Dietary Laws & Sabbath Keeping

[nanasimmons]

For one we(gentiles) are not in the picture until Acts 9

two, the law in its right place is to bring true converts to Christ. Tey muct see that there is no way to be saved except Christ.

Look up the word fullfilled see what it says

[Guest yod]

Let me see if I understand the logic

As unbelievers, we can tell that the Law is God's standard and we should live up to it....but we can't.....so we need a Savior.

Yet when we become believers we can say "who gives a rip?" and do whatever we think is right?

I've had this discussion so many times that I could almost post your responses for you. This is a classic debate that gives me writers cramp.

First of all, parts of 2 book in the Torah are civil codes being given to a nation of people who had been slaves and needed to form a government. Those things don't necessarily "bind" us anymore but they do give insight into God's character and are therefore extremely valuable.

Secondly, as Shiloh has pointed out, there is no reason why grace and law can not exist in the same time & space. The Law would not be written on your heart if there is no longer a Law.

Thirdly, God's law never changed. The payment of the penalty was "fulfilled" but He hasn't changed His mind about what is right or wrong.

Every word that proceeds from the mouth of God is true, He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.

The usage of the word "fulfilled" in Matthew 5 is saying that He came to give the Law it's fullest meaning...it's proper meaning.

The universal morality laws (murder, adultry, lying, stealing) have not changed, have they?

Obviously something changed when the Messiah of Israel went international. The original faith community of Jerusalem could not impose on the nations a citizenship to Israel (covenant of circumcision) so they wisely decided that gentiles weren't bound to the same national and social teachings of the Torah.

That is not the same thing as saying that they themselves weren't though...so we shouldn't get the idea that the Torah was discarded either. It is still the foundation of anything we have been taught about God.

Without Torah there is no need for Yeshua because He pays the penalty it demands. Without Yeshua there is no need for torah because you are condemned anyway so who cares what God thinks?

Every jewish believer in the new covenant scriptures (99% of the people mentioned) was an observant jew and became MORESO after coming to faith in the Messiah of Israel.

[Guest shiloh357]

All of Hebrews but chapters 7 and 8 are a must read on this question

7: V.12 "For the preisthood being changed of necessity there is also a change of the law"

8:V.6 BUT now He has obtained a more excellent ministry,inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant,which was established on better promises. V.7"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no placewould have been sought for a second

V.13 In that he says" A new covenant" He has made the first obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away".

Paul is talking about a change in the Torah where the Priesthood is concerned. God did not do away with or abolish the Sacrificial system. Instead, He made it better by providing a better Sacrifice, better blood and a better High Priest.

The term "New Covenant" is first used in Jeremiah 31. "New Covenant" from Hebrew, is "brit hadashah," and it means "Renewed Covenant." God renewed His covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The operative term in Hebrew is "dashah (dah-shawh)." It does not mean "new" in the absolute sense. "Dashah" carries the connotation of improvement, expansion, renewal, refreshment. The "New Covenant" is a renewal.

The sacrifices of animals has been made obsolete due to the better sacrificial system that is now in place. This has nothing to do with the rest of the Torah. Paul is telling us that the Torah was modified where the Priesthood was concerned, to account for the coming of Messiah. This second covenant is an improved version of the Older Covenant.

I personally feel a lot of confusion would be avoided if we allowed the English to better reflect the Hebrew terminology.

[Guest shiloh357]

For one we(gentiles) are not in the picture until Acts 9

two, the law in its right place is to bring true converts to Christ. Tey muct see that there is no way to be saved except Christ.

Look up the word fullfilled see what it says

The word "fulfillment" as it is used by Yeshua in Matt. 5 means, "to bring to fullest expression." Yeshua set about to do just that. He says, think not I have come to abolish the Torah or the prophets..." Yet Christians turn around and say that He did exactly that. In Matt 5:11-12, "fulfill" and "abolish" are used as opposites. The grammar, even in English demands that we understand them as being opposite. What is the opposite of abolish?? Abolish means to destroy. Therefore "fulfill" as it is used here, means the opposite. It means to build up, to support.

[~SPIRITBLADE~]

For one we(gentiles) are not in the picture until Acts 9

two, the law in its right place is to bring true converts to Christ. Tey muct see that there is no way to be saved except Christ.

Look up the word fullfilled see what it says

The word "fulfillment" as it is used by Yeshua in Matt. 5 means, "to bring to fullest expression." Yeshua set about to do just that. He says, think not I have come to abolish the Torah or the prophets..." Yet Christians turn around and say that He did exactly that. In Matt 5:11-12, "fulfill" and "abolish" are used as opposites. The grammar, even in English demands that we understand them as being opposite. What is the opposite of abolish?? Abolish means to destroy. Therefore "fulfill" as it is used here, means the opposite. It means to build up, to support.

Yeshua fullfilled the 'curse' of the Law, the 'requirement' for sin.

the Law didn't go anywhere.

Yeshua didn't make the Law dead, rather the oppisite.

As an x-felon, i can assure you- that the Law itself isn't 'fullfilled', until the Judge's gavel sounds.

[Guest yod]

As an x-felon, i can assure you- that the Law itself isn't 'fullfilled', until the Judge's gavel sounds.

actually it isn't fulfilled until the penalty is paid.

Did you come to faith in the prison?

[~SPIRITBLADE~]

As an x-felon, i can assure you- that the Law itself isn't 'fullfilled', until the Judge's gavel sounds.

actually it isn't fulfilled until the penalty is paid.

Did you come to faith in the prison?

no, was blood-bought and born again for years BEFORE i went to prison, which is why i know ,(again from personal experience) that you can literally be 'born-again', and yet continue to commit sin, (in ignorance).

i was a (edited by moderator)-orphan, aside from attending school/working, i had to do 'second-story' work to provide for myself. trusting that all was taken from me in my youth, i BELIEVED my thieving was excused of the Lord.

God allowed that, because there were those in prison i needed to visit.

a 'Born-Again' prisoner, something that was ONCE uncommon, shall soon become the 'norm'

[nanasimmons]

That why We must be born agian...

Hebrews 9:16,17

A testament is a will and has no legal authority until after the death of the maker. The death of Christ was necessary for the astablishment of the "New Covenant"

Romans 4:13,14

For the promise that he (Abraham) would be the heir of the world was NOT to Abraham or to his seed through the LAW, BUT through the righteousness of FAITH. For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is made of no effect.

Galatians 3:18

For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer a promise, BUT God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Galatians 4:21-31 READ..

V.21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law???

[Guest yod]

Hebrews 9:16,17

A testament is a will and has no legal authority until after the death of the maker. The death of Christ was necessary for the astablishment of the "New Covenant"

a covenant and a testament are 2 different things.

If either party to a covenant is dead, the covenant is dead also.

Galatians 4:21-31 READ..

V.21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law???

I think you misunderstand.

No lawlessness will be tolerated in the Kingdom. We, who are of faith, establish the law.

[Smalcald]

But at heart this still begs the question, how are we to offer ourselves to Christ?

I think we all want to do what pleases God, if observing the true Saturday Sabbath, following the dietary restrictions and being circumcised are things which pleased God and are indeed part of the Law, why should we intentionally ignore them just because we are gentiles? Obviously none of these things save us nor can any of us fulfill any of these laws, Christ has done that. But He said those who love me will follow Me, will try to do what I have said, so if showing love for Christ means not eating shellfish or pork, I would be willing to do that. I have been taught all of my life that these things were totally lifted as a requirement of the law by Christ Himself and I can show you some passages, which support this. This is what I don't understand and is at the core of this discussion I think. They