Predetermined?

August 23, 2003

Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. 10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. 11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

An objection made to me does not make sense to me.

Maybe someone here can clear up the matter.

Here is the objection:

"the serpent seed theology is heretical. Basically you are suggesting that there's men on this world born of serpent seed -- that CANNOT BE SAVED. Think about it."

My confusion lies here. If we are predestined as children of God in Jesus Christ, and if not all are saved, then aren't there those that CANNOT be saved because they were not predestined to be saved?

Universalism is not an accepted doctrine, is it?

Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

And here Jesus states that the tares are the children of the wicked one, the devil. Wouldn't these tares be those born of serpent seed?

I have thought about it. And I see no heresy. Please show me what is so heretic.

August 23, 2003

My confusion lies here. If we are predestined as children of God in Jesus Christ, and if not all are saved, then aren't there those that CANNOT be saved because they were not predestined to be saved?
Universalism is not an accepted doctrine, is it?

romans 9:13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[5]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[6] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[7] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[8] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:

"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;

and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"[9] 26and,

"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,

'You are not my people,'

they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[10]

George · August 23, 2003

Hello my brothers and sisters,

This is a subject we really haven't touched, but I believe this is a worthy topic of discussion. Let's start with the givens.

God wants all men to be saved.
Only those that God draws can come to salvation.
Each person must believe in order to be saved.

1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

It is God's desire that all come to salvation, but obviously not everyone will come into the kingdom. If God had already "PRE-DETERMINED" everyone's eternal destiny.
- Why should we witness?
- Why should we even work at spreading the gospel, if God has already decided their fate?

Catsmeow · August 23, 2003

Duane, this is some really heavy theology. The person I can think of who bests helps clarify deep matters like these is RC Sproul. He's a famous author and theologian who gets really into the meat of this kind of thing.

Sometimes after listening to him, you have to really listen over and over to catch all he says...it gets so intense.

You tackle some heavy topics here....

Since Sproul is a Presbyterian PCA...(he once belonged to my former church - as I was once a member of the same PCA church) I know the Presbyterian doctrine rests on predestination....

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed into to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

In Jeremiah it also speaks of knowing us before we were in the womb.

So, this is one hot topic ...because what is time to God? He is above time and space...

August 23, 2003

More on the serpent seed.

Predestination never eliminates human will. God works according to a plan and purpose and so should we, especially as we determine to do his will. The way in which God's guidance of his creation interfaces with human freedom is unknown. God who made us with will and freedom woos us by His grace and condems people only because of their own willfulness and unbelief. Predestination is an assurance of Gods redemptive love. There has never been a time not even before creation when God has not shown redemptive love for his creation. Predestination assures us that God takes the initiative in relation to salvation and that God pursues us with redemptive love.

Catsmeow · August 23, 2003

God's will is that all come to Him. God has not PRE-DETERMINED one's fate -- but rather He already knows One's FATE --

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed into to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Explain?

August 23, 2003

Psalm 119:155

Salvation is far from the wicked, for they do not seek out your decrees.

the sepernt seed will not seek God. It is self fulling and simple.

August 23, 2003

Psalm 119:155
Salvation is far from the wicked, for they do not seek out your decrees.

the sepernt seed will not seek God. It is self fulling and simple.

The sepernt seed will not seek God. It is self full filling and simple.

George · August 23, 2003

I should rephrase that statement. God has already pre-determined one's fate because of what He's already knows before hand if they are coming into the kingdom. But each person must decide to accept or reject Him. So because we do know one's fate we are to go out and preach this gospel to every creature -- knowing that it is His will that all come into the Kingdom.

Your brother in Messiah with much agape love,

George

godrulz · August 23, 2003

Predestination is a collective/corporate thing. He predestines Israel/Church as a whole. It does not relate to specific individuals, except when they are part of the group. Ephesians especially deals with the relationship between the Church and Christ (note the plural 'us'). Colossians may refer more to the individual believer's relationship to Christ. No individual is 'predestined' to heaven or hell. One's destiny is determined by an individual's free will response to God's drawing: rejection/unbelief or receiving Christ in loving obedience.

John 5:40 Refuse/unwilling to come to Him for life.