The Secularisation of Christian Music

[Blood Stained Soul]

Greetings in Christ Jesus! I knew the other side of this debate would chime in eventually. Now that your here and posting, let me ask you three questions.

1) To whom does our worship belong?

2) Does Christian mean to be Christ-like?

3) Secular music glorifies the very things Christ and his Word speak against, so why partake of it? By partaking, even for "memories" you are lending you support to the devils camp.

With this said...if I cannot worship Jesus Christ and lift up Holy Hands to it(and yes I have done that to some Hardcore Christian music as well), then My ears do not partake of it. Like the old timers are found of saying...spend enough time around filth and eventually you will get filthy...Bands do not have to answer to other Christians but they do have to answer to the Lord. If one looks at my above threads I never said it was bad for them to be found on secular radios...Jesus never intended for us to be isolated but he did insulate us with the Holy Spirit. The intention of this post was not secular versus Christian music...that sort of thing is between you and the Lord...stay open to the Holy Spirit and let him purge you..I know some good hearted children of God who listen to secular music...I do not bash them for it, they know my stance...and I only give my opinion when the door is opened...and God plants seeds...I simply pray for them...by the way...ORINGINAL music...its found in Heaven...not some druggie 70's band...not meant to be a cheap shot...Music is Gods....and the devil corupted it. Blessings all.

[Guest yod]

Greetings in Christ Jesus! I knew the other side of this debate would chime in eventually. Now that your here and posting, let me ask you three questions.

more than happy to oblige.....

1) To whom does our worship belong?

Oh...

Are we talking only about worship music? There are many different purposes for music...most of it is not worship. There is background music, there is commercial/industrial music, there is educational music (mostly children's songs), there is music for entertainment, music for sleeping, music for dancing, music for dining...etc...etc...etc.

So are we discussing only music used for worshipping?

If so, is this further confined to music used in a congregational setting?

2) Does Christian mean to be Christ-like?

Hey...we should go into selling bracelts that say "WMWJL"

What Music Would Jesus Like?

If you are going where I think you are going with that statement then we should only sing/listen to the Psalms with jewish melodies sung in hebrew....which btw is something else I do.

3) Secular music glorifies the very things Christ and his Word speak against, so why partake of it? By partaking, even for "memories" you are lending you support to the devils camp.

Not all of it. For instance, Al Green sang quite a few love songs that would be entirely appropriate within a marriage. Led Zep did a lot of songs based on literary works of the christian author Tolkien. U2 writes songs about living in a spiritual journey from their own perspective. 3 of the 4 members claim to be christians. Can you prove they are not? They are walking a tougher line than someone who never has to leave the comfort of a religious box.

If it is a stumbling block then one should not listen. It is also one of those areas where each person has to account for it individually.

I would be the first person to say you can't be a christian and live on a musical diet of Marilyn Manson or Danzig but I don't feel the need to shoot some heroin when I listen to Zep on the rare occasion.

I am listening for originality in the songwriting....but there are a few thousand christian bands who do worship music better.

After I've heard a few songs from Zep I'm tired of it and that's that. Pretty much the same way I feel about Third Day or POD.

if I cannot worship Jesus Christ and lift up Holy Hands to it(and yes I have done that to some Hardcore Christian music as well), then My ears do not partake of it

do you turn the sound down on your TV? Do you take the stairs instead of the elevator? The point is that you hear music all the time which doesn't effect your spirit in a negative way. If you don't like a song or it makes you feel dirty in some way then, yes, you definitely should turn that off...

.

Like the old timers are found of saying...spend enough time around filth and eventually you will get filthy

.

it is a question of balance. I'm not a tee-totaler anymore...though I used to be and I know where you are coming from.

..Bands do not have to answer to other Christians

can I quote you on that?

I know some good hearted children of God who listen to secular music...I do not bash them for it, they know my stance...and I only give my opinion when the door is opened...and God plants seeds...I simply pray for them...by the way...ORINGINAL music...its found in Heaven...not some druggie 70's band...not meant to be a cheap shot...Music is Gods....and the devil corupted it. Blessings all.

I'm sure I will enjoy the music in heaven immensely. I plan to see David right after Jesus so I can learn the "original" way those Psalms went.

In the meantime, I have no fear of secular music. It's not my usual choice but when christian stations are playing junk being marketed as the only "acceptable christian choice" then I'll change the channel.

[Blood Stained Soul]

Greetings in Christ Jesus! I knew the other side of this debate would chime in eventually. Now that your here and posting, let me ask you three questions.

more than happy to oblige.....

1) To whom does our worship belong?

Oh...

Are we talking only about worship music? There are many different purposes for music...most of it is not worship. There is background music, there is commercial/industrial music, there is educational music (mostly children's songs), there is music for entertainment, music for sleeping, music for dancing, music for dining...etc...etc...etc.

So are we discussing only music used for worshipping?

If so, is this further confined to music used in a congregational setting?

2) Does Christian mean to be Christ-like?

Hey...we should go into selling bracelts that say "WMWJL"

What Music Would Jesus Like?

If you are going where I think you are going with that statement then we should only sing/listen to the Psalms with jewish melodies sung in hebrew....which btw is something else I do.

"

3) Secular music glorifies the very things Christ and his Word speak against, so why partake of it? By partaking, even for "memories" you are lending you support to the devils camp.

Not all of it. For instance, Al Green sang quite a few love songs that would be entirely appropriate within a marriage. Led Zep did a lot of songs based on literary works of the christian author Tolkien. U2 writes songs about living in a spiritual journey from their own perspective. 3 of the 4 members claim to be christians. Can you prove they are not? They are walking a tougher line than someone who never has to leave the comfort of a religious box.

If it is a stumbling block then one should not listen. It is also one of those areas where each person has to account for it individually.

I would be the first person to say you can't be a christian and live on a musical diet of Marilyn Manson or Danzig but I don't feel the need to shoot some heroin when I listen to Zep on the rare occasion.

I am listening for originality in the songwriting....but there are a few thousand christian bands who do worship music better.

After I've heard a few songs from Zep I'm tired of it and that's that. Pretty much the same way I feel about Third Day or POD.

if I cannot worship Jesus Christ and lift up Holy Hands to it(and yes I have done that to some Hardcore Christian music as well), then My ears do not partake of it

do you turn the sound down on your TV? Do you take the stairs instead of the elevator? The point is that you hear music all the time which doesn't effect your spirit in a negative way. If you don't like a song or it makes you feel dirty in some way then, yes, you definitely should turn that off...

.

Like the old timers are found of saying...spend enough time around filth and eventually you will get filthy

.

it is a question of balance. I'm not a tee-totaler anymore...though I used to be and I know where you are coming from.

..Bands do not have to answer to other Christians

can I quote you on that?

I know some good hearted children of God who listen to secular music...I do not bash them for it, they know my stance...and I only give my opinion when the door is opened...and God plants seeds...I simply pray for them...by the way...ORINGINAL music...its found in Heaven...not some druggie 70's band...not meant to be a cheap shot...Music is Gods....and the devil corupted it. Blessings all.

I'm sure I will enjoy the music in heaven immensely. I plan to see David right after Jesus so I can learn the "original" way those Psalms went.

In the meantime, I have no fear of secular music. It's not my usual choice but when christian stations are playing junk being marketed as the only "acceptable christian choice" then I'll change the channel.

Greetings in Christ! Thanks for taking the intelligent route on this one...you would be surprised how vulgar and rude some "Christians" are when talking about this subject. Being that you are keeping open minded about reading my post, I will continue some. Though in the end it is only the Lord who can convict us, I will at least share my perspective.

You say there are many purposes for music, can you back this up with scripture? For I can site the Book of Psalms, the writings of Paul and numerous others as eveidence that musics purpose is for Worship. Now they did not have cars...but they did have flocks...and never read scripture where hey sang about selling sheep fo as little as 399.00 a month payment plan.

Worship music cannot be confined just as (though some try) you cannot confine God in some little box. If your worship of GOD is confined to Church Service...then that is pretty bad off in my opinion. If you truly have the God if this universe in you, how can you NOT worship him several times a day.

Yes I am of the thinking that one should listen to only Christian music, as it is the only music that can edify the soul. Trust me I had thousands of dollars sunk into my music collection, then I got saved and filled with Holy Ghost...and it all went into the trash..when you are truly born again...there is a change...a distinct difference should happen...things that are of the world should no longer attract you...you shold be drawn to the Light of Christ and all that glorifies him.

"U2 writes songs about living in a spiritual journey from their own perspective. 3 of the 4 members claim to be christians. Can you prove they are not?"

All I need to do is do as the Lord Jesus Christ instructed in his Word to do...examine the fruit...thats where you get "proof

On this one here I will say your dead wrong and leave it at that, that debate would not be profitable at this time...all one has to do is look at lyrics and lifestyles to prove my point.

BALANCE? When i hear this I think of something my uncle was told me....he said you cannot straddle the fence...its either one side or the other..else you get hurt by the pickets. I believe that applies to the situation your describing. A straddling between the things of this World and the Kingdom of God.

[Guest yod]

You say there are many purposes for music, can you back this up with scripture?

That's easy enough but usually folks on "your side" of the debate don't receive it anyway.

David played a harp which soothed Saul. Nowhere does it say that he played worship songs...he just played music.

the Song of Solomon is a love song.

Miriam prophesied with the tambourine.

The shofar blast (horn) was a call to war....

The Silver trumpets were blown only on Rosh Hashanna and when you heard them you were to drop everything and rush to the Temple.

There are a couple more examples if I wanted to examine further but that should be enough to show that there are different purposes of music throughout the Bible. However, that shouldn't even be necessary. Not everything has a scriptural basis.

Can you give me scripture for why christians can drive cars?

Worship music cannot be confined just as (though some try) you cannot confine God in some little box.

seems like I just said that....

If your worship of GOD is confined to Church Service...then that is pretty bad off in my opinion. If you truly have the God if this universe in you, how can you NOT worship him several times a day.

Not sure why you are changing the subject here. I have never advocated otherwise. One does not necessariy need music to worship G-d

Yes I am of the thinking that one should listen to only Christian music, as it is the only music that can edify the soul. Trust me I had thousands of dollars sunk into my music collection, then I got saved and filled with Holy Ghost...and it all went into the trash..when you are truly born again...there is a change...a distinct difference should happen...things that are of the world should no longer attract you...you shold be drawn to the Light of Christ and all that glorifies him.

I was the same way for many years.....it's not a stumbling block for me anymore. Maybe there is a difference in my case because I am a musician. I listen to music for different reasons than your average consumer

"U2 writes songs about living in a spiritual journey from their own perspective. 3 of the 4 members claim to be christians. Can you prove they are not?"

All I need to do is do as the Lord Jesus Christ instructed in his Word to do...examine the fruit...thats where you get "proof

theirs is a different battlefield. I think Bono is changing the world with his campaign to help the poor nations of Africa. Is U2 a shining example of religiosity? Nah....they have been photographed with beers in their hand!

On this one here I will say your dead wrong and leave it at that, that debate would not be profitable at this time...all one has to do is look at lyrics and lifestyles to prove my point.

I think you are assuming far too much.

BALANCE? When i hear this I think of something my uncle was told me....he said you cannot straddle the fence...its either one side or the other..else you get hurt by the pickets. I believe that applies to the situation your describing. A straddling between the things of this World and the Kingdom of God.

there is a huge difference between balance and indecision. If you don't

know the difference then this conversation is useless.

[traveller]

Very informational and interesting thread gentlemen! I applaud your cool heads as well.

[Guest Bride of Christ]

Just figured I'd add my two-cents in here...

I have been serving the Lord for just over a year now and He has grown me quite rapidly in my short walk. Before I got saved, I bought the MaryMary single, Unshackled. I don't really know why I bought it, but I did. I really liked it...sang along with it and everything. They mentioned Praising Him in their lyrics.....while I was singing along, I always thought "Praise WHO?" I had no clue who they were talking about at that time because I lacked the knowledge of who Jesus Christ was.

I agree with B.S.S, when you truly meet the Lord Jesus Christ, there is a dramatic change in you. The very things of this world should no longer appeal to you....secular music included. The Scripture Be ye SEPERATE and HOLY comes to mind here. How can we, as the children of the Lord, be seperate and Holy if we are allowing the things of this world into our lives? We are called to be a peculiar people....not in the eyes of our Lord and Savior, but in the eyes of the unsaved. If we are partaking of the same exact things that they are, what is the difference between us and them?

If music doesn't mention the Lord or His Kingdom or the things therein, it's trash. Yes, that includes musicians that call themselves Christians.....not everyone who claims the name, walks the walk......that's where examination of the fruits they're bearing is necessary.

As Christians, we shouldn't be allowing the junk of this world in our lives. Yes, we need to be sharing the Gospel with the unsaved....but you don't need to go into a bar and have a drink with them to do it. Our very lives are a testimony of the workings of the Lord Jesus Christ.....and being such, we should be aware of the kind of message we are sending with our lifestyles. It's a narrow path that we walk, but it's the only way.

If indeed U2 was photographed with a beer in their hands, that in itself is enough evidence for me that they aren't walking the walk they should be if they are claiming to be Christians.....but I won't get into that, that's for an entirely different thread.

On another point, I think it's a shame that Christian artists feel they need to incorporate the trash music of the secular world into theirs. It's compromise. It doesn't matter if you take the secular lyrics out and just use the secular tune, it's devils trash. As I heard a Brother in Christ say once, you have the Creator of the Universe living inside you....why do you need to use the devils junk in the music you preform?

Blessings.

[Guest yod]

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,

21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" (and the newest one "do not listen")22 which all refer to things destined to perish with use--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

[Guest Bride of Christ]

If the Lord intended what you added to be there, it would be there....the Word doesn't need man to add his thought to it. A bit of salt there, yes, I know....

1John 2:15 reads, "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

[Guest yod]

Bride...

I don't want to see you stumble so let me make my position clear.

It is not that which goes into a man that defiles him.....but what comes out.

As a new believer you should absolutely isolate yourself from your sin nature. If that includes music that encouraged a life of sin then by all means burn your entire collection.

I am not going to advocate that christians SHOULD be listening to secular music (because I don't do that as a habit) nor am I going to say that christian music is now secularized because they use electric guitars.

This whole stupid debate reminds me of a satirical quote from Steve Taylor (christian artist) when he jokingly says,

" Who cares if we aren't talented? We're christians! Line our pockets with your cash instead of those in the secular companies!"

In the interest of balancing an extreme position which began this thread, I will also not allow anything but the Word of God and His Holy Spirit to dictate to me what is acceptable to christians.

Certainly there was ungodly music in Corinth, Epephesus,

Rome, Colossia.....but Paul didn't mention it as "the" problem, did he?

If you are not strong enough to reject the spirit of anti-christ then you should lock yourself in your room because it's not just in music.

If we were all to take your extreme position of "anything that isn't worshipping God is trash" then we can't read the newspaper or watch anything on TV (except TBN which has more heresy than NYPD Blue).

Our only option is to gouge out our eyes and plug our ears...but then we still have to deal with our imagination so let's go ahead and get a lobotomy too.

I see billboards on the side of the highway when I'm driving that promote all kinds of envy and covetousness. (I think this is the most idolotrous thing in America!)

I choose to reject their messages while still being able to tell if the ad is clever or if the advertising company has any technical excellence. Can you see what I'm talking about when I relate that same ability to judge talent in music?

[Catsmeow]

You know we're all gonna end up joining the Pharisees if we keep judging another's servants.

If you think you'll reach some kid in the ghetto with southern gospel music, forget it.

When you work with inner city youth, you won't get far.

Why don't people read the WHOLE bible instead of one part of it and make their own religion from it.

If it offends you, fine. Don't listen, by all means.

But in Indonesia, where I served in missions, the Indonesian converts listened to Christian music within their own cultural context.

Likewise there is a cultural context in every society...we, in America happen to be a melting pot of cultures...from deep, southern tradition to New Yorkers to inner city youth to ....well, classical, jazz...you name it.

Paul said, "I've become all things to all men for the gospel's sake"...why do people just ignore the heart of what Paul is saying here?

If people don't listen to JUST what WE like, they're a bunch of no good sinners...and doomed.

Oh man, I can't wait till Jesus comes back and kills this judgemental attitude.

If someone was justifying immoral behavior (*nudist colonies for instance) then I'd see your point.

But one person says it's terrible to use ANY musical instruments while another thinks it has to be music that "sounds" holy to them.

Who are we to judge another's servant?