Freewill

[apothanein kerdos]

God will do His will whether He is asked to do it or not. If He had to be asked, then we wouldn't exist (no one asked Him to create man).

AGAIN, verses please. It took an ass to change Balak's mind. It took a whale to change Jonah's mind. God has certainly intervened in history, that is not the argument, God USES every condition/situation of man to bring glory to Himself, for good or for evil. But you seem to be hinting at God having created a bunch of robots, which is not the case at all. He makes it plain: "Choose you this day whom you shall serve." This may appear as a conundrum, because God's purposes will be fulfilled no matter what we do, either for good or for evil. Yet we do CHOOSE!"

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

I'm not saying we don't have the ability to choose or that we are robots. I am saying that our Will is limited (as you just proved). We can choose to sin, we can choose to serve. At the same time, if God absolutely wants something done, He'll get it done...whether we pray for it or not.

[Dad Ernie]

I'm not saying we don't have the ability to choose or that we are robots. I am saying that our Will is limited (as you just proved). We can choose to sin, we can choose to serve. At the same time, if God absolutely wants something done, He'll get it done...whether we pray for it or not.

Greetings Apo,

Balak's will was quite contrary to God's purposes, but HAD TO HAVE His mind changed (his will) by the portent laid before him by the ass. Same with Jonah. They still had the ability to choose, but wisely, they changed their mind. God did NOT force them to correct their behavior.

Do you believe that we can get God to change His mind through prayer and supplication? Isn't that what Jesus preached? Remember the neighbor that needed bread late night and hounded his neighbor until he got a response? There are many parables that indicate it is us, particularly as Christians, who ask ACCORDING TO GOD'S WILL, that brings his might to bear.

I like the following verse:

2 Chron 7:14-15 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 15 Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.

I still ask for scriptures which support your contention.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[apothanein kerdos]

I'm not saying we don't have the ability to choose or that we are robots. I am saying that our Will is limited (as you just proved). We can choose to sin, we can choose to serve. At the same time, if God absolutely wants something done, He'll get it done...whether we pray for it or not.

Greetings Apo,

Balak's will was quite contrary to God's purposes, but HAD TO HAVE His mind changed (his will) by the portent laid before him by the ass. Same with Jonah. They still had the ability to choose, but wisely, they changed their mind. God did NOT force them to correct their behavior.

Do you believe that we can get God to change His mind through prayer and supplication? Isn't that what Jesus preached? Remember the neighbor that needed bread late night and hounded his neighbor until he got a response? There are many parables that indicate it is us, particularly as Christians, who ask ACCORDING TO GOD'S WILL, that brings his might to bear.

I like the following verse:

2 Chron 7:14-15 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 15 Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.

I still ask for scriptures which support your contention.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

I guess you're right....God has no power....we are more powerful than God.

See where your conclusion leads? God will only act when man chooses/asks Him to (so long as it is His will). Man does not act, therefore God does not act. This means God is limited by man.

Regardless, Jonah had no choice, unless you call death a viable choice. He was told to go, he chose not to, God put Him in a giant fish, gave him the choice again, and he "chose" to go. Basically, God would have done the same thing. What do you think His interaction with Israel is? It's a constant, "Fine, you won't choose my way, I'll force you my way." In Hosea He talks of how He "hems in" Israel. This means He leaves them with no choice but to follow Him. With Paul, He told Paul what he would do, not what he could do. With Pharoh, he hardened his heart, without Pharoh choosing to be hardened.

[Guest LadyC]

I guess you're right....God has no power....we are more powerful than God. thumbsup.gif

wait wait wait... that's not at all the point trying to be made. the point is that God IS all powerful, and His power is made perfect in our weakness. only when we acknowledge that we are not capable of handling it and ask God for His intervention, can things be accomplished as they should be... so it's more along the lines of God giving us enough rope to hang ourselves until we get our selfish pride out of the way and ask for His help... only then do we submit our will to His.

i need to do more studying on this subject. on the one hand i think i may have been too quick to agree with something i heard during service without looking deeper into it, but on the other hand, AK i think you may be misinterpreting the point we're trying to make, too. by the way, what does your nickname mean? i can't pronounce it, much less spell it...

[Guest LadyC]

the story of jonah describes consequences to rebellion... God did not offer jonah a choice of death, jonah was never in danger of death from that whale. jonah was stubborn and prideful and rebellious and would not submit his will to God. that was his choice. God gave jonah a consequence of taking a cruise in a whale's belly, with no harm coming to him other than some discomfort and stench and maybe some bleaching of the skin. much the same as legal consequences when someone rebels against the law and goes to prison. they get a free ride on taxpayer money that is extremely unpleasant. but when they're released, they still have the choice to lead a crime free life or return to their old ways.... and if they return to their old ways, they may very well face consequences again. but it's still a choice... some choose to live law-abiding lives, like jonah did. others choose to keep going back into the belly of the whale.

[eric]

Dad Ernie, Good to see you back in the "fray" so to speak. I, for one, have missed your input in some of the forums. Welcome back.

in Him,

eric

[vitality22004]

We were the only ones created in God's image and the only ones who could say No! to our creator. In Psalm 29 and most of Job, He details how the rest of creation is totally under His control.

[Dad Ernie]

We were the only ones created in God's image and the only ones who could say No! to our creator. In Psalm 29 and most of Job, He details how the rest of creation is totally under His control.

Greetings Vitality,

Don't forget all the angels have FREE WILL as well, as can be seen by the rebellion of Satan and his minions in contrast to those who obeyed God.

I am sure Satan hates the fact that right now he can be seen as so much greater than us weak human vessels, yet those in Christ shall JUDGE him on the last day. Even now the seal of the Holy Spirit upon us thwarts his activities. That really makes him made when we don't bow down to his ways.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[shaitiger]

We have will, but not free will. If we have free will then God isn't sovereign. For those who believe in free will, why is it they pray to God for their friends/loved ones to be saved? By doing so they are asking God to override that person's will so that they will receive Him. God's sovereignty is all over the Bible. For the meat and potatoes, read Romans 8.

About your question, both humans and animals have will. What makes us different than the animals is that we have a spirit.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Shaitiger,

We have will, but not free will. If we have free will then God isn't sovereign. For those who believe in free will, why is it they pray to God for their friends/loved ones to be saved? By doing so they are asking God to override that person's will so that they will receive Him. God's sovereignty is all over the Bible. For the meat and potatoes, read Romans 8.

How is it then that we are commanded to pray for others? If we use Jesus as our example then consider:

Luke 22:31-32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

It is clear that we are supposed to pray for our brethren in Christ by many scriptures, but I contend that we should be praying for everyone, PARTICULARLY for their salvation.

About your question, both humans and animals have will. What makes us different than the animals is that we have a spirit.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

07307 ruwach {roo'-akh}

from 07306; TWOT - 2131a; n f

AV - Spirit or spirit 232, wind 92, breath 27, side 6, mind 5, blast 4,

vain 2, air 1, anger 1, cool 1, courage 1, misc 6; 378

1) wind, breath, mind, spirit

1a) breath

1b) wind

1b1) of heaven

1b2) quarter (of wind), side

1b3) breath of air

1b4) air, gas

1b5) vain, empty thing

1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)

1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour

1c2) courage

1c3) temper, anger

1c4) impatience, patience

1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)

1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable

impulse

1c7) prophetic spirit

1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)

1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at

death, disembodied being

1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)

1e1) desire

1e2) sorrow, trouble

1f) spirit

1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts

1f2) rarely of the will

1f3) as seat especially of moral character

1g) spirit of God

1g1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy

1g2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning

1g3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative

power

1g4) as endowing men with various gifts

1g5) as energy of life

1g6) ancient angel and later Shekinah

Please explain to me the use of "ruwach" for both man and animal?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie