Is John still alive?

[rollinTHUNDER]

Well Sterling,

I guess this is just about the end of the line for us. As I said before, some things can only be spiritually discerned. It appears that you are struggling to take the word of God seriously. I'm not sure if you have received salvation or not, but if not, then you don't have the Holy Spirit living inside you to help guide you into the knowledge of the deeper spiritual things that the natural mind sees only as foolishness.

I've made an honest attempt to help you understand, but unfortunately I don't have the time to go round and round with you on this, nor do I feel like I have to prove my case. To me it's no big deal if you don't understand these things the way I do. Some will understand and some will not, and that's okay with me.

I do, however, believe that John is still alive, though he no longer walks on the earth. We were made in God's image. And just as God is a triune being (3 in 1), so is man made in three parts (body, soul & spirit). Animals aren't made up like we are, they don't have spirits, and they may not (?) even have souls.

John's body died and returned to the dust, Jesus referred to this as sleeping. But his soul and spirit are still very much alive in the presence of the Lord. When Jesus returns in the rapture, all of the bodies that are dead in Christ will be raised to meet Him in the air, and in an instant their bodies will be changed from mortal to immortal or eternal if you will.

There is no death for those who have received eternal life, so anyone who has ever died in Christ has really never tasted death. They have simply gone from life to life everlasting, while those who died without Christ will sleep in the dust, then be raised 1000 years later to face the judgment at the Great White Throne.

That's basically the way I understand it. So you can take it or leave it, but I'm not going to argue the matter. God bless you in your studies.

[Nero's Fiddle]

I believe that there is evidence that the Angel that gave John the message of Revelations was in fact Paul and not an Angel from Heaven.

John, in the course of the narrative, speaks of seeing things personally: a vision.

Revelation 1:2

Who bare record... of all things that he (John) saw.

Revelation 1:9,10

I John...heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet..."

Unless you are saying that Paul was capable of actually allowing John to see these things, I do not see how this being a vision of Paul's recounted to John is even possible, given the constant use throughout of the personal pronoun, and John's clear statement that he was seeing these things.

Moreover, according to the Bible, Paul was accepted almost immediately by the church at Jerusalem, after Barnabas had spoken for him. He was loved, prayed for much, given support, and greatly respected by the believers to whom he wrote his epistles, and, it can be inferred, others as well. Many churches were populated by people he won to the Lord!

While there may have been bad feelings about his persecutions at first, Revelation was written after decades of his faithful service and being persecuted for the Lord... why would he lie about his authorship when he clearly identified himself in the epistles?

Edited June 7, 2006 by Nero's Fiddle

[Anika]

Sterling, are you a partial-preterist?

[George]

I think part of the problem is the teaching that the disciples "EXPECTED" the Lord's return in their lifetime. But this isn't what was taught WAY BACK THEN! Quite frankly, it was quite the contrary when you read through what the Church Fathers wrote. Granted, this is NOT SCRIPTURE and nor does it even compare to Scripture -- but it does give us an understanding of what they believed and what they taught.

For example, Barnabas, the companion of Paul wrote this --

Barnabas 15:2-5

And in another place He saith; If my sons observe the Sabbath then I will bestow My mercy upon them. Of the Sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; And God made the works of His hands in six days, and He ended on the seventh day, and rested on it, and He hallowed it. Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years; and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end. And He rested on the seventh day. this He meaneth; when His Son shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the stars, then shall he truly rest on the seventh day.

Source -- Epistle of Barnabas - Early Christian Writings

Barnabas expected the return of the Lord after 6000 years. When the Lord was crucified it was approximately 4000 years of the earth's existance and thus we are in the final stages of the 6000 year cycle that they taught in the early church.

I believe this is the problem -- trying to use "today's theology" to discern what they believed way back then! The reason I used the Epistle of Barnabas as an example is because it was often quoted by the Church Fathers and was widely used throughout the early church.

I hope this clears the air a little bit,

God bless,

George

[George]

This is what Origin (one of the Church Father's in a commentary of Matthew written approximately 200 AD) wrote concerning not tasting of death --

"Verily I say unto you there be some of them that stand here that shall not taste of death." Some refer these things to the going up--six days after, or, as Luke says, eight days--of the three disciples into the high mountain with Jesus apart; and those who adopt this interpretation say that Peter and the remaining two did not taste of death before they saw the Son of man coining in His own kingdom and in His own glory. For when they saw Jesus transfigured before them so that "His face shone," etc., "they saw the kingdom of God coming with power." For even as some spear-bearers stand around a king, so Moses and Elijah appeared to those who had gone up into the mountains, talking with Jesus. But it is worth while considering whether the sitting on the right hand and on the left band of the Saviour in His kingdom refers to them, so that the words, "But for whom it is prepared," were spoken because of them. Now this interpretation about the three Apostles not tasting of death until they have seen Jesus transfigured, is adapted to those who are designated by Peter as "new-born babes longing for the reasonable milk which is without guile," to whom Paul says, "I have fed you with milk, not with meat," etc. Now, too, every interpretation of a text which is able to build up those who cannot receive greater truths might reasonably be called milk, flowing from the holy ground of the Scriptures, which flows with milk and honey. But he who has been weaned, like Isaac, worthy of the good cheer and reception which Abraham gave at the weaning of his son, would seek here and in every Scripture food which is different, I think, from that which is meat, indeed, but is not solid food, and from what are figuratively called herbs, which are food to one who has been weaned and is not yet strong but weak, according to the saying, "He that is weak eateth herbs." In like manner also he who has been weaned, like Samuel, and dedicated by his mother to God, --she was Hannah, which is, by interpretation, grace,-would be also a son of grace, seeking, like one nurtured in the temple, flesh of God, the holy food of those who are at once perfect and priests.

The reflections in regard to the passage before us that occur to us at the present time are these: Some were standing where Jesus was, having the footsteps of the soul firmly planted with Jesus, and the standing of their feet was akin to the standing of which Moses said in the passage, "And I stood on the mountain forty days and forty nights," who was deemed worthy to have it said to him by God who asked him to stand by Him, "But stand thou here with Me." Those who really stand by Jesus--that is, by the Word of God--do not all stand equally; for among those who stand by Jesus are differences from each other. Wherefore, not all who stand by the Saviour, but some of them as standing better, do not taste of death until they shall have seen the Word who dwelt with men, and on that account called Son of man, coming in His own kingdom; for Jesus does not always come in His own kingdom when He comes, since to the newly initiated He is such that they might say, beholding the Word Himself not glorious nor great, but inferior to many among them, "We saw Him, and He had no form or beauty, but His form was dishonoured, defective compared with all the sons of men." And these things will be said by those who beheld His glory in connection with their own former times, when at first the Word as understood in the synagogue had no form nor beauty to them. To the Word, therefore, who has assumed most manifestly the power above all words. there belongs a royal dignity which is visible to some of those who stand by Jesus, when they have been able to follow Him as He goes before them and ascends to the lofty mountain of His own manifestation. And of this honour some of those who stand by Jesus are deemed worthy if they be either a Peter against whom the gates of Hades do not prevail, or the sons of thunder, and are begotten of the mighty voice of God who thunders and cries aloud from heaven great things to those who have ears and are wise. Such at least do not taste death.

INTERPRETATION OF "TASTING OF DEATH."

But we must seek to understand what is meant by "tasting of death." And He is life who says, "I am the life," and this life assuredly has been hidden with Christ in God; and. "when Christ our life shall be manifested, then along with Him" shall be manifested those who are worthy of being manifested with Him in glory. But the enemy of this life, who is also the last enemy of all His enemies that shall be destroyed, is death, of which the soul that sinneth dies, having the opposite disposition to that which takes place in the soul that lives uprightly, and in consequence of living uprightly lives. And when it is said in the law, "I have placed life before thy face," the Scripture says this about Him who said, "I am the Life," and about His enemy, death; the one or other of which each of us by his deeds is always choosing.

And when we sin with life before our face, the curse is fulfilled against us which says, "And thy life shall be hanging up before thee," etc., down to the words, "and for the sights of thine eyes which thou shall see." As, therefore, the Life is also the living bread which came down from heaven and gave life to the world, so His enemy death is dead bread. Now every rational soul is fed either on living bread or dead bread, by the opinions good or bad which it receives. As then in the case of more common foods it is the practice at one time only to taste them, and at another to eat of them more largely; so also, in the case of these loaves, one eats insufficiently only tasting them, but another is satiated,--he that is good or is on the way to being good with the living bread which came down from heaven, but he that is wicked with the dead bread, which is death; and some perhaps sparingly, and sinning a little, only taste of death; but those who have attained to virtue do not even taste of it, but are always fed on the living bread. It naturally followed then in the case of Peter, against whom the gates of Hades will not prevail, that he did not taste of death, since any one tastes of death and eats death at the time when the gates of Hades prevail against him; and one eats or tastes of death in proportion as the gates of Hades to a greater or less extent, more or fewer in number, prevail against him. But also for the sons of thunder who were begotten of thunder, which is a heavenly thing, it was impossible to taste of death, which is extremely far removed from thunder, their mother. But these things the Word prophesies to those who shall be perfected, and who by standing with the Word advanced so far that they did not taste of death, until they saw the manifestation and the glory and the kingdom and the excellency of the Word of God in virtue of which He excels every word, which by an appearance of truth draws away and drags about those who are not able to break through the bonds of distraction, and go up to the height of the excellency of the Word of truth.

MEANING OF "UNTIL." NO LIMITATION OF PROMISE.

But since some one may think that the promise of the Saviour prescribes a limit of time to their not tasting of death, namely, that they will not taste of death "until" they see the Son of man coming in His own kingdom. but after this will taste of it, let us show that according to the scriptural usage the word "until" signifies that the time concerning the thing signified is pressing, but is not so defined that after the "until," that which is contrary to the thing signified should at all take place. Now, the Saviour says to the eleven disciples when He rose from the dead, this among other things, "Lo, I am with you all the days, even until the consummation of the age." When He said this, did He promise that He was going to be with them until the consummation of the age, but that after the consummation of the age, when another age was at hand, which is "called the age to come," He would be no longer with them?--so that according to this, the condition of the disciples would be better before the consummation of the age than after the consummation of the age? But I do not think that any one will dare to say, that after the consummation of the age the Son of God will be no longer with the disciples, because the expression declares that He will be with them for so long, until the consummation of the age is at hand; for it is clear that the matter under inquiry was, whether the Son of God was forthwith going to be with His disciples before the age to come and the hoped for promises of God which were given as a recompense. But there might have been a question--it being granted that He would be with them--whether sometimes He was present with them, and sometimes not present. Wherefore setting us free from the suspicion that might have arisen from doubt, He declared that now and even all the days He would be with the disciples, and that He would not leave those who had become His disciples until the consummation of the age; (because He said "all the days" He did not deny that by night, when the sun set, He would be present with them.) But if such is the force of the words, "until the consummation of the age," plainly we shall not be compelled to admit that those who see the Son of man coming in His own kingdom shall taste of death, after being deemed worthy of beholding Him in such guise. But as in the case of the passage we brought forward, the urgent necessity was to teach us that "until the consummation of the age" He would not leave us but be with us all the days; so also in this case I think that it is clear to those who know how to look at the logical coherence of things that He who has seen once for all "the Son of man coming in His own kingdom," and seen Him "in His own glory," and seen "the kingdom of God come with power," could not possibly taste of death after the contemplation of things so good and great. But apart from the word of the promise of Jesus, we have conjectured not without reason that we would taste of death, so long as we were not yet held worthy to see "the kingdom of God come with power," and "the Son of man coming in His own glory and in His own kingdom."

SCRIPTURAL REFERENCES TO DEATH.

But since here it is written in the three Evangelists, "They shall not taste of death," but in other writers different things are written concerning death, it may not be out of place to bring forward and examine these passages along with the "taste." In the Psalms, then, it is said, "What man is he that shall live and not see death?" And again, in another place, "Let death come upon them and let them go down into Hades alive;" but in one of the prophets, "Death becoming mighty has swallowed them up;" and in the Apocalypse, "Death and Hades follow some." Now in these passages it appears to me that it is one thing to taste of death, but another thing to see death, and another thing for it to come upon some, and that a fourth thing, different from the aforesaid, is signified by the words, "Death becoming mighty has swallowed them up," and a fifth thing, different from these, by the words, Death and Hades follow them." And if yon were to collect them, you would perhaps find also other differences than those which we have mentioned, by a comparison of which with one another and right investigation, you would find the things signified in each place. But here I inquire whether it is a less evil to see death, but a greater evil than seeing to taste of it, but still worse than this that death should follow any one, and not only follow him, but also now come upon him and seize him whom it formerly followed; but to be swallowed up seems to be more grievous than all the things spoken of. But giving heed to what is said, and to the differences of sins committed, you will not I think, be slow to admit that things of this kind were intended by the Spirit who caused these things to be written in the oracles of God. But, if it be necessary to give an exposition clearer than what has been said of what is signified by seeing the Son of man coming in His own kingdom, or in His own glory, and what is signified by seeing the kingdom of God come with power, these things--whether those that are made to shine in our hearts, or that are found by those who seek, or that enter gradually into our thoughts.--let each one judge as he wills--we will set forth. He who beholds and apprehends the excellency of the Word, as tie breaks down and refutes all the plausible forms of things which are truly lies but profess to be truths, sees the Son of man, (according to the word of John, "the Word of God,") coming in His own kingdom; but if such an one were to behold the Word, not only breaking down plausible oppositions, but also representing His own truths with perfect clearness, he would behold His glory in addition to His kingdom.

And such an one indeed would see in Him the kingdom of God come with power; and he would see this, as one who is no longer now under the reign of "sin which reigns in the mortal body of those who sin," but is ever under the orders of the king, who is God of all, whose kingdom is indeed potentially "within us," but actually, and, as Mark has called it, "with power," and not at all in weakness within the perfect alone. These things, then, Jesus promised to the disciples who were standing, prophesying not about all of them, but about some.