What is Faith? What is "Good Works"?

[Copper Scroll]

The Catholic poster has a different view of faith and works than Protestant believers. RCC's do believe their works are meritorious. That was the main issue of Luther's Reformation. Justification before God is through faith in Christ and His works alone. Our works play no part in it. Of course there are those who claim faith in Christ but whose faith is not genuine. That however does not mean we are not justified by faith alone. True faith gives rise to good works yet the works are still tainted since we are sinners and will be until we die.

Why and how? You seem to have defined "faith" as believing the gospel to be true. Is it not possible that a person could believe and know Jesus lived and died and lived again they way he did and still commit evil? The poster you refer to here argued that even the devil knows about Jesus... but remains evil. Why has the devil's faith not given rise to good works?

You keep mentioning unconditional love. Humans are not really capable of unconditional love.

Do you have children? If so, would you die for them? Is not your love for them unconditional? How not?

Once again the problem is our sin nature which we will always have in this life. Therefore our love will alway be tainted and never perfectly unconditional.

...still waiting on the scripture that says we can't mess up... even once.

Jesus kept the Law perfectly. He did not break it at all. If he had he would not be God and our faith in Him would be useless. He did not keep the law with regard to the way the Pharisees understood the law which was a legalistic surface way.

I would say rather that Jesus adhered to the principles/intent/spirit of the Law. But he did break the law as it was enforced by the authorities.

As I said I think you also appear to have a shallow and surface understanding of the Law. You imply that it is something we can do to please God.

I've said that I do not mean to minimize the importance of faith in the gospel. But in accordance with what Jesus taught, I also know that love and charity are also important. It's not an "either/or" deal; it's a "both/and" deal.

[st. Worm]

copper scroll,

The devil indeed knows Jesus but knowing Jesus is not really the issue. Faith is trusting that Jesus has died for you and taken the punishment for your sins. The issue is not knowing, its trusting. I know my pastor but I do not trust that he has died for my sins.

That's not unconditional love. You love your children because they are your children. That's a condition.

Jesus kept the law in letter and Spirit. Sin is lack of conformity to the law. If you are saying Jesus did not keep the Law perfectly then he sinned. If Jesus sinned then he could not be God and we are foolish to place our trust in Him.

I think you are confusing the fruits of faith with requirements for salvation in addition to faith. Only Christ can stand sin free before God. We are viewed as sin free through faith in Christ. It is an imputed righteousness we have not a real righteousness. We still sin and still have our sin nature. Because of those our works in God's eyes are still filthy rags.

I think that answers most of your questions.

SW

[st. Worm]

Waimahia,

I understand that Jesus told his disciples to preach more than the kingdom is near but the message was still transitional in nature. In the OT the faithful were saved by faith in the coming Messiah. During the time Jesus was walking the earth in human form, the message was that the Kingdom is near, that the Messiah is here now put your faith in Him. After the cross the Gospel is preached in its completeness and that completeness is that Christ has died for your sins at the cross. You have been declared righteous for the sake of Christ who has died at the cross yet He lives again through the power of the resurrection.

Not sure what your argument is.

SW

[EricH]

Do you have children? If so, would you die for them? Is not your love for them unconditional? How not?

It is conditioned on the fact that they are your children. If you truly loved unconditionally it would not matter what their relationship was to you. You would love all equally

[John3;16]

...still waiting on the scripture that says we can't mess up... even once.

here are the verses that you wanted, in James 2:10 it says that: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one

[Copper Scroll]

The devil indeed knows Jesus but knowing Jesus is not really the issue. Faith is trusting that Jesus has died for you and taken the punishment for your sins. The issue is not knowing, its trusting. I know my pastor but I do not trust that he has died for my sins.

The pastor analogy doesn't seem to fit. You don't claim that your pastor died for the sins of the world. I still don't see the distinction between trusting and knowing in this case. If you know something, you trust that it is true. You said believing the gospel to be true earns salvation. A evil person (judged by his deeds) can believe that the gospel is true but still commit evil--knowingly and intentionally. There is nothing about the idea that Jesus is God's son and lived and was crucified for the sins of the world that necessitates someone to abstain from evil deeds.

That's not unconditional love. You love your children because they are your children. That's a condition.

Are you saying I love my children because I produced them or because I am raising them? The former case can be proven wrong by the father who finds out his child is not "his" and continues to love him anyway, or by anyone who adopts. In the latter case, I would argue that I am raising my child because I love him--not the other way around.

Jesus kept the law in letter and Spirit. Sin is lack of conformity to the law. If you are saying Jesus did not keep the Law perfectly then he sinned. If Jesus sinned then he could not be God and we are foolish to place our trust in Him.

In Matthew 12:1-8, Jesus admits to breaking the law but sets forth an argument for why it's okay--that the law is inapplicable to him--that he is "one greater than the temple" and "Lord of the Sabbath".

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I am learning much.

Edited February 8, 2006 by Copper Scroll

[Copper Scroll]

...still waiting on the scripture that says we can't mess up... even once.

here are the verses that you wanted, in James 2:10 it says that: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one

[John3;16]

QUOTE

...still waiting on the scripture that says we can't mess up... even once.

here are the verses that you wanted, in James 2:10 it says that: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one

[Copper Scroll]

And then there's a deeper question Why would God impose a law on Israel that its people were incapable of following--a law they were bound to break? Also, if following the law in fullness (if this were possible) does not earn God's favor, then what is the purpose of the law in the first place?

There were Jews who were saved during the period that the law was in effect, such as king David, but it was through faith that they were saved, the law contained a provision for sin, and that was the Sacrifice which in turn was a picture of Christ. But we know that under the law no flesh can be saved, but Christ is the end of the law, and after his death he went to preach to those in captivity, those in paradise or Abraham

Edited February 9, 2006 by Copper Scroll

[EricH]

But I'm not sure if this answers the question: What is the purpose of the law (given from God to Israel in the OT) if God knew that Israel (and any human being) would be incapable of meeting its demands perfectly? Previously, the argument was made that if the law is not followed to perfection, then it's not really being followed at all. Further, even if it were possible to follow the law perfectly, (the arguement goes) this would not matter to God anyway. So what is the point in having the law in the first place?

Paul answers this good question in the book of Galatians:

But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Galatians 3:23-25 NASB

According to Paul, the Law existed to teach us our sinfulness and need for a redeemer:

Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:19-20 NASB