Mystery Babylon

[nebula]

So, the statue of liberty sits on the water right off of New York where the United Nations have their home. I can't think of any other nation in the world that fits this description more than us. When I see the prostitute holding the cup in her hand and I see the seven heads, I see the seven spikes in her crown. I know of no other nation today that has the control and power over the world as the USA does.

Yes, the interpretation that the US is Mystery Babylon is one of the the common interpretations.

I have to question these specifics, though.

The Statue of Liberty holds a torch not a goblet.

And if John was describing the Statue of Liberty, what are the tablets she holds?

And the statue is not riding a beast. (Unless you consider the beast to be France. j/k

I know of no other nation, other than Israel, that is as hated as we are. What if the blood of the saints includes unborn babies, which we have slaughtered millions. Who else has this kind of influence over the world?

This is one question I have with this view - what did the US have to do with "the blood of the saints" since the first century?

I truly see that if things are going to go as they are in prophecy, America has to be taken out of the equation. Maybe the reason it is called "mystery" Bablyon is because we did not exist then. I believe we are it, and I believe 9/11 was just a warning, and I believe we as a nation are going to very soon be taken out of the equation. Then, prophecy will begin to unfold with full force towards those seven years of tribulation and the ultimate return of Jesus Christ.

This, too, is a common thought - because it doesn't look like America is in Revelation, it means that America will be taken out. That doesn't mean it is Babylon, though. After all, the fall of Babylon takes place well into the Tribulation, not before, does it not?

Just my two cents worth (maybe it's not even worth that, but I hope you're willing to take the overcharge!):

1. In the Middle East, Mecca is known as the 'city built on 7 hills' and has been since time out of mind.

2. No entity has murdered more Christians than has Islam.

Perhaps we have all been looking in the wrong direction........

I've been suspecting that, too.

And the more headlines that come down the pike, the more I get suspicious of this.

And wouldn't the Dome on the Rock sitting on the Temple Mount, which boldly proclaims, "God has no son" on its walls, be considered "the abomination that causes desolation"? Hmmmm....

[Christ's Free Servant]

So, the statue of liberty sits on the water right off of New York where the United Nations have their home. I can't think of any other nation in the world that fits this description more than us. When I see the prostitute holding the cup in her hand and I see the seven heads, I see the seven spikes in her crown. I know of no other nation today that has the control and power over the world as the USA does.

Yes, the interpretation that the US is Mystery Babylon is one of the the common interpretations.

I have to question these specifics, though.

The Statue of Liberty holds a torch not a goblet.

And if John was describing the Statue of Liberty, what are the tablets she holds?

And the statue is not riding a beast. (Unless you consider the beast to be France. j/k

I know of no other nation, other than Israel, that is as hated as we are. What if the blood of the saints includes unborn babies, which we have slaughtered millions. Who else has this kind of influence over the world?

This is one question I have with this view - what did the US have to do with "the blood of the saints" since the first century?

I truly see that if things are going to go as they are in prophecy, America has to be taken out of the equation. Maybe the reason it is called "mystery" Bablyon is because we did not exist then. I believe we are it, and I believe 9/11 was just a warning, and I believe we as a nation are going to very soon be taken out of the equation. Then, prophecy will begin to unfold with full force towards those seven years of tribulation and the ultimate return of Jesus Christ.

This, too, is a common thought - because it doesn't look like America is in Revelation, it means that America will be taken out. That doesn't mean it is Babylon, though. After all, the fall of Babylon takes place well into the Tribulation, not before, does it not?

Just my two cents worth (maybe it's not even worth that, but I hope you're willing to take the overcharge!):

1. In the Middle East, Mecca is known as the 'city built on 7 hills' and has been since time out of mind.

2. No entity has murdered more Christians than has Islam.

Perhaps we have all been looking in the wrong direction........

I've been suspecting that, too.

And the more headlines that come down the pike, the more I get suspicious of this.

And wouldn't the Dome on the Rock sitting on the Temple Mount, which boldly proclaims, "God has no son" on its walls, be considered "the abomination that causes desolation"? Hmmmm....

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Giaour]

Double hmmmmmm

Leonard, get back in here!

Tell me more.

[Christ's Free Servant]

Double hmmmmmm

Leonard, get back in here!

Tell me more.

Ok, if Mecca were to be destroyed, would the world weep? Does the world depend on Mecca the way it depends on New York and the UN? Are there not multiple countries who have slaughtered the saints, including the USA who has slaughtered 29 million babies? Are they not saints? If Rome were to be destroyed, would the world weep? Does Rome have the kind of influence today that is mentioned in Revelation 17? If the 7 years of trib began tomorrow, who would most likely fit the bill for the description in Revelation? Remember, Revelation is symbolism. The seven hills are seven kingdoms and the statue of liberty has a crown with seven spikes which represent 7 continents or 7 bodies of water. It does not necessarily mean she sits physically on a beast, but figuratively. If she represents 7 continents, and the 7 hills represent 7 kings or kingdoms, then maybe we are back to John McCarther's interpretation. Maybe it is multiple governments and religious systems he is bringing down. And, on the thought of when this occurs, I again bring before you Revelation 14 which says that after the fall of Babylon, from that point on any one who dies in Christ is considered blessed. Maybe God is going to judge the false Church and many will die and so these deaths are not "blessed," but only those after are. That says to me that the fall comes first, then the seven years of tribulation.

You're it! (whoever)

[apothanein kerdos]

Islam could not be the religious or economic system either. For one, it was not established until the 7th century. John is speaking of a system that has killed thousands of people, and I assume from his own time. Likewise, the only major thing we trade with the middle east is oil.

The system is one that has been around for ever, and has also yet to be identified. It is a system that seeks to deny God...and in the end it will all come together to do so in unison.

[nebula]

You're it! (whoever)

You see how confusing this can get!

You see, every model I've seen, and even those of my own, has holes in it.

The Statue of Liberty model has holes in it - i.e. she holds a torch, not a goblet; Babylon's fall doesn't occur until Ch. 18 of Revelation; etc.

The Islam model has holes in it, as you pointed out.

The "Rome" model has holes in it.

That's why, even though I have leanings or suspicions, I leave it at that. Sticking too strongly to one interpretation can leave you on the wrong boat - easily!

(Not saying it's wrong to debate or discuss or specualate - just encouraging to be careful about making "Gospel" so to speak out of any one interpretation. 'K?)

[Christ's Free Servant]

You're it! (whoever)

You see how confusing this can get!

You see, every model I've seen, and even those of my own, has holes in it.

The Statue of Liberty model has holes in it - i.e. she holds a torch, not a goblet; Babylon's fall doesn't occur until Ch. 18 of Revelation; etc.

The Islam model has holes in it, as you pointed out.

The "Rome" model has holes in it.

That's why, even though I have leanings or suspicions, I leave it at that. Sticking too strongly to one interpretation can leave you on the wrong boat - easily!

(Not saying it's wrong to debate or discuss or specualate - just encouraging to be careful about making "Gospel" so to speak out of any one interpretation. 'K?)

I suppose that is why she is called "Mystery" Babylon, you think?

[BlindSeeker]

Please forgive the length . . .

"Here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Revelation 13-19:4 speaks of the final judgement of the LAST of a concessions of spiritual "Babylons." To understand who the 8th spiritual Babylon is, we need to give heed to the clues given by the angel to John in chapter 17.

First, we know that the beast "was, and is not, and yet is." That phrase tells us that there was going to be a point in time when this "seven headed beast" was not going to be represented by a physical country. Yet, after the passage of time the beast would again "rise up out of the sea" and exist briefly as the seventh head, and then ultimately as a final beast (country) that would be "THE EIGHT... and goeth into perdition," or complete destruction.

The sea in 17:15, we are told, represents "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." This verse is one in this chapter that convinces many that the beast is the Roman Catholic Church, for it has established itself in every corner of the earth. However, I am persuaded that this symbolic Beast is multi faceted and includes a civil nation and not just a religious institution.

The key I believe to understanding who this 8th Beast is to first understand the importance of Israel. We should take notice that she TOO "was, and was not, and yet is." Even today Israel is "spiritually called Sodom, and Egypt," because they rejected Jesus as their promised Messiah (Rev. 11:8).

By continuing in the old Mosaic law (which had fulfilled it's purpose of portraying the death of Christ thru the prophetic action of animal sacrifices,) they spiritually went back to Egypt. Hence they are called "Egypt" to represent they are still in bondage to their sins, while "Sodom" represents how perverted their religion has become without the Temple, priesthood, and ultimately their lack of acceptance of Jesus, their promise Deliverer.

The beast mention in Revelation 13 -16, is the rise and fall of the final Eight Beast. In chapter 17:1 the angel tells John, "I will shew thee the Judgement of the great whore that sitteth on many waters," and in verse 7 the angel says, "I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her." See, there is a clue here, there are two, the woman, and the beast. I am persuaded that the woman, or the whore, can represent false religion of any kind, but in the end time it will be the mass of false Christianity which has diluted the teachings of Christ and have prostituted themselves to the 8th Beast for economic reasons. (In this country, the church/faith based organizations have accepted a tax-exempt status.)

The seven heads of the beast represents several actual empires that will have catered to various false religious systems while at the same time having a direct contact with the nation Israel. A clue the Angel gives to John is "here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth." This is where many say these are seven hills of Rome. However the angel continues by saying, "There are seven kings five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come." Now the seven mountains represents seven different empires that will have had a direct effect on the nation Israel (which was, and was not, and yet is.)

At the time of John the angel says, "five are fallen, and one is." It is easy to know who all six of these are. The one which was existing at the time of John was Rome. Now Rome "had great iron teeth: it devoured and break into pieces, and stamp the residue with the feet of it and was diverse from all the beast that were before it," and therefore fulfilled God's promise of judgement against Israel for not cleaving to Him and obeying His voice as told in Duet. chapter 28. Thus in 70 A.D. Israel ceased to exist as a nation. The Roman General Titus, unable to negotiate a settlement with the stiff neck rebellion of the Jew, was obliged to execute God's judgement upon them.

Realizing the seven headed beast has direct relationship to Israel, we can simply go back to the birth of Israel to see who the fallen five are.

Joseph, betrayed by his brothers was sold as a slave and ended up sitting on a throne in Egypt. While his brothers meant it for evil, God meant it for good. For by this brotherly betrayal came the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham, to make his descendants a mighty nation, and give them the land of Canaan. Through them He would show all the world His greatness.

Nearly 400 years later, Egypt afraid of the multitude of Jewish settlers in the land enslaved them. Thus, Egypt is beast head number one.

Many years later, after the death of King Solomon, his son, Rehoboam was confronted by Jeroboam, who represented the ten northern tribes. Jeroboam asked Rehoboam to lower the previous taxes that Solomon placed upon them. Rehoboam sought the wisdom of "the old men that stood before his father... But he forsook the counsel of the old men which they had given him, and consulted with the young men that were grown up with him," (1 Kings 12).

The result was a division in the nation. The ten northern tribes revolted and set Jeroboam up as their King. Jeroboam, however, became afraid and said, "If this people go up to do sacrifice in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then shall the heart of the people turn again unto their lord, even unto Rehoboam king of Judah, and they shall kill me, and go again to Rehoboam king of Judah." "Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, it is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt."

What a mistake, for turning the people to idols only brought the judgement of God upon them. God raised up Assyria to take the ten northern tribes in to captivity. Not heeding the commandment not to intermarry, they lost their pure Jewish identity, and became Samaritans. Thus the ten northern tribes were lost, not by misplacement, but rather by forfeit of their pure identity as Jews. Thus Assyria is the Second head of the Beast.

Then over two hundred years later, Judah was taken captive by Babylon. Thus Babylon is the their head of the beast. In Daniel 8:20,21, we see that the two empires that would follow Babylon would be the Medes/Persia empire and Greece. Heads of the beast number four and five. So at the time of John's vision in Revelations, the five that had fallen were, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medes/Persia, and Greece. The six head which was present at John's time was Rome, and Rome destroyed Israel as a nation.

Since 70 A.D. and prior to 1948, no map recognize any land as Israel, for Israel "which was, was not." Yet fulfilling his promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, God preserved their descendants and has regathered them back to the land of their inheritance. Thus, Israel "that was, and is not, yet is." And therefore, so is the beast.

Now what brought Israel back as a nation (apart from God's sovereignty) was global sympathy for the Jews because of their persecution in World War II. Whereupon at that time, their land was part of the British Empire.

Now history tells us that while Britain was willing to allot a piece of land for Jewish settlers, they did not want to relinquish control or possession of the land. Still, after the Jews frustration with England and the Palestinians, they themselves rose up and fought and prevailed, taking control and occupancy of some land. England then conceded and gave that land to the Jews (under international pressure) so they could once again be a people, a nation.

Now this all may seem good and well, except God requires that when a gift is given, (if it is to be acceptable with God,) it must be given of one's free will. Otherwise, it is not a gift of charity. Therefore, England, who chose not to bless the descendants of Abraham with a free will offering of charity, chose to forfeit the blessings of God. So, England than, being the seventh head, "when he cometh, he must continue a short space" (Rev. 17:10).

"And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eight, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition" (verse 11). Now rises up out of the sea is the eight beast, which we are told is "of," or from, the seven. Could it mean that the eight beast is a mixture of the seven heads or empires, like some great melting pot? For it does have "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." Or is it "of the seven" as a descendant, or offspring of the seventh empire?

Either way, America is the Cinderella for this glass slipper. We are the land of immigrants, as well as the offspring of England as the Brave New World. But what brought us to as place of global supremacy, and until recently the closest ally to Israel? Was it not the same thing that set the stage for the birth of Israel, World War II?

Remember, Revelation 13-16 is about the rise and fall of the Eight Beast that goes into perdition, and chapter 17 clarifies who the eight was by giving us a progression of empires? Well in chapter 13:3 we see the eight beast receiving a wound to one of its heads "as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

I seriously proposed we consider the possibility that this wound to the head, from which we amazingly recovered, was Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor, a historical event that keep resurfacing. It was this event that brought America into the war. And yet, despite Japan's fury, speed, and might, Pearl Harbor some how survived and came back to defend itself. Incredible.

But do we recall how the was ended? It was with the dropping of The Bomb on Hiroshima and the second bomb on Nagasaki.

Such display of power was never before witnessed. the whole world said, "Who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with Him?" John beheld in his vision "another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns of a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exercises all the power of the first beast... and he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire (The Bomb) come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men." (vrs.11-13).

This second beast that looks like a lamb (having two horns) and SEEMS to be for peace, "exercises ALL the authority of the first" is none other than the office of the Presidency. Yet while he seems to be for peace, His mouth is really speaking the agenda of the dragon.

Now we see this more clearly as EX-President Clinton and his wife, took posture against Israel. They expressed their views as to the rights of a Palestine State. EX-President Bill Clinton pressured Israel with the threat of loosing American support if they didn't comply in the Peace talks and policies. Arafat has declared there WILL BE a Palestine State, to which Israel has issued warning not to try it. Read again the fate of the eight beast from Rev. 13-18. Who else fits this better than us.

So much has happened this year to turn the European Union and the UN against America, as well as the enabling the E.U. to be a viable threat against America with the establishing of the E.U. military, headed up by a Germany General.

DIDN'T Germany start the last 2 world wars????

The revelation of the rise of the 8th Beast begins in Rev. 13 and in that passage there is no mention of the woman sitting upon the beast at the time of it's coming to "his power, and his seat, and great authority." Chapters 14 and 15a speak of the iniquities of the beast and of the judgement that would befall it in chapters 15b and 16.

This vision so overwhelmed the Apostle that in chapter 17 the angel clarifies what he had seen, as well as why and how her judgement would come.

Chapters 18 and 19 speak of the absolute destruction and glory given to God for His righteous judgements.

It seems to me that when the 8th Beast rises to its might (in Rev. 13), there is a separation between the beast (civil) and the woman (religious), because the woman is not mentioned. Or simply, a separation between church and state. BUT, in order for the civil government to do what it is prophesied to do in the last days, initiate a new economic system, it will need the support of the religious sector, or faith based organizations, to assure that such an economic system is ok, hence in chapter 17 the woman is on the beast.

Seeing how the church/religious systems have allowed herself/themselves to be regulated by the civil authorities in order to enjoy tax exempt status, she/they will feel obliged to assure her populace that the new economic structure is not "the mark of the beast." This will not be difficult to do for the whoring daughters of confused Babylon, for they have perpetuated many false end time doctrines and have "waxed worst, deceiving and being deceived."

Our adversary has spued out a flood out of his mouth of these false end time message and doctrines with which he might cause the true Church to be carried away with the flood of error that is rampant in these other whoring psuedo churches, who are serving mammon instead of God and compromising God's Truth for their increased attendance, lest they offend the contributors.

Just as God always had His civil leaders and His spiritual leaders, so the devil has imitated this structural order of God in his attempt to defeat God's people. Hence the beast AND the woman which rides it. They will selfishly merge, becoming "one" in heart and purpose, because of their greed for filthy mammon in these final days. Not unlike the nation of Israel back when she rejected her Redeemer.

Remember, you cannot serve God and mammon both.

Interesting note:

President Roosevelt's speech after Pearl Harbor attack:

• "Yesterday, December 7, 1941-a date which will live in infamy-the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan . . . As Commander in Chief of the army and navy I have directed that all measures be taken for our defense.
  Always will we remember the character of the onslaught against us. No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory. . . . With confidence in our armed forces-with the unbounding determination of our people-we will gain the inevitable triumph - so help us God. . ."
  

"Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited."

President Franklin D. Roosevelt suddenly died nearly 3

[Christ's Free Servant]

Blindseeker,

Thank you! I started to read what you wrote, but alas my brain is barely functioning today. I've had this cough, congestion, and junk that's been hanging on forever, and then my husband got really sick and then I got really sick so we both went to the doctor yesterday and we're both on a bunch of medication and it's like I have very few braincells that are working right now, so I will have to read what you wrote a little later. But, thanks so much for sending it. I do appreciate it!

[other one]

CFS, I was there three weeks ago and it was not a pretty sight..... *praying for a quicker than me recovery*

The way I see the US, whether we are any part of Babylon or not doesn't bother me too much, for I don't see any Bible prophesy that bodes well for us in the US. If we are not part of the beast-antichrist-babylon things we don't seem to be anywhere and that is not good either.

A song comes to mind...... "One Day at a Time"

I've looked at what I see going on in the backrgound of world politics and it isn't pretty and we in the US don't look any better off outside the Bible than in.......... Just about everyone I know has that feeling that we are on the brink of major things going wrong here........ we wait on the Lord.

Sam