an atheists point of veiw

[maxm2820]

i found this in a kids blog on myspace.com. i think it was taken from question posted on a christian forum and i want to see what others think about all this. if i didn't know Christ i would say that he has some very valid points. my questions are (1) how would you "counter" something like this, (2) how would you "witness" to somone like this, and (3) what are your beliefs in the bible; litteral or figurative and why?

jakeWrote:

Do you know what a dispensation is? The Mosaic Law had under its Law the provisions against relations with a woman while she was menstruating and not eating pork or wearing mixed linens etc. But, the question is "Are we in that same dispensation today" "Do those same laws apply to us today?" The answer is no. We are not under the Law any longer. We are under Grace, ushered in by Jesus who brought Grace and became the fulfillment of the Law. Do you understand?

Secondly, how can you be a big fan of Jesus unless you accept Him as God? His teachings were that He was God in the flesh--so either He actually was and is or He is a lunatic. There is no middle ground when you consider who Jesus actually claimed to be--that is--God manifest in the flesh.

LouisWrote: (byt the way Louis is the athiest)

First of all -- you are quite the apologeticist -- kudos on a complete rationalization of your faith.

As for the doctrine of dispensation...why would an omnipotent god change the rules? You say 'dispensation', I say 'contradiction.' A perfect, all-knowing being comes up with a plan for humanity that includes the radical reworking of his own law? That is the best solution? I am a mere human, and I could improve upon almost all of gods methods and actions...as could you, were you willing to entertain such conjecture.

And Jesus...you are seeing things from a literalist point of view, here. Point out the passage in the gospels where jesus says this: "I am literally the son of the jewish god yaweh, and am their long-promised messiah, who, according to prophesy, will lead the jewish people from the very earthly subjugation of foriegn rulers. I am going to be crucified by pontius pilate on golgatha and buried in a tomb by Joseph of Arimathea. Three days later, I will arise from the dead, because I am god, and I am all-powerful."

Such a passage does not exist, my friend. What does exist in our version of the bible are cryptic annalogies, hegography, and poor translations of 3rd hand accounts, altered for 2000 years until today -- lots of "I am the son of man" and "I am he that is" mysticism. There is NO WAY to prove that ANYTHING quoted by the authors of the gospels accredited to Jesus is accurate.

However, if one looks at jesus from a socio-political standpoint, what do we have? A radical egalitarian with progressive, modern, and humanistic views of women, criminals, and social justice. We have the beatitudes. We have jesus' rejection of the bloated, corrupt churches. We have the 2 greatest commandments. We have the episode with the money changers. We see a political rebel, mocking ceaser by entering jerusalem on a donkey, lauded with palm fronds instead of laurels. We see that jesus most likely anticipated his trial (for political rebellion) and his martyrdom (what other sentence was there to be had for a dissenter of rome?) and, in order to protect his apostles and amplify his message of self-sacrifice, allowed himself to be killed, rather than flee. THAT I can respect.

SO, to sum up:

1) God changes the rules almost schizophrenically half way through the bible, when it is supposedly in his power to execute his 'plan' in a much more cogent fashion.

2) The bible is either the literal word of god, in which case god is a horribly contradictory writer, the earth is 6000 years old and created in 7 days, and there was a flood that literaly covered all of the land on earth....or the bible is figurative, and therefore open to interperetation, and addmittably changed through translation and hegography, in which case the few passages in which jesus hints at LITERALLY being the son of god could have easily been changed. You can't have it both ways.

3) The either or fallacy comes into play when claiming that jesus was either the son of god, or he was a crazy liar. I don't agree with all of bob marley's agenda, but that doesn't mean I can't admire him for putting an end to the political strife in jamaica. Stop thinking in absolutes -- you sound like your god.

[ElijahSK]

The first thing I would say is it is not our job to change anyone's mind about God's inspiration of the Bible. If someone is not willing to see the divine hand over the Bible, I'd still let them know what it says about them and what they need and let them be. The Bible has shown itself scientifically, archeologically, astronomically, and historically accurate. The evidence is only hard to find for someone who doesn't wish to believe in it.

The Law came so that sin would increase and become exceedingly sinful. Except that the law told us, we would have no knowledge as those before Moses of what God requires of us. By grace we don't make void the law, we establish it. God didn't allow the gentiles to come in so they could act as the Jews did in unbelief. The new covenant was made to put the law in our hearts, so we would follow it by our faith and not the letter. Should we continue is sin that grace may abound? God forbid! The question is not should we, the question is how can we? How can we that are dead to it live any longer therein? For sin will not have dominion over us, because we are under grace and not the law. What then? Should we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid! Don't you know that whoever you yield yourselves as servants to obey, you are a servant to the one you obey, whether it be to sin unto death or to obedience unto righteousness?

Christ didn't come so that we would sin and be justified even though we do. Rather he can so that the righteousness of God may be fulfilled in us. That what the Jews couldn't do before being under the law trying to fulfill it in the weakness of their flesh, God accomplished by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to condemn sin in the flesh. Now if we are in Christ, we are in the likeness of His death, and if we are dead with Him we are dead to sin. Sin has no more power over us, and now we can walk in newness of life. Grace is not a license to sin, but the means to overcoming it. If you overcome it by grace, you can only glory in the one who supplied the grace.

In the same way that Christ died once unto sin and then lives to the Father, likewise we should believe we are. Because we were crucified with him, that the body of sin would be destroyed, that henceforth we should no longer serve sin. And being crucified with Him, we also believe we are resurrected like Him. We are a new creature now, and the old person we were with all it's lusts has been crucified, not to be raised again.

I'm glad at least these guys know you must either take all of the Bible literally or figuratively. But most of their argument can be summed up as wrangling over words. They make faulty assertions because they have no faith. They have deceived their own selves, and nothing short of God's drawing them will suffice. I hope maybe something I've written here will help you. If not, don't even worry about premeditation of what you will say, study to show yourself approved and remember that the answer of your tongue is from the Lord.

Good luck!

Edited March 23, 2006 by ElijahSK

[ZhenQing]

To me, rejecting God's existence is like rejecting my existence in this world. I mean the air we breathe, the trees around us, the people around us in flesh and blood. Not only we have five senses, but we have a logical mind that can formulate. Our body created so perfect that with just a little defect would bring us nearly to our deathbed! And where did all these things come from? Don't tell me it originated from Big Bang Theory or it came out from nothing. Things can't just pop out of nowhere. Scientifically, we've learned that every effect must have a cause. We're the effect of our parents' bond, our parents are the effect of our ancestors', and our ancestors were the effect of what? There must be a cause to our existence. It's so evidential and so obvious in front of our eyes, even tribal people who are uncultured, uneducated, do believe in some kind of god and do know how to give thanks. Some believe in mother earth, god of this, and god of that, and they offer offerings to them. We, educated people, who think highly of ourselves as smart and knowledgeable people, through many of our deep thoughts, cannot tell there's at least a God? Why is it so easy for uneducated, uncultured, and poverish people to believe in God, than those in modern society? One of the main reasons is because they now live in a world where people have everything. They don't need God to give them materialistic things; they got doctors, they don't need God to heal them. This is how people become conceited, thinking that they can build happiness with their own hands and brain. But u got to think, who gave you those hands and brain? Was it your parents? Your ancestors? If yes then, where did your ancestors got theirs from? If you think I'm unreasonable, then you are more unreasonable, because I say with proof of the world's existence, including you in it. Can you deny your existence?

[~SPIRITBLADE~]

To me, rejecting God's existence is like rejecting my existence in this world. I mean the air we breathe, the trees around us, the people around us in flesh and blood. Not only we have five senses, but we have a logical mind that can formulate. Our body created so perfect that with just a little defect would bring us nearly to our deathbed! And where did all these things come from? Don't tell me it originated from Big Bang Theory or it came out from nothing. Things can't just pop out of nowhere. Scientifically, we've learned that every effect must have a cause. We're the effect of our parents' bond, our parents are the effect of our ancestors', and our ancestors were the effect of what? There must be a cause to our existence. It's so evidential and so obvious in front of our eyes, even tribal people who are uncultured, uneducated, do believe in some kind of god and do know how to give thanks. Some believe in mother earth, god of this, and god of that, and they offer offerings to them. We, educated people, who think highly of ourselves as smart and knowledgeable people, through many of our deep thoughts, cannot tell there's at least a God? Why is it so easy for uneducated, uncultured, and poverish people to believe in God, than those in modern society? One of the main reasons is because they now live in a world where people have everything. They don't need God to give them materialistic things; they got doctors, they don't need God to heal them. This is how people become conceited, thinking that they can build happiness with their own hands and brain. But u got to think, who gave you those hands and brain? Was it your parents? Your ancestors? If yes then, where did your ancestors got theirs from? If you think I'm unreasonable, then you are more unreasonable, because I say with proof of the world's existence, including you in it. Can you deny your existence?

first, ask the Holy Spirit to speak through you-

second the individual will not recieve reason, until they ASK FOR IT. the problems most of us have with apologetics, is we go-off without request, (if that won't work for you, why would it work for a pagan-?)

after that, it should ALL take care of itself...