mixing meat with dairy...and kosher food

[Guest shiloh357]

For this reason, Jews who can afford it, have three sets of dishes: Meat, dairy and pareve. They have two refrigerators, two stoves, two complete sets of cookware, etc. Many who follow this edict shop for dairy products on a different day than they shop for meat products. Those who cannot afford such large kitchens, often become vegitarian or only use fish as a source of meat since fish is not included in the prohibition against eating meat and dairy together.

Yep, some go to extreme lengths to keep rabbinic edicts. I would point out that this really applies more to the Orthodox and ultra Orthodox. The conservative and reform Jewish people do not as a rule, go to such lengths. Among the Reformed, they may only be kosher on holidays.

[hupo]

For this reason, Jews who can afford it, have three sets of dishes: Meat, dairy and pareve. They have two refrigerators, two stoves, two complete sets of cookware, etc. Many who follow this edict shop for dairy products on a different day than they shop for meat products. Those who cannot afford such large kitchens, often become vegitarian or only use fish as a source of meat since fish is not included in the prohibition against eating meat and dairy together.

Yep, some go to extreme lengths to keep rabbinic edicts. I would point out that this really applies more to the Orthodox and ultra Orthodox. The conservative and reform Jewish people do not as a rule, go to such lengths. Among the Reformed, they may only be kosher on holidays.

Believe it or not but the IDF has separate kitchens in all it's bases, by order!

I don't think i'm giving away any military secrets when I say there is the red kitchen and the blue kitchen.

Red is for the meat food, cutlery and utensils, while the blue is for the milk kitchen. At least they got the colors right

This shows you who is ruling behind the scenes in Israel

I used to get the blues when I went to these bases on reserve duty

Blessings and more blessings to all

[Guest Ger_Tzedek]

Vickilynn,

If the Lord sets you free you are free indeed, why do you think God wants you to keep that law ,do you never eat pizza?

Angels, grace doesn't mean lawlessness. Remember what Rav Shaul said (if I may paraphrase); Should I then sin that grace may abound? FAT CHANCE!

Even in terms of ritual law, it is there for our benefit -- always was, always will be. It's not as if HaShem ever needed us to ritually wash hands or refrain from ham or not kindle a flame on Shabbat. Those rules were gifts to us. As we draw nearer and nearer to the Holy One, blessed be he, our actions become more and more restricted, and we find greater greater freedom!!!!! We find in Him shalom.

It is the reverse, when we move away from G-d, that our behavior has fewer and fewer boundaries, and we enter into bondage, slavery to all sorts of sins and vices and addictions and compulsions... We find only living hell.

Remember that there is a distinction between what God asks of Israel, and what he asks of the Nations. In Acts 15, the apostles make it very clear that gentile believers are not required to become circumcised or to enter into the Mosaic covenant. They can eat ham all day long and golf on Shabbat and it is no sin, and there is nothing second class about them.

But as for Jewish believers, as Rav Shaul says, "the gifts and callings of God are IRREVOCABLE."

[Guest Ger_Tzedek]

For this reason, Jews who can afford it, have three sets of dishes: Meat, dairy and pareve. They have two refrigerators, two stoves, two complete sets of cookware, etc. Many who follow this edict shop for dairy products on a different day than they shop for meat products. Those who cannot afford such large kitchens, often become vegitarian or only use fish as a source of meat since fish is not included in the prohibition against eating meat and dairy together.

I've never heard of anyone having three sets. Maybe I've never known anyone that wealthy, lol. I have two sets. The white set is for dairy. The other is for meat. Very few meals are completely parve, but if they are, it doesn't matter which set I eat them on. We also split the burners on the stove -- right side is dairy, left burners are meat. Certain sections in the fridge are dairy, others are meat. I make sure the check out people at the store don't bag things together. Simple stuff once you get habitual.

What's harder is finding good kosher meat. My area has no kosher markets. There are a few brands that are hideous. I can get great kosher/organic chicken at Trader Joe's, but for beef I have to drive to the other side of the county to the Orthodox district. Same with cheese -- unlike most Messianics, I tend to the more Orthodox understanding of Rennet as a meat product.

You can find what the Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Council has to say on Kashrut (Kosher Halakhah) HERE:

http://www.ourrabbis.org/main/content/view/20/26/

Shalom

Edited August 13, 2007 by Ger_Tzedek

[Guest Ger_Tzedek]

Anyone, Jewish or Gentile is free to observe or not observe the dietary commandments. We can run into some serious problems when we start imposing these things on fellow believers. Those who don't observe these rules should respect the convictions of those who do, and vice-versa.

Shiloh, my bro:

It's none of my business what anyone eats. But G-d says its his business. The very first sin ever committed was what someone put in their mouth. If someone is a Jew, part of Israel, they are set apart forever, whether they are a believer or not. They are part of a unique covenant with HaShem. A gentile can sit down to pork chops and there is no problem, no sin. Acts 15 made it crystal clear that gentile believers did not need to become Jews and come under the Mosaic covenant. But for someone already a Jew... it's another story. So I'm certainly not going to knock on anyone's door to see what they are eating. But neither am I doing to come into a forum and tell Jews that it doesn't matter what they eat.

[Vickilynn]

Anyone, Jewish or Gentile is free to observe or not observe the dietary commandments. We can run into some serious problems when we start imposing these things on fellow believers. Those who don't observe these rules should respect the convictions of those who do, and vice-versa.

Shiloh, my bro:

It's none of my business what anyone eats. But G-d says its his business. The very first sin ever committed was what someone put in their mouth. If someone is a Jew, part of Israel, they are set apart forever, whether they are a believer or not. They are part of a unique covenant with HaShem. A gentile can sit down to pork chops and there is no problem, no sin. Acts 15 made it crystal clear that gentile believers did not need to become Jews and come under the Mosaic covenant. But for someone already a Jew... it's another story. So I'm certainly not going to knock on anyone's door to see what they are eating. But neither am I doing to come into a forum and tell Jews that it doesn't matter what they eat.

Shalom Ger,

The Bible does not say we are not to eat meat and dairy together.

You need to understand the difference between Biblical Kosher and Rabbinic Kosher. One is from G-d, one is from man. We do not follow the rabbis, we follow G-d. And thus we follow BIBLICAL Kosher, not rabbinic.

Here is an excellent article from a Messianic Jew on the subject:

http://www.seedofabraham.net/kosher.html

Kosher: Jewish vs. Biblical

by Avram Yehoshua

To abstain from all unclean animals (food), is Torah (the first five books of the Bible: Genesis through Deuteronomy). To 'keep kosher' the Jewish way, is both Torah and rabbinic. There is a big difference. God requires that we eat only clean meat (Torah: Lev. 11 and Deut. 14), and so do the Rabbis. But the Rabbis go further. Keeping kosher means that one doesn't eat any dairy products with meat. The Rabbis say that one cannot have cheese with clean meat, or even use a plate for meat, that once had cheese on it.

The separation of dairy and meat, with the rabbinic injunction that it's sin if one violates it, is based on the Scripture about not boiling a kid in its mother's milk. The rabbinic view is that one should not eat meat and dairy together thereby avoiding the possibility of breaking the Commandment.1 Of course, God never says in this Commandment that one can't eat meat and dairy together, but this is how the Rabbis have interpreted it.

This rabbinic rule came about through a perverse interpretation of Exodus 23:19 (the same verse being repeated in Ex. 34:26 and Deut. 14:21). The proper understanding of this verse deals with the ancient Egyptian and Canaanite idolatrous fertility rite.2 The liquid (milk), was sprinkled over the fields by the pagans, after the fall harvest, 'to ensure' a bountiful harvest from their god or goddess, for next year. Exodus 23:19 reads:

'The first of the first fruits of your Land you must bring into the House of Yahveh your God. You must not boil a kid in his mother's milk.'

From this last sentence the Rabbis have constructed a veritable Mt. Everest of rabbinical regulations relating to the separation of meat and dairy and also the separation of dishes, silverware, pots, pans; sinks for washing the dishes in, and even separate refrigerators for keeping dairy and meat products. One can not place meat on a dairy dish (or vice versa), or the dish (pot, pan, etc.), becomes contaminated.3 Interesting to realize is that none of these meat or dairy products are prohibited, or sin in and of themselves (for the meat eaten by religious Jews would be clean according to Lev. 11, and all dairy products are naturally clean), but to eat the two at the same meal is sin, according to the Rabbis. In this they sin against both Yahveh, and the Jewish people who follow their rabbinic, perverse practice.

The first two passages of the kid in it's mother milk comes right on the heels of the Feast of Tabernacles (Ex. 23:16; 34:22). The Feast of Tabernacles is the end time or autumn harvest feast of God. It comes in October. And in the third passage where the kid is mentioned, immediately after that is the Feast of Tabernacles (Deut. 14:22ff).

The Lord was declaring to His People Israel, that after the harvest season was over, when the pagan peoples around them would practice idolatry and witchcraft 'to insure a good harvest' for themselves for the next year, they were not to imitate the pagans. Israel was to trust Yahveh for next year's bountiful harvest.

We cannot find one Scripture where God commands that we abstain from eating dairy and meat together. Not one. The Rabbis have perverted the Scriptures when they declare that it is sin to eat meat and dairy together. A perversion that takes away from the Commandments of God by misinterpreting and falsifying them. The Rabbis have set up a false standard of sin. If a Jew eats cheese and meat together, they are sinning, according to the Rabbis. This rabbinic 'commandment' is confused with holiness. Many Jews think that they are good Jews, or holy, or worthy of Heaven, because they don't eat meat with dairy products. It is Man perverting the Word of God to his own destruction.

Biblically though, there is no problem with eating meat and dairy together. We see that the Lord Himself, and two angels did it, although the Rabbis try and get around this by saying that they waited 18 minutes after they ate the dairy, to eat the meat. (Eighteen minutes being only one school of rabbinic thought on how long one must wait after eating dairy, to eat meat. To eat dairy, after one has eaten meat, one must wait upwards of four to six hours. A great nutritional health practice for sure4 but hardly sin if one does not adhere to it.) There is another rabbinic school of thought that would make light of God and two angels eating meat and dairy together. They say that it was done before Torah was given on Mt. Sinai to Israel. But this too is a shallow reply to the Scriptures as nothing in all of Scripture shows us that eating meat and dairy together is sin.

The Scripture relates that Father Abraham gave Yahveh and His two angels (Gen. 18:22; 19:1), both dairy and meat to eat at the same time and that they ate it. In Genesis 18:8 we read:

'And he (Abraham) took butter (cream), and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them, and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.'

The Lord Himself5 and the two angels ate both the dairy and the meat at the same time. How can it be sin for us? The Rabbis have erred greatly, causing many millions of Jews to order their lives around this false standard. They have sinned against God and His Word by 'adding to' the Scriptures (Deut. 12:31).

'Whatever I command you, you must be careful to do. You must not add to, nor take away from it' (Deut. 12:32).

Of course, keeping kosher biblically should see the proper slaughter of the animal, with the subsequent draining of blood), as well as the prohibition not to eat any of the fat. Both the blood and the fat, as nutritionist point out to us, carry and are repositories for, toxins (poisons), respectively. That's why Yahveh commands us not to eat either of them:

'It is a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwellings: you must not eat any fat or any blood' (Lev. 3:17; see also, Lev. 7:23, 26; 19:26; Deut. 15:23, etc.).

For those of you who are Jewish, you might remember your grandmother's chicken schmultz (fat from the chicken that was used to cook meat and other things in, instead of using butter). How this was able to find a home in Judaism is beyond me.

From the Scriptures themselves, we have proven that it isn't a sin to eat dairy and meat together, if one so chooses. From ancient archeological findings (#2 in the notes section), boiling a kid in its mother's milk was a pagan fertility practice that Yahveh didn't want His people Israel to copy, not a dietary regulation. No Scripture tells us not to eat meat with dairy. None. But the Rabbis, not realizing the proper interpretation of boiling a kid in its mother's milk, set out and have built an incredible labyrinth of rules concerning the prohibition against eating meat and dairy together (different dishes, etc.). And now, it is considered sin in Judaism if one eats meat and dairy at the same table. And the ironic thing about all this is that neither the dairy, nor the meat that a Jew would eat, are 'unclean', or sin.

Also, from Genesis, we see that Yahveh and two of His angels ate meat and dairy at the same meal. If this was true for them, and it is, how can it be sin for us?

Endnotes

1. Of course, the possibility exists that you can eat the kid and the milk at different times. Carrying this to all meat and dairy possibilities (when the Scripture only speaks of the kid), chickens which do not give milk, still cannot be eaten together with dairy products. No where in the Scripture does it ever mention the eating of milk and meat together. This is a perverse understanding by the Rabbis.

2. Rev. James M. Freeman, Manners and Customs of the Bible (Plainfield, NJ: Logos International, 1972; originally written about 1874), p. 73, number 133, says this 'injunction is put in connection with sacrifices and festivals,' the seething of a kid in his mother's milk was an 'idolatrous practice' done, 'for the purpose of making trees and fields more fruitful the following year.' This is seen, 'on the authority of an ancient Karaite comment on the Pentateuch', 'the trees, fields, gardens and orchards' would be sprinkled with that milk.' Charles F. Pfeiffer, Old Testament, Everett F. Harrison, New Testament, The Wycliffe Bible Commentary (Chicago: Moody Press, 1977), p. 73, states that, in 'the Ugarit literature discovered in 1930, it was learned that boiling a kid in its mother's milk was a Canaanite practice used in connection with fertility rites (Birth of the Gods, 1:14).' R. L. Harris, Editor; Gleason Archer, Jr. and Bruce Waltke, Associate Editors, Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, vol. 1 (Chicago: Moody Press, 1980), p. 285, also tells us that, 'Since a Ugaritic text (UT 16: Text no. 52:14) specifies, 'They cook a kid in milk', 'the biblical injunction may have been directed against a Canaanite fertility rite.'

3. The exception to this rule is if the dish is glass. Glass being non porous, the Rabbis allow for this as long as it has been thoroughly washed. But this exception is not followed in practice.

4. Nutritional science tells us that the eating of dairy and meat products together can retard digestion.

5. From the following Scripture we can see that it was actually God (and two angels), that Abraham fed the dairy and the meat to. Gen. 18:10: 'He said, 'I will surely return to you at this time next year and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son.' 'And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him.' Gen. 18:13-15: 'And Yahveh said to Abraham, 'Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?' 'Is anything too difficult for Yahveh? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.' 'Sarah denied it however, saying, 'I did not laugh' for she was afraid.' 'And He said, 'No, but you did laugh.' Gen. 18:17-20: 'Yahveh said, 'Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of Yahveh by doing righteousness and justice, so that Yahveh may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him. And Yahveh said, 'The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.' Gen. 18:22: 'Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before Yahveh. Abraham came near and said, 'Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?' Gen. 18:26: 'So Yahveh said, 'If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.' It was Yahveh, the God of Israel, who ate the meal that Father Abraham gave Him and the angels.

[hupo]

The Bible does not say we are not to eat meat and dairy together.

You need to understand the difference between Biblical Kosher and Rabbinic Kosher. One is from G-d, one is from man. We do not follow the rabbis, we follow G-d. And thus we follow BIBLICAL Kosher, not rabbinic.

Hi Vickilynn,

Finally caught up with you

Thank you for this post. We have been a long time in need of this. It's quite incredible how far one can err in interpreting scripture.

The whole of Israel lives under these laws.

I have no issue with anyone who wants to keep meat and milk separated but to say it's a sin not to do so is NOT what God told us.

Blessings

[Guest Savednotperfect]

I have often thought that the verse about not boiling a kid in its mother's milk was also related to these concepts:

Lev 22:26 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Lev 22:27 When a bullock, or a sheep, or a goat, is brought forth, then it shall be seven days under the dam; and from the eighth day and thenceforth it shall be accepted for an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

Lev 22:28 And whether it be cow or ewe,

ye shall not kill it and her young both in one day

.

Deu 22:6 If a bird's nest chance to be before thee in the way in any tree, or on the ground, whether they be young ones, or eggs, and the dam sitting upon the young, or upon the eggs,

thou shalt not take the dam with the young

:

Deu 22:7 But thou shalt in any wise let the dam go, and take the young to thee; that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days.

Pro 12:10

A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast

: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.

In other words, the idea is to avoid cruelity even to one's animals. The animal might not have any idea what's going on, but to slaughter a mother animal's baby and then have her provide the milk to cook it in - isn't that rather heartless?

Not that I'm an expert, but I did read a post on a Jewish "Jerusalem Post" type site that mentioned something about the "Butchering/life ending" aspect of meat not being combined with the "Nurturing/life giving" aspect of mothers milk, i.e., milk and other non-meat dairy products.

Coincidentally, from a scientific aspect, it makes sense too. The digestive enzymes we need to properly digest meat are greatly reduced by dairy products and therefore the two should be consumed separately at separate times.

Even though we gentiles are not condemned for eating "unclean" food, we would still do well to follow the dietary guidelines in listed in the chapters of Leviticus.

Someone has written a great cookbook/mealplan guide based on the rules laid down in Leviticus. Can't remember the name of the book at the moment!

[Vickilynn]

The Bible does not say we are not to eat meat and dairy together.

You need to understand the difference between Biblical Kosher and Rabbinic Kosher. One is from G-d, one is from man. We do not follow the rabbis, we follow G-d. And thus we follow BIBLICAL Kosher, not rabbinic.

Hi Vickilynn,

Finally caught up with you

Thank you for this post. We have been a long time in need of this. It's quite incredible how far one can err in interpreting scripture.

The whole of Israel lives under these laws.

I have no issue with anyone who wants to keep meat and milk separated but to say it's a sin not to do so is NOT what God told us.

Blessings

Shalom Hupo!!

Hey Brother!! I owe you an email. I'm off to write it right now since you're online. I'm excited about #10 and #11. WOWEEEE!

I have no issue with anyone who wants to keep meat and milk separated but to say it's a sin not to do so is NOT what God told us.

Amen, amen and amen!!!

When we were in Israel, that's how we ate. And it's fine, by choice. But, it is not SIN not to eat that way. Amen!!!

[hupo]

Hey Brother!! I owe you an email. I'm off to write it right now since you're online. I'm excited about #10 and #11. WOWEEEE!

When we were in Israel, that's how we ate. And it's fine, by choice. But, it is not SIN not to eat that way. Amen!!!

Hi Vickilynn,

I'm off to a kibbutz party but i'll get back to this later

Blessings