand that. Not only does He ask this of us, but I'm not the only one who's heart has taken on the desire to go out and do something good for Him. If I don't do that, I'll be spending the next 20 years of my life sitting in a room going over everything and anything I've done that day. At that point, I know that I'd have some questions as to whether or not God's purpose for me was to spend my days on the computer and second guessing myself with every direction I've ever taken in life.

"Good deeds" themselves might not give a person a straight ticket to Heaven. But on the same hand, it might well be an excellent method for some to truly embrace the message of Jesus.

Of course I'm not advocating that people go out and sin and brush it off just because someone has done something good for a day. It doesn't work that way, either. "Doing good" doesn't give you a free pass to commit sin. Nor should your deeds become a means for "Bragging rights" or anything like that. We're warned about that.

But at the same time, if it works for you, suggest that somebody else try it, too. It seems like we've all locked ourselves up these days and we're all checking off the calender waiting for His return. That's wonderful, but on the same hand, we do not know the hour or day of His arrival, either, so there's still work to be done.

For anyone that believes that it's impossible to connect with Jesus Christ by venturing into a smelly old nursing home and talking with strangers at random, etc, you just never know what God has planned, either. Maybe you will not feel any different about things. Maybe you will.

You might just be a little surprised. Even if you're not very talkative, I'd still suggest that you give it a try-just once. Allow yourself the ability to truly embrace the message of Christ. A signifigant level of meaning can come away from these things, and it's all a gift from Him. That's the beautiful part.

Even if it bores you to listen to a little grandma talk about her family that you don't even know for 20 minutes, you might just be surprised by the way you feel after you walk away from the experience. Think how many of the little things sit in there that rarely ever have visitors. You might just bring the type of joy to one of them that they've been longing for so long. If the love of the Holy Spirit lives within you, be happy! You should be filled with joy, a certain kind of joy that would make the day (The week) for someone in need of it.

Clearly, for those that understand what I'm talking about here, you know that I'm in no way advocating for anything at all that goes against the Bible's teachings, nor am I suggesting that people put the Bible down for good and only concern themselves with performing "Good acts." You know that you don't do what you do under the belief that doing it will "Get you into heaven." Rather, you do what you do because of the impact that He's had on your heart, your life. He's the one in the driver's seat~.

I hope I have worded this ok.

Edited February 6, 2006 by truespirit