The LAW's and our example of them

[Zildja]

That is not an example of the Messiah eating anything unclean, or even a disciple.

And Yod that does not make sence to me because Every instance of sin before the time of Moses is proof that the commandment law already existed. If sin is breaking the law, the law had to exist if sin is to exist. The commandments were for all mankind. If you will enter into life, keep the commandments," Matthew 19:17. The Messiah did not spend His whole life obeying the Ten Commandments, never once breaking them, just so you could be like hard-hearted Israel and ignore them. The fault was and is with the people, not YHWH's Laws."I have kept My Father's commandments John 15:10 and He was our example 1 Pet. 2:21. We either follow His example and obey the commandments or we follow the example of rebellious Israel and disobey them.

Psalms 119:123 - Mine eyes fail for thy salvation, and for the word of thy righteousness.

Psalms 119:172 - My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

Psalms 119:160 - Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

1John 2:1 - My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, the Messiah the righteous. 2 - And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 3 - Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 - He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 - But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of YHWH is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 - He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Simply put if you can show me that the messiah ate pork or anything unclean then so will I, But I can not find that in scripture.

1Cor 10:25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."

[Guest shiloh357]

He is our example, and not a liar. He is the way, the truth, and the life.

1Jo 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk even as He walked.

1Pe 2:21 For you were not called to this? For Messiah also suffered on our behalf, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps,

Psa 85:13Righteousness shall go before Him and shall set us in the way of His steps.

Joh 13:15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.

1 John 2:6 and 1Peter 2:21 are speaking the Messiah's conduct. Peter says that we are to follow His example, and then tells us what he means in vv. 22 and following. He says:

Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

(1 Peter 2:22-23)

In the verses preceding, Peter was instructing his readers to suffer injustice patiently as Messiah set the example for us when He suffered patiently the wrongful things inflicted upon Him.

Neither passage can be applied to keeping the Sabbath or staying kosher. That is not the issues being raised by the authors, and it is inappropriate to hijack those verses to impose a meaning upon them that they do not mean to convey.

We are to walk (halach) as Messiah walked. Meaning that we should order our conduct and conversation to be commissurate with the prescription set before us in Scripture. The issue is moral, not ceremonial. The context of both verses demand that we understand the references to be moral/ethical in nature, not ceremonial.

John 13:15 is talking about the example of servanthood that Yeshua displayed when He washed the feet of His disciples. Jesus never cited anything other than His character to be the example we are to follow. He was saying that if He as Lord and Master was willing humble Himself to be servant to the needs of others, then how much more should we? When we see the distance He was willing to go while in His earthly ministry, we should know that He desires to go that same distance through us.

Taking these verses and twisting them to apply to the Sabbath or to what a person eats is just sloppy.

[Zildja]

Question a wedding is a ceremony should we get married. How about paying tithe should we pay Tithe? It is part of the Old covenent? What part of eating unclean food is a ceremony?

Why do you think the sabbath is a ceremony?

Can you show me in scripture that these things are ceremonial?

(((((Neither passage can be applied to keeping the Sabbath or staying kosher. That is not the issues being raised by the authors, and it is inappropriate to hijack those verses to impose a meaning upon them that they do not mean to convey.))))

Can you show that Peter broke sabbath or eat unclean food?

Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

(1 Peter 2:22-23)

This verse starts out with he did not sin, what do you not see in this verse, we are to what as he walked. What is the meaning of sin to you?

It seems that churches will take in the tithe but abolished the rest of the Law.

Rev 22:14 Blessed3107 are they that do4160 his848 commandments,1785 that2443 they846 may have2071 right1849 to1909 the3588 tree3586 of life,2222 and2532 may enter in1525 through the3588 gates4440 into1519 the3588 city.4172

Rev 22:15 For1161 without1854 are dogs,2965 and2532 sorcerers,5333 and2532 whoremongers,4205 and2532 murderers,5406 and2532 idolaters,1496 and2532 whosoever3956 loveth5368 and2532 maketh4160 a lie.5579

[Guest shiloh357]

Question a wedding is a ceremony should we get married. How about paying tithe should we pay Tithe? It is part of the Old covenent? What part of eating unclean food is a ceremony?

Why do you think the sabbath is a ceremony?

Can you show me in scripture that these things are ceremonial?

I think it obvious. The part of the Torah we are obligated to, amounts to the moral aspects of the Torah, not to those things that pretained solely to the nation of Israel.

No one really keeps the Sabbath or the Festivals. There were sacrifices attached to these festivals that are not able to be done today. There is a about a third of the Torah that is not observed among those who claim to be Torah observant. Very few who are Torah observant require their spouse to sleep in a different room of the house during the wife's menstural emmission. Fewer make her go and be immersed in a mikveh at the end of her seven days.

No one who has a child, performs the required sacrifices of dedication. I can list a whole slew of things that so called, "Torah observant" people do not do. So, it is hypocritical to point a finger at anyone else about not keeping the Sabbath.

The Sabbath is fully observed when a person receives Messiah Yeshua as their personal Lord and Savior. When they are born again, they have fully kept the Sabbath. The Sabbath was merely vehicle to point us to the Messiah. If someone wants to keep the literal Sabbath day, I will defend their right to do so. I will, however confront vigorously ANY teaching that demands it as a mandatory, compulsory observance.

Can you show that Peter broke sabbath or eat unclean food?

NO, and I don't care if he did or didn't.

This verse starts out with he did not sin, what do you not see in this verse, we are to what as he walked. What is the meaning of sin to you?

It was the "sin" this verse is referring to is reviling, threatening, and basically returning evil for evil. Yeshua did not do those things. The verse is saying that he did not sin in the midst of his suffering, even though He was suffering unjustly. Rather, He put it into the hands of His Father who judges righteously.

It seems that churches will take in the tithe but abolished the rest of the Law.

Very few churches teach the tithe as a compulsory observance. However, they do encourage giving. There is a blessing upon those who are generous, especially when their generosity furthers the Kingdom of God.

If you are using the verse out of Revelationn to indicate that only Sabbath keepers, and Kosher eaters, etc. will go to heaven, you are sorely mistaken. That is a works based salvation heresy and will not be tolerated on this board.

[Guest Logos Believer]

Question a wedding is a ceremony should we get married. How about paying tithe should we pay Tithe? It is part of the Old covenent? What part of eating unclean food is a ceremony?

Why do you think the sabbath is a ceremony?

Can you show me in scripture that these things are ceremonial?

(((((Neither passage can be applied to keeping the Sabbath or staying kosher. That is not the issues being raised by the authors, and it is inappropriate to hijack those verses to impose a meaning upon them that they do not mean to convey.))))

Can you show that Peter broke sabbath or eat unclean food?

Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

(1 Peter 2:22-23)

This verse starts out with he did not sin, what do you not see in this verse, we are to what as he walked. What is the meaning of sin to you?

It seems that churches will take in the tithe but abolished the rest of the Law.

Rev 22:14 Blessed3107 are they that do4160 his848 commandments,1785 that2443 they846 may have2071 right1849 to1909 the3588 tree3586 of life,2222 and2532 may enter in1525 through the3588 gates4440 into1519 the3588 city.4172

Rev 22:15 For1161 without1854 are dogs,2965 and2532 sorcerers,5333 and2532 whoremongers,4205 and2532 murderers,5406 and2532 idolaters,1496 and2532 whosoever3956 loveth5368 and2532 maketh4160 a lie.5579

My question is this, Are you trying to learn Scripture and God's ways, or are you on a vendetta to prove Works. Is the Bible your SUPREME authority, and where your opinion differs from it's teachings, are you willing to Change? If not, this discussion is pointless and not worthy of the time to discuss/debate with you. If your point is to prove works, I would point you at

Gal 2:21 I am not one of those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.

Romans 6:14Sin is no longer your master, for you are no longer subject to the law, which enslaves you to sin. Instead, you are free by God's grace.

1 Tim 1:6But some teachers have missed this whole point. They have turned away from these things and spend their time arguing and talking foolishness. 7They want to be known as teachers of the law of Moses, but they don

[Ovedya]

Zildja,

Would Jesus disagree with Paul?

[Zildja]

I think yall need to back up because I never said that works can save you. I said that the Messiah is our example and that we need to look at how He kept the Laws of his FATHER. Do you agree that HE is our example? Do you agree that HE kept the Laws of HIS FATHER? Can you show me where it say Do not keep my FATHER's commandments. The main Commandments I am speaking about are the Ten Commandments which the Sabbath is part of and we are commanded to Keep the sabbath untill the thousandth Generation. I know for sure that a thousand generations have not gone by yet. Food Laws are about Health and have nothing to do with a ceremony so I do not see how you count that as a ceremonial Law.

(((Would Jesus disagree with Paul?)))

You all look at Pauls writing a whole lot diffrent then I do.

(((It was the "sin" this verse is referring to is reviling, threatening, and basically returning evil for evil. Yeshua did not do those things. The verse is saying that he did not sin in the midst of his suffering, even though He was suffering unjustly. Rather, He put it into the hands of His Father who judges righteously.))))

Yes and we should do the same thing. The messiah is our example and there will come a time when we will go through much of what he did and He is asking us to do as he did, which is not Sin. What I think you do not understand is that the Laws of the FATHER tell us what sin is.

We are to have Faith in the Messiah, what is the Messiah?

Logos I will go through the links you posted but not at the moment, I am at call at work and need to go in in a few min's

Peter has never eaten anything common or unclean. Yet this is many years after The Messiah's resurrection and ascension. If The Messiah had declared all foods clean in Mark 7:19 then why does he still hold to the commandment not to do so? And even go a step furthur and reject the voice that told him to do so???

I think that is a very fare Question.

1Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding] to abstain from foods which The FATHER created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Now if what Paul is speaking of here is the doctrine of abstaining from eating unclean animals then why does he refer to this doctrine as one of the 'doctrines of demons' ? Is it not a doctrine of of FATHER YAH? It is a Commandment of the FATHER, not a doctrine of demons.

4 For every creature of YHWH [is] good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of YHWH and prayer.

Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

[Zildja]

To understand Paul here we must understand that the Corinthians were Pagans

it is very obvious that those in Corinth had some major sin to deal with.

1Corinthians 15:34 - Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of Elohim: I speak this to your shame.

Let me show you how I look at :

1Co 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

1Co 10:26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

Note verse 26...

The earth is YHWH's and all its fullness

The reasoning for Paul's stance is that all animals belong to YHWH. Truly the earth and all the animals that dwell therein does belong to YHWH.

If we with a pure heart are eating an animal that YHWH has not forbidden us to eat then surely there is no sin in that.

The problem was that the believers in Corinth and also in Rome were surrounded by paganism.

1Corinthians 10:27 - If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

This phrase 'eat what is set before you' is not a new one. Yahshua used it when sending out the seventy:

Luke 10:8 - And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:

Luke 10:9 - And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of YHWH is come nigh unto you.

Continuing in 1 Corinthians

1Co 10:27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

1Co 10:28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:

1Co 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?

1Co 10:30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?

How can this scripture ('the earth is YHWH's and all its fullness') be quoted to support both of these views?

Consider that you were eating and one were to tell you that this meat is from an animal sacrificed unto a false idol. By continuing to eat it the person who told you this may think that you don't acknowledge that the earth is YHWH's and all its fullness.

Rather they may think that you believe the earth was not created by YHWH.

Knowing that all things were created by YHWH is the key to proving that all the idols are worthless because YHWH truly has made all things.

1Corinthians 10:30 - For if I by favor be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?

If we are giving thanks to YHWH for our food, which He has created, we are acknowledging it was He who has given us these things.

and not an idol

1Corinthians 10:31 - Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of YHWH.

This is the whole point of what is being said to those in Corinth. Even though they do not recognize that an idol is anything, we do not want to eat anything that might cause YHWH to be looked upon with a lesser degree of glory.

So as you can see we both have compleatly diffrent way of Looking at Pauls writings.

It is not that I am playing some game with you I see scripture diffrently then you do.

Plan and simple I see no place in scripture where it states Do not keep the Commandments.

Over and over we are told to keep the Commandments.

And My name is Zildja not Dildja

[Guest Logos Believer]

I think yall need to back up because I never said that works can save you. I said that the Messiah is our example and that we need to look at how He kept the Laws of his FATHER. Do you agree that HE is our example? Do you agree that HE kept the Laws of HIS FATHER? Can you show me where it say Do not keep my FATHER's commandments. The main Commandments I am speaking about are the Ten Commandments which the Sabbath is part of and we are commanded to Keep the sabbath untill the thousandth Generation. I know for sure that a thousand generations have not gone by yet. Food Laws are about Health and have nothing to do with a ceremony so I do not see how you count that as a ceremonial Law.

(((Would Jesus disagree with Paul?)))

You all look at Pauls writing a whole lot diffrent then I do.

(((It was the "sin" this verse is referring to is reviling, threatening, and basically returning evil for evil. Yeshua did not do those things. The verse is saying that he did not sin in the midst of his suffering, even though He was suffering unjustly. Rather, He put it into the hands of His Father who judges righteously.))))

Yes and we should do the same thing. The messiah is our example and there will come a time when we will go through much of what he did and He is asking us to do as he did, which is not Sin. What I think you do not understand is that the Laws of the FATHER tell us what sin is.

We are to have Faith in the Messiah, what is the Messiah?

Logos I will go through the links you posted but not at the moment, I am at call at work and need to go in in a few min's

Peter has never eaten anything common or unclean. Yet this is many years after The Messiah's resurrection and ascension. If The Messiah had declared all foods clean in Mark 7:19 then why does he still hold to the commandment not to do so? And even go a step furthur and reject the voice that told him to do so???

I think that is a very fare Question.

1Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding] to abstain from foods which The FATHER created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Now if what Paul is speaking of here is the doctrine of abstaining from eating unclean animals then why does he refer to this doctrine as one of the 'doctrines of demons' ? Is it not a doctrine of of FATHER YAH? It is a Commandment of the FATHER, not a doctrine of demons.

4 For every creature of YHWH [is] good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of YHWH and prayer.

Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

It would seem then that you are honestly questioning and not on an agenda, so I will stay with this conversation. The last two quotes you list actually prove the other side, that ALL meats are clean for food. I will add this scripture:

Titus 1:13That testimony is true. For this reason rebuke them sharply, so that they may become sound in the faith, 14not paying attention to Jewish myths or to commandments of those who reject the truth. 15To the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure. Their very minds and consciences are corrupted. 16They profess to know God, but they deny him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

As to Peter. Because they don't mention him eating Pork or other unclean foods is NOT proof he didn't. However, and I don't have time to look up the reference, there is one occasion in Acts where Paul Chides Peter AND Barnabas for segregating themselves from the Gentiles in one instance where the Jews were making a fuss about their 'better calling' and Both Peter and Barnabas agreeded, repented and returned to Being A Gentile. Paul himself makes MANY references to acting like a Jew to convert Jews, ie get the message to them, and acting as a Gentile to convert the gentiles, and so on. Being ALL THINGS to ALL MEN so that He might Convert ALL who are chosen, as I recall the scriptures. Sorry I don't have time at the moment to look them all up for you, but I have to run

May Jesus Bless and Guide you

[Zildja]

(((Titus 1:13That testimony is true. For this reason rebuke them sharply, so that they may become sound in the faith, 14not paying attention to Jewish myths or to commandments of those who reject the truth. 15To the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure. Their very minds and consciences are corrupted. 16They profess to know God, but they deny him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.))))

So you are saying that food laws are Jewish myth and commands of man and not YHWH?

Youngs Lit.

Tit 1:13 this testimony is true; for which cause convict them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,

Tit 1:14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commands of men, turning themselves away from the truth;

Tit 1:15 all things, indeed, pure to the pure, and to the defiled and unstedfast is nothing pure, but of them defiled are even the mind and the conscience;

Tit 1:16 God they profess to know, and in the works they deny Him , being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work disapproved.

I do not know what version you used, But it was not a word for word. So I posted another.