The end result of eternal security

[Catsmeow]

 

Born again is one spiritual METAPHOR to describe salvation, but should not be taken as absolutely literal and parallel to natural birth (dangerous assumption). The analogy that one cannot be 'unborn' physically cannot be pressed to mean that one cannot spiritually sever forever a relationship with God. Physical birth totally effects the inception of life, whereas spiritual birth involves only a transition from one mode of life to another. Born again involves knowledge and consent, unlike physical birth. Spiritual birth involves dependence on God; birth and life can continue independent of the parents. In marriage, the intimacy may be lost through hurt and fighting. At some point, adultery may occur, and the marriage relationship may be dissolved and practically ended forever through divorce and remarriage to another person. Likewise, a sin does not severe our relationship with God, but willfully, defiantly shaking our free will fist in His face to the end of our natural life and rejecting the cross and Him personally will be 'honored' by God (cf. Jewish Christian apostasy and a return to trusting Judaism instead of Jesus for salvation- Hebrews). 

I love it, Godrulz: ...really thoughtful response. I think most people have wrestled with these issues at one time or another.

It's a hot potato but I appreciate the deliberate effort you put into this post...I think I'll print that one out and tape it on my 'puter...to really think about.

I think the relationship with the Lord is somewhat like a parent/child and somewhat like a husband/wife relationship.

Example: The prodigal son choose to leave his father but sure enough, the father, in his mercy ...took his son back.

Also, in the OT we see Hosea continually accepting his wayward wife back, despite herself...showing how patient he is even when we are unfaithful.

[Guest coolwaters]

I sway from side of the argument to the other. Once saved always saved?

The apostle John says that eternal life is the promise Jesus gave to us who believe. But Jehovah's Witnesses are told that believers DO NOT have assurance of eternal life. This is the game lie that false teachers tried to bring into the early church. But John, writing to the believers says this, "Let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life. These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you."(1 John 2:24-26).

[godrulz]

JWs do not believe they can know they have eternal life now (I Jn.5:13) because their salvation is based on faith + works, unlike Christianity. Practically, their organization is a revolving door with many leaving to become pagan or true Christians. They inuitively realize you cannot reject Jehovah's so-called organization and have a hope in an earthly paradise.

We can have present tense eternal life assurance based on trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ, apart from futile door knocking trying to earn salvation. Faith in a man-made organization and its legalistic rules (religion) will never give a sense of peace with God. But it is an insult to the holiness of God to think we can follow Him for awhile and then go back to the gutter and say, for example, "I hate you God and in fact do not believe in your existence and want to be evil" and still think we are right with God and hope for heaven.

Calvinists may be prone to a false assurance of salvation thinking they can drift far from God and still feel right with Him.

Arminians can be prone to never feeling eternally secure as evidenced by repeated trips responding to altar calls.

We should know here and now that we have eternal life (biblical eternal security) based on the Word of God and faith in the finished work of Christ. True faith will be evidenced by a changed life and good works. He is able to keep us unto eternal life as we cooperate with the Spirit in our lives (Jude 24,25). This does not preclude the possibility of later rejecting God, hence the need to heed the warnings about leaving our first love forever. Salvation involves two parties, and is conditional based on man's free will and the nature of true love relationships. It will be our fault, not God's, if we chose sin again over the Savior (consequences).

[Catsmeow]

But Godrulz, I do sin. In fact, I don't think there's a single day that, despite my best efforts, that I don't fall short....

There's always some moment when I'm being selfish or not handling things the way God would prefer I do...or times when the hubby and I fuss at each other...or whatever.

I even have moments of distraction in prayer, (embarassing to admit but true)...

I know I'm my Father's child and I know I hear His Voice and He hears me...I know I belong to the Family of God...but I do sin...every single day I find things I could change or do to be more pleasing to God.

We are imperfect...a work in progress and continually being molded. But we sin, I'm sorry to say. Our pride steps in; we act in ignorance...we become self motivated.

Sometimes we do good but our motives are not always pure...I could go on but you get the idea. We fall short. Our whole lives are continual trial and error.

[JohnS]

JWs do not believe they can know they have eternal life now (I Jn.5:13) because their salvation is based on faith + works, unlike Christianity.

Exactly!

I am trying my best.

[endure4salvation]

DOES SIN BRING ABOUT SPIRITUAL DEATH ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE?

Ezekiel 3:20

Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die.

Ezekiel 33:12-20

Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, 'The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it.  The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness. If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done.  And if I say to the wicked man, 'You will surely die,' but he then turns away from his sin and does what is just and right--if he gives back what he took in pledge for a loan, returns what he has stolen, follows the decrees that give life, and does no evil, he will surely live; he will not die.  None of the sins that he has committed will be remembered against him.  He has done what is just and right; he will surely live.  Yet your countrymen say, 'The way of the LORD is not just.' But it is their way that is not just.  If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it.  And if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he will live by doing so.  Yet, O house of Israel, you say, 'The way of the LORD is not just.' But I will judge each of you according to his own ways.

James 1:14-16

...For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.  Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full grown, gives birth to death.  Do not be deceived my dear brothers.

1 John 5:16

If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life.  I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death.  There is a sin that leads to death.

Romans 6:16-18

Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey, whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

All of the UES proponents will openly declare that these verses are talking about a physical death. They will say that God will destroy the body and bring them to heaven for a glorious homecoming! In fact, the worse they behave, the sooner God will bring them home! See how this actually encourages sinful living in some people? There are some people that will think that because they are struggling with life (depression or abuse from family just to give two examples), that they would benefit by sinning as much as possible because it will cause God to kill them and bring them home! Or even worse, it may actually cause them to murder themselves! I understand that this is not true for the majority, but I have personally experienced deep depression and can say with complete certainty that the mindset of anybody in this state is unstable, at best. Suicide is only a bad day away for anyone in this condition. Desperate times call for desperate measures to someone who has no will or hope.

Pay close attention here: some people will say that all the above verses do not mean spiritual death, and then these same people will then quote Romans 6:23 where it says, The wages of sin is death to a lost person and say that this is talking about spiritual death! How hypocritical!!! I sure wish these people would make up their minds! They always pick and choose which passages deal with physical and spiritual death according to how it can fit their preconceived theology, and they have to do this in order to continue believing in UES. That being said, look at the following passages:

Ezekiel 18:4

For every living soul belongs to Me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to Me.  The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Ezekiel 18:20-25

The soul that sins is the one who will die...But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live, he will not die.  None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.  Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.  Do I take pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD.  Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?  But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sins and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live?  None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered.  Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.  Yet you say, "The way of the Lord is not just."  Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust?  Is it not your ways that are unjust?

Some may say that this verse doesn't apply anymore because it is in the Old Testament. This claim is absurd because God cannot change, but let us look into the New Testament to see if there is a similar verse.

James 5:19-20

My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, let him know, that he which converted the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and cover a multitude of sins.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT SIN DOES LEAD TO SPIRITUAL DEATH!!!! DO NOT BE DECEIVED!!!

Romans 8:12-13

...we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.  For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

This verse cannot be talking about a physical death! Because if it was talking about physical death instead of spiritual death, then the end result of this passage would say that if you stop sinning, your physical body will live forever! This is not the case, so it is obvious that a Christian can turn from God to a sinful lifestyle and will die spiritually.

[Catsmeow]

In that case I'm in trouble...I don't think a day goes by when I don't sin. In fact, I don't think a day goes by when all of us don't sin.

We're all selfish at times...sometimes prideful, sometimes self-seeking...

People volley for a good parking spot at the expense of others..they tail gate in traffic, they act rudely if someone does them an injustice, like cut in front of them in line...etc.

None of us are exempt from sinning...every soul sins on a daily basis. You're only safe if you stay in bed and do nothing...and even then you sin because you're being slothful.

[godrulz]

I John 1:9 (believer is the context, not unregenerate) recognizes that believer's can and will sin...there is provision for forgiveness after repentance. The Word also calls us to a life of progressive obedience and victory over sin.

To become a believer one makes an ultimate choice to live for God (love, obey, trust, submit) as opposed to living for the kingdom of Self.

Cat has made that choice and is a believer. Now we grow to maturity and sanctification until we are glorified by making daily subordinate choices leading to holiness (or 'sin' if we please the flesh). The key is our motive. We can still have momentary lapses of selfishness and living in the flesh, but our overall desire is to live for God. These lapses hopefully will become fewer and briefer as we grow in love with God (transformed progressively to newness of life).

Just as a stint of marriage strain does not sever the marriage bond, a temporary lapse of sinning/flesh does not kick us out of the kingdom and sever our relationship with God. The Bible condemns an ongoing, habitual, unrepentant, hard-hearted life of sin as unworthy of the kingdom, not a passing selfish sin (though we should walk in the Light and restore intimacy with God by repentance, obedience).

So there is a doctrinal issue that we may fail, but can experience new cleansing and intimacy. I too sin and stumble repeatedly. Thank God for His love, mercy, grace, and discipline to draw us back.

The pastoral issue is that we should not live in guilt or failure (Rom. 8 there is no condemntation; and what can separate us from the love of God?), but can chose a life pleasing to God with the help of the Spirit.

[endure4salvation]

Hi Catsmeow! It is good to see you post here! I love cats and am about to get one when my soon-to-be-bride and I get back from our honeymoon.

We are getting married in only 7 days!!!

But let us not stray too far off-topic here.

Here is a quote from you:

In that case I'm in trouble...I don't think a day goes by when I don't sin. In fact, I don't think a day goes by when all of us don't sin.

I must say I am disturbed by your comment here. I would like to request that you give further elaboration on what you are trying to say. It almost seems to me like you are admitting that our salvation is conditional upon our forsaking of our sins and continual adherance to God's commands, but you don't care if you do these things.

That isn't what you are saying, is it?

We're all selfish at times...sometimes prideful, sometimes self-seeking...

Yes, this is sad but true. I myself am bitter at times and even downright ugly to people. But we have to change and become humble and obedient like a little child in order to please God. I am trying...

Here are a few more verses to ponder over:

Matthew 25:46

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

Romans 2:7

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:8,9

He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of His power.

Hebrews 5:9

And, once made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him.

1 John 2:3,4

We know that we have come to know Him if we obey His commands. The man who says, "I know Him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in Him.

James 2:12-13

Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful.

[Catsmeow]

When I say "sin" I am referring to the same sins you admit to...the daily sins whereby we are not being considerate of others.

OR there's another kind of sin, which troubles me...the sin of omission. We know we should do something but we fail to do it. We know to do right but fail to do it.

No, I don't believe our salvation is contingent on whether we sin. If it were so, we'd be doomed since everyone of us sins ...daily. That's elementary among most evangelicals. We all know that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I have known believers who backslid and went back into sin and came back to the Lord in tears, begging for His forgiveness. *(And were indeed forgiven)

I was one of those. I fell into a sin worse than adultery..worse than stealing...worse than murder, (IMO, that is). I fell into the sin of self-righteousness...*(i.e. pride)

I am free, by the blood of Jesus and his grace...but I was made to eat humble pie. There are sins most Christians don't even realize are grave offenses...and self-righteousness is one of them.

When I say, "Self-righteousness" ..I'm not referring to striving to walk in holiness. I am referring to the dreadful thing that happens if we're not careful...it's a prideful comparison of oneself to others...

In our hearts we say to ourselves, "I'm sure glad I didn't do such and such.."

I am guilty of that. I did that and God humbled me. So, no ....my salvation was no more at stake than a little child's in fear of losing his mommy and daddy because he wouldn't eat his vegetables.

We are CHILDREN...God's children. We mess up! We're not perfect. We have not arrived. We are all works in progress and God's not done with us. We all have some growing up to do.

And, as we all know...He disciplines those He loves. In my case, I was humbled. And it hurt, believe me...