Made in The Image of God

[Dad Ernie]

Adam was NEVER made PERFECT. Being a man, he needed Christ just as much as we do today.

No he didn't. What you're preaching is nothing more than heresy. It is what the 1st Century Church fathers called heresy, and so I call it what it is. YOu are saying that God created man with an inherent need for a savoir...this means God created man in sin, thus God created sin and forced man into it. This means that God, by definition, is sinful because He forced man to sin. Adam did not need Christ prior to the fall. In fact, Adam only needed Christ AFTER the fall. It makes no sense why God would create man in sin...in fact...it's an imposibility.

You are assuming things I said which are not in evidence. As I have written, All creation was subjected to "vanity", perhaps another better word is "frailty". Angels are perpetual, they do not die, thus the Lake of Fire was created for the "fallen ones" into which those who reject Christ will also be thrown. God DID NOT CREATE SIN, but gave two things to Adam in regards to "eternal life". One was the Tree of Life. As long as he partook of it, he lived:

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

If Adam had been allowed to stay in the Garden, he most surely would have continued to eat of the Tree of Life - yet with sin. God could not allow that. For sin MUST be put away from us if we are to be RECONCILED WITH GOD.

Second, God gave Adam the ability to choose, as well as he does us:

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

This is a common theme through the entire Bible, from Adam's first choice between the good tree and the bad tree, to the choice of living for Christ or pay the just penalty for rejecting Him. You appear to be in a group I have encountered before who believe that there is more than one way to receive salvation. If Christ is NOT the ONLY WAY, but Adam could have remained obedient for his 930 years or longer, then it is you my friend who are preaching "another Gospel".

Was Adam's name written in the Lamb's Book of Life? Scripture doesn't say, but if he were to have gotten into heaven - THEN he needed Christ. What is it that Christ overcame? DEATH!

And what you're asserting is that God caused this death and it was inherent within man. Are you so blind you can't see that?

The frailty of man, as I have pointed out, which includes Adam is that to attain "eternal life", one needs a source outside himself to achieve it. Did not God say:

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Had death been mentioned before this? Who could have caused it? Who could have prevented it? Only the Tree of Life could provide Adam "eternal life" - in the physical and by eathing of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam made the choice of NOT CHOOSING TO OBEY GOD. Did God create Adam NOT TO CHOOSE? If so, then Adam would have been a ROBOT, doing nothing more than carrying out the Father's every wish, with NEVER A THOUGHT to disobeying Him. Now we have Jesus who faced a horrible future and this is what HE did:

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

I see Adam's CHOICE and Jesus's CHOICE as corrollary, in that Adam, "of the flesh", chose disobedience, while Jesus, "of the spirit", chose to do God's will. Adam even compounded his sin by saying:

Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

So we can actually see several "sins" that Adam committed:

1) He listened to his wife instead of God.

2) He ate of the poisoned tree, knowing full well what God had commanded.

3) After eating of the tree, his eyes were opened and SAW that he was naked, but decided to COVER HIMSELF, and hide.

4) Then he blamed Eve for "tempting" him. Temptation is NOT THE SIN - it is the ACT that is the SIN.

5) And lastly, he made no personal confession even though he was certainly aware that God knew his every thought.

So where did Adam acquire all these "devious acts" or "acts of unrighteousness"? You are trying to tell me that Adam didn't need Jesus, even before the fall. Well, I know that in myself, there is nothing good, and I have been a Christian for a good many years now. The "saving grace" in which I live, is by and through Christ, as He ministers daily to me through the Holy Spirit. Through Adam I was separated from that Tree of Life and thus, as with all flesh, I die. In the spirit, even as Paul, I must die daily to the things of this world, so that my life can be found in the only ONE that can provide "eternal life". If we are to see Adam in Heaven, it will be because of Christ and the payment He provided for Adam's sin. I believe we SHALL SEE ADAM there because we know that Jesus went and preached to those in prison UNTIL THE ADVENT OF CHRIST and HIS RESURRECTION.

Please refer back to the original scripture I gave. God subjected ALL creation to VANITY, IN HOPE....

This is absurd. Go back to school and take a reading comprehension class. This is what I posted:

Secondly, "very good" is more of a mistranslation or an inadequacy in the translation. The Hebrew here, tov meod, does mean "perfect." It means God used force to bring about something that was "acceptable." Is anything less than perfection acceptable to God? Are you seriously going to assert that God has a standard that falls short of perfection? This is why tov meod comes with the implication that "very good" means perfect. It means "created to a state of agreeable pleasentry" and appeals to the physical, ethical, and spiritual status of creation. To say that creation was not perfect is saying, "God created something and had standards less than perfection." There is no getting out of that.

That's infallible no matter how you want to look at it. That is simply how the Hebrew is written out, and to say it's wrong is to speak in ignorance.

The most "idyllic" part of God's creation was the Garden of Eden. Do you believe that it was a better area than "east of Eden":

Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

This is how God describes that locale:

Genesis 3:17-18 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Did "east of Eden" have a "curse" upon it prior to Adam's fall or after? Knowing that ALL CREATION WAS CREATED SUBJECT TO VANITY, my vote is that outside of the Garden, life was scarce to none and Adam had to work at it if he were to see ANY LIFE produced, and this only by God's grace.

Well, I have tried to explain these things to you and Tess as well as the scriptures reveal. To say that man has some "intrinsic" value, in my opinion, is alien to the scriptures. Adam, before the fall, and all mankind after the fall need the intercession of Christ for "eternal life". Adam proved that man IS NOT GOD. Man is "frail", subjected to "vanity" as God has said "in hope". The choice IS YOURS. If you think YOU have some redeemable quality in you, other than Christ, for your "redemption and restoration" to the good graces of God, then I am afraid for your very soul.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Kabowd]

Ernie, you're not only throwing out strawmen now, you're just repeating the same thing over and over. I don't have alot of time because I have to get ready for school. But here's a few things I have time to address:

You are assuming things I said which are not in evidence. As I have written, All creation was subjected to "vanity", perhaps another better word is "frailty".

And if you had read AK's post, he thoroughly explained that your interpretation of "vanity" is wrong. Here it is again, since I think you missed it:

AK: "Paul is refering to God subjecting creation to frustration (that is the actual translation of the Greek word). Notice the context; Paul is speaking solely of the fall. In other words, Paul is not saying that God subjected it to frustration from creation but instead this occured after the fall. Due to sin, God subjected all of creation to frustration in hope that the redemption (restoration) would soon occur. It has nothing to do with original creation and everything to do with creation post-fall."

You appear to be in a group I have encountered before who believe that there is more than one way to receive salvation. If Christ is NOT the ONLY WAY, but Adam could have remained obedient for his 930 years or longer, then it is you my friend who are preaching "another Gospel".

This is the most blatant strawman I have ever seen. Are you kidding? Show me ANYWHERE, any quote, where AK or myself have advocated that there is any other way to God except Christ? The fact is, you have no way of reconciling the consequences of your belief, therefore all you can do is create strawmen and twist what we are saying so that you can "refute" it. AK is correct, you are teaching heresy. To say that God created man in an already fallen state is outright heresy and should not be taught on this board (or anywhere else).

The rest of your post is just re-stating the same things over and over. You ignore Hebrew, you ignore Greek, you ignore basic Christian theology. Let's just re-cap a few things that you've yet to resolve for us. Some of the points were brought forth by me, others by AK. But the fact is, you completely ignore the questions because you cannot reconcile them with your heretical beliefs. Please respond to these questions before continuing any further:

1. "very good" is more of a mistranslation or an inadequacy in the translation. The Hebrew here, tov meod, does mean "perfect." It means God used force to bring about something that was "acceptable." Is anything less than perfection acceptable to God?

2. You have taken total depravity to a very tragic extreme. Even John Calvin (or any of the Reformers that I know of) did not take it to the extreme you have. Sin defaces the image of God but it does not destroy it. If sin destroys God's image entirely, we would not be here. We would lose our ability to create, reason, have a conscience, etc. We would lose our distinction between us and animals. What do you say to 1 Corinthians 11:7 where Paul explicitly states that man is still made in God's image??

3. If man is no longer created in the image of God, we lose our value altogether, therefore we lose the only reason that murder, abortion or any of those things are inherently wrong. Again, this goes back to Genesis 9:6, which you've ignored. Remember, this command not to murder came after the fall and gives the reason it is wrong as being that we are created in God's image.

4. What is your interpretation of Genesis 9:6, 1 Timothy 4, James 3:9 and 1 Corinthians 11:7?

5. To be reconciled, in the Biblical since, is to be brought back to something. My question is, if man was never perfect, if man has always been sinful, if man has always been in rebellion, then how can we be "brought back" if we have never belonged? Consequently, if we are not being restored to the complete image of God, what are we being reconciled (brought back) to?

6. It is true that God is the originator of perfection. However, if He is the only one who can be perfect this means that even when we are in Heaven and on the New Earth we will still be sinning. If, however, God can be perfect and those whom He chooses can be perfect, then it is quite possible that Adam was perfect. In fact, it is impossible for Adam to have been anything but perfect...you are asserting that God created an imperfection...this is a point you completely drop and ignore in your post.

7. If we were created for glory then:

* Why are we the only ones in His image?

* Why are we the only ones with a super intellect?

* Why are we the only ones with culture?

* Why are we the only ones He came to die for?

* Why are we the only ones that were given culture?

* Why did He create other things?

* Why did He make us unique?

Until you can address those issues, your further posts will be meaningless. You're skirting around the heart of the issue, chasing rabbits and totally ignore the consequences of your beliefs. At this point I'm going to quote one of my favorite authors, Francis Schaeffer, and his thoughts on imago dei:

..it is not only a Christian who can paint beauty or who has creative stirrings in the area of science. These creative stirrings are rooted in the fact that people are made in the image of God, the great Creator, whether or not an individual knows or acknowledges it, and even though the image of God in people is now contorted. This creativeness - whether in art, science, or engineering - is a part of the unique mannishness of man as made in the image of God. Man, in contrast to non-man, is creative. - Francis Schaeffer from "How Should We Then Live?"

Like I said, even the early Reformers did not take total depravity to the extreme you have. In fact, much of the purpose of the Reformation was to restore man to his original purpose. The RCC in particular had adapted some gnostic beliefs which regarded certain things (vocations) as more intrinsicly valuable than others. This is where monks, monasteries, priests, nuns, convents....all of those things flowed from the idea that "spiritual" pursuits were more important and valuable than other vocations. What the Reformer's brought was the truth of the Scriptures, namely that because man is made in the image of God, this gives all vocations quality and dignity to human life. The "priesthood of the believer" is a very strong and clear communication of this idea.

[apothanein kerdos]

Tess handled everything I was going to say, so I'll wait for your reply.

[kittylover0991]

Hey ya'll,

I am becoming very confused with everyone throwing around various philosophies/theology(difference?).

First things first... stop with the putdowns... ya'll are getting onto each other and tearing each other down then just sticking to the topic of this thread. Calling someone any form of a name that may be offensive is not going to "convince" but rather, force them to put up a wall of defense... stop it...

Ok... so the "image of God" is perfection? This is the conclusion I have come to at this point... still waiting on a more clear answer from God though... Adam and ever were created perfect.. right .. without sin... as Ernie had said...

It makes since that we are no longer.. if "image" stands for perfection... in the image of God when born.. but then reconciled when we accept Christ into our lives. that makes sense... however, we sin... do we constantly take hold of and lose his image.. my mind is spinning that one is circles...

When we get to heaven.... we will be given new bodies.... I guess we will then, for sure, be in his image. As for right now... to "be in his image".. does entail perfection?

Please stop the putdowns.. I mean this as a general statement...

Crystal

[Dad Ernie]

And if you had read AK's post, he thoroughly explained that your interpretation of "vanity" is wrong. Here it is again, since I think you missed it:

AK: "Paul is refering to God subjecting creation to frustration (that is the actual translation of the Greek word). Notice the context; Paul is speaking solely of the fall. In other words, Paul is not saying that God subjected it to frustration from creation but instead this occured after the fall. Due to sin, God subjected all of creation to frustration in hope that the redemption (restoration) would soon occur. It has nothing to do with original creation and everything to do with creation post-fall."

G2937

κτίσις

ktisis

ktis'-is

From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.

G2936

κτίζω

ktizō

ktid'-zo

Probably akin to G2932 (through the idea of the proprietorship of the manufacturer); to fabricate, that is, found (form originally): - create, Creator, make.

What you and AK propose is that a "perfect world" was created by God and that after Adam sinned, God modified His creation to accommodate the new paradigm of sin to which Adam succumbed. My Bible says that on the 7th day God rested from all the works His hands had made. Does that mean anything to you? Of course not, without a major paradigm shift of your own. Once God finished His creation, He looked over all that He had created and said it was "very good" - and again I add - for the purpose for which He created them. Now did God NOT KNOW of the sin that Adam would commit? You seem to think so. Yet the Lamb's Book of Life was written from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, which you seem to overlook and never respond to. In another part of the Forum another poster suggested that God had Plan A, which was to Adam and all his progeny to live in a "perfect world", but when Plan A fell apart, God had a backup Plan B, in which He sent Christ to REDEEM the human race back to Himself, yet, scripture tells us that Christ was "slain from the foundation of the world". So, no there was NO PLAN A, God has always had ONE plan, for Adam and ALL his progeny and that is "salvation and redemption by Christ alone".

You appear to be in a group I have encountered before who believe that there is more than one way to receive salvation. If Christ is NOT the ONLY WAY, but Adam could have remained obedient for his 930 years or longer, then it is you my friend who are preaching "another Gospel".

This is the most blatant strawman I have ever seen. Are you kidding? Show me ANYWHERE, any quote, where AK or myself have advocated that there is any other way to God except Christ? The fact is, you have no way of reconciling the consequences of your belief, therefore all you can do is create strawmen and twist what we are saying so that you can "refute" it. AK is correct, you are teaching heresy. To say that God created man in an already fallen state is outright heresy and should not be taught on this board (or anywhere else).

Again, God did not create man in a "fallen state". Why don't you read my posts? He created man "a little lower than the angels", subjected to the "frailties" (vanity) of flesh and of this world. Without eating of the fruit of the Tree of Life, Adam would have died, can't you see that?

AK, in fact has written that Adam DIDN'T NEED CHRIST. According to God's PLAN, if Adam were ever to see the New Heavens and the New Earth, he most certainly WOULD NEED CHRIST. Do you think the New Heavens and New Earth were an AFTERTHOUGHT OF GOD? Or was it, as the scriptures clearly indicates, that His plan was was conceived EVEN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH. Quit listening to man, and start listening to the Word of God.

You seem to think that by my answering the following questions, that I may receive some pertinent revelation and stop being a "heretic" as you and AK are so fond of referring to me as. Well, to reveal to the board, that indeed I have examined your questions and have attempted to respond to them with reasonable, scriptural responses, so will I undertake to give YOU AND AK an answer to which you will undoubtedly disagree.

1. "very good" is more of a mistranslation or an inadequacy in the translation. The Hebrew here, tov meod, does mean "perfect." It means God used force to bring about something that was "acceptable." Is anything less than perfection acceptable to God?

You accept the "natural man's" view of "perfection", and NOT what God's PERFECTION is. God said that all His hands had created were VERY GOOD - PERIOD! Nowhere in the scriptures does God say that all His creation is PERFECT. The only ONE perfect that has walked on this earth is Christ. To say that Adam was created perfect, or in fact any of God's creation was PERFECT, is to put it on a par with Christ and God, which it never was, nor can it be. Read 1 Cor 15.

2. You have taken total depravity to a very tragic extreme. Even John Calvin (or any of the Reformers that I know of) did not take it to the extreme you have. Sin defaces the image of God but it does not destroy it. If sin destroys God's image entirely, we would not be here. We would lose our ability to create, reason, have a conscience, etc. We would lose our distinction between us and animals. What do you say to 1 Corinthians 11:7 where Paul explicitly states that man is still made in God's image??

Where have I stated that "man in God's image" is anything less than what God created it? He said it was included in all His hands had made and that it was VERY GOOD, and with this I agree and understand. It has not changed and thus I can look at another man and know that for one reason or another he/she is there for a purpose for which God created, and as such I must respect them and even love them, even my enemies.

What sin brought into this world was "enmity with God" because God's hates sin and cannot abide in or with it. It also brought death (physically), to which we remain subject. But Christ has made it possible to be "reconciled" with God through Him via His Holy Spirit. One day, we shall also be reconciled "physically", but in a state like unto Christ's where there dwells no sin.

3. If man is no longer created in the image of God, we lose our value altogether, therefore we lose the only reason that murder, abortion or any of those things are inherently wrong. Again, this goes back to Genesis 9:6, which you've ignored. Remember, this command not to murder came after the fall and gives the reason it is wrong as being that we are created in God's image.

This proves a point. You and AK keep saying that YES, we are in God's image, but "marred". Aren't you adding to the scriptures by this? Just WHAT is marred? Adam's character? His moral self? His loving self? Just what? Are you saying that these and other characteristics are in the same category as God's? If so, you are self deceived.

4. What is your interpretation of Genesis 9:6, 1 Timothy 4, James 3:9 and 1 Corinthians 11:7?

Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

James 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

3669 homoiosis {hom-oy'-o-sis}

from 3666; TDNT - 5:190,684; n f

AV - similitude 1; 1

1) a making like

2) likeness: after the likeness of God

3669

3669 homoiosis {hom-oy'-o-sis}

from 3666; TDNT - 5:190,684; n f

AV - similitude 1; 1

1) a making like

2) likeness: after the likeness of God

1 Cor 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

I have already responded to this, but you seem to insist. A counterfeit dollar bill is made in the LIKENESS of a REAL dollar bill, but to an expert, there is a difference. Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto God, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH.

5. To be reconciled, in the Biblical since, is to be brought back to something. My question is, if man was never perfect, if man has always been sinful, if man has always been in rebellion, then how can we be "brought back" if we have never belonged? Consequently, if we are not being restored to the complete image of God, what are we being reconciled (brought back) to?

What we are "waiting/hoping for" is for complete reconciliation with God, both soul and body. Today, those of us who know Christ, know Him via the Holy Spirit. This IS TODAY! We are NOT waiting to be RECONCILED TO THE IMAGE OF ADAM - PRE-FALL! It is to God we shall be reconciled through Christ. The creation waits IN HOPE for the MANIFESTATION of the Son's of God. That day has not yet arrived.

We are told:

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3664 homoios {hom'-oy-os}

from the base of 3674; TDNT - 5:186,684; adj

AV - like 47; 47

1) like, similar, resembling

1a) like: i.e. resembling

1b) like: i.e. corresponding to a thing

This is the PERFECTION you and AK are applying to the WHOLE HUMAN RACE, which is false, for that day has yet to come.

6. It is true that God is the originator of perfection. However, if He is the only one who can be perfect this means that even when we are in Heaven and on the New Earth we will still be sinning. If, however, God can be perfect and those whom He chooses can be perfect, then it is quite possible that Adam was perfect. In fact, it is impossible for Adam to have been anything but perfect...you are asserting that God created an imperfection...this is a point you completely drop and ignore in your post.

Now why would you ASSUME that I am intimating that we will continue sinning in heaven? How foolish! God is NOT the author of sin for He cannot sin against Himself, and in another place after having been accused of his affair with Bathsheba, David confesses: "It is against you alone Oh God which I have sinned." Here again, you prove you do not know what you are speaking of. The PERFECTION which God desires/demands is nothing less than the perfection of Christ:

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

5048 teleioo {tel-i-o'-o}

from 5046; TDNT - 8:79,1161; v

AV - make perfect 12, perfect 4, finish 4, fulfil 2, be perfect 1,

consecrate 1; 24

1) to make perfect, complete

1a) to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end

2) to complete (perfect)

2a) add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full

2b) to be found perfect

3) to bring to the end (goal) proposed

4) to accomplish

4a) bring to a close or fulfilment by event

4a1) of the prophecies of the scriptures

Now which is it? Adam was TELEIOO, or was Christ made TELEIOO? Make your choice.

7. If we were created for glory then:

* Why are we the only ones in His image?

* Why are we the only ones with a super intellect?

* Why are we the only ones with culture?

* Why are we the only ones He came to die for?

* Why are we the only ones that were given culture?

* Why did He create other things?

* Why did He make us unique?

You appear to have a lot of questions for which you think you have resolved the answers with your paradigm. Please reconsider:

Proverbs 3:5-7 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. 7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

Now if you may be so kind, how about answering these questions FROM THE SCRIPTURES:

1) WHEN did God conceive of the Plan of Salvation?

2) WHAT is the Plan of Salvation?

3) HOW is the Plan of Salvation delivered?

4) WHY did God produce this Plan of Salvation?

5) WHEN will the Plan of Salvation be complete? Even for Adam?

Thank you and God Bless,

Dad Ernie

[Kabowd]

What you and AK propose is that a "perfect world" was created by God and that after Adam sinned, God modified His creation to accommodate the new paradigm of sin to which Adam succumbed. My Bible says that on the 7th day God rested from all the works His hands had made. Does that mean anything to you? Of course not, without a major paradigm shift of your own. Once God finished His creation, He looked over all that He had created and said it was "very good" - and again I add - for the purpose for which He created them. Now did God NOT KNOW of the sin that Adam would commit? You seem to think so. Yet the Lamb's Book of Life was written from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, which you seem to overlook and never respond to. In another part of the Forum another poster suggested that God had Plan A, which was to Adam and all his progeny to live in a "perfect world", but when Plan A fell apart, God had a backup Plan B, in which He sent Christ to REDEEM the human race back to Himself, yet, scripture tells us that Christ was "slain from the foundation of the world". So, no there was NO PLAN A, God has always had ONE plan, for Adam and ALL his progeny and that is "salvation and redemption by Christ alone".

You appear to be in a group I have encountered before who believe that there is more than one way to receive salvation. If Christ is NOT the ONLY WAY, but Adam could have remained obedient for his 930 years or longer, then it is you my friend who are preaching "another Gospel".

First of all, you keep contradicting yourself. You assert that Adam needed Christ from the beginning, that he was not perfect. Yet, you deny that God created sin. You can't have it both ways, Ernie. Pick one. If God created Adam with a sinful nature, God created something sinful, inherently flawed. This is the consequence of what you believe, and it's heresy. You cannot reconcile the two.

All you've done is skirt around the issue over and over again. Re-stating the same things. You're also STILL using strawman arguments and now asserting that AK and I believe there is more than one way to God? That's baloney. C'mon.

The entire heart of the issue is this: if you believe and continue to assert that Adam was sinful from the beginning, you are advocating heresy.

[Dad Ernie]

First of all, you keep contradicting yourself. You assert that Adam needed Christ from the beginning, that he was not perfect. Yet, you deny that God created sin. You can't have it both ways, Ernie. Pick one. If God created Adam with a sinful nature, God created something sinful, inherently flawed. This is the consequence of what you believe, and it's heresy. You cannot reconcile the two.

Greetings Tess,

There is only one that ever was or ever will be - PERFECT, and that is Christ. Sin is committed when one disobeys God, as Adam did. How do we overcome sin? By the "Spirit of God". Nowhere does the scriptures say that ANY man received the Holy Spirit to be IN THEM prior to Pentecost. Jesus, Himself, makes this statement.

Because God gave Adam the ability to choose, God placed before him a test - the two trees. But Adam listened to his wife instead of obeying God and thus he sinned. At no time have I said that God created "sin". I have said that God subjected ALL CREATION TO VANITY (frailty), lower than the angels, and often tempted by the lusts of the flesh.

Let another more wiser than I continue with this discussion. I have asked you to respond to some simple questions and you apparently refuse.

God Bless and have a Great Easter,

Dad Ernie

[apothanein kerdos]

G2937

κτίσις

ktisis

ktis'-is

From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.

G2936

κτίζω

ktizō

ktid'-zo

Probably akin to G2932 (through the idea of the proprietorship of the manufacturer); to fabricate, that is, found (form originally): - create, Creator, make.

My interpretation automatically trumps yours in that I looked at the manuscript and interpreted it on my own study and merit whereas you looked to a concordance (dictionary). This does not allow for context and therefore your attempt no longer matters at this point.

Secondly, and more importantly, you didn't even get the correct word. The word "vanity" that you keep using is mataiotes would be "frustration" or even in more of a context "void of truth." It actually comes from the word mataios which means an absense of truth or an absense of purpose (both mean essentially the same thing). At this point, we look at what Paul said in Romans 8. If we take your heretical application and use the proper words, this means that God created a world void of truth, i.e. already fallen. Now, the world was created through God's voice...everything came about because He spoke it into existence. If something is void of truth is it what...a lie. Thus, if God created the world without a purpose and/or void of truth, then God lied when He spoke, or at the very least He spoke without using truth. This goes against the very nature of God. Therefore, God did this AFTER the fall had occured. To assert otherwise is to say God lied, which is heretical.

What you and AK propose is that a "perfect world" was created by God and that after Adam sinned, God modified His creation to accommodate the new paradigm of sin to which Adam succumbed. My Bible says that on the 7th day God rested from all the works His hands had made. Does that mean anything to you? Of course not, without a major paradigm shift of your own.

I ignore it because it's irrelevant to the discussion.

Now did God NOT KNOW of the sin that Adam would commit? You seem to think so.

God knew Adam would sin, which is why He created Adam as complete and in perfection, this way it was man who caused his own fall and not God creating him that way.

Yet the Lamb's Book of Life was written from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, which you seem to overlook and never respond to.

That's a real point? I thought you were joking, that's why I never responded. Anyway, it's absolutely irrelevant to the discussion. God's foreknowledge of events has NOTHING to do with Adam being perfect or us still being in the image of God. You're trying to grasp at straws here, but they're the wrong straws.

Again, God did not create man in a "fallen state". Why don't you read my posts? He created man "a little lower than the angels", subjected to the "frailties" (vanity) of flesh and of this world. Without eating of the fruit of the Tree of Life, Adam would have died, can't you see that?

*sigh* You know, maybe the Catholic church was correct in keeping the Bible from certain people....I now understand some of the logic in that....

Let's look at this cesspool of misinterpretation. For one, "a little lower than the angels" is not refering to our ontological or even ethical status, therefore it still doesn't apply to this discussion. It is refering to our purpose. What is the purpose of angels? To serve God in every capacity and act as His messengers. What is the purpose of man? To love God and obey Him and have direct contact with Him. Our purpose is different from Angels, and angels have a "higher" purpose. Thus we are "a little lower." It's absurd to apply this in a metaphysical or ethical way because it is saying that the image of God is a little lower than the angels, which elevates angels above God.

Secondly, the conclusion of your theory is that man was made in a fallen state. YOu are asserting that man could still die pre-fall. Scripture does not say this. THe Tree of Life is not literal life, if you've read the Bible you would know this. It reappears in Revelation in the new Jerusalem. Now, if the Tree of Life is the only thing that makes us eternal, then if we don't eat it in the new Jerusalem, what then? The Tree of Life, like most everything in the Bible, was real but symbolic. It resembled trusting in God and relying on Him which is what gives us life. It resembles the same thing in Revelation.

Adam was created imortal and was then subjected to death AFTER he at the fruit.

AK, in fact has written that Adam DIDN'T NEED CHRIST. According to God's PLAN, if Adam were ever to see the New Heavens and the New Earth, he most certainly WOULD NEED CHRIST. Do you think the New Heavens and New Earth were an AFTERTHOUGHT OF GOD? Or was it, as the scriptures clearly indicates, that His plan was was conceived EVEN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH. Quit listening to man, and start listening to the Word of God.

Heed your own advice, you're the one preaching heresy here.

Regardless, no, prior to the fall Adam did not need Christ. What is the purpose of salvation? To restore us to what we once were. If Adam was what we once were, how could he be restored to what he already was? The entire purpose of Christ was to redeem what Adam had done. If Adam needed Christ before the fall, then the purpose of salvation would be for Christ to redeem man from what God had done. This would make God a sinner.

As for afterthoughts, no, they were not afterthoughts at all. However, this has nothing to do with creation. God made creation knowing what would occur, which is why He made it perfect. THe purpose of salvation is to restore us to what we once were, not to achieve what man has never been. God created a perfect world, knowing we would fall, but He did so that when we did fall, it would cause a full impact of sin.

You accept the "natural man's" view of "perfection", and NOT what God's PERFECTION is. God said that all His hands had created were VERY GOOD - PERIOD! Nowhere in the scriptures does God say that all His creation is PERFECT. The only ONE perfect that has walked on this earth is Christ. To say that Adam was created perfect, or in fact any of God's creation was PERFECT, is to put it on a par with Christ and God, which it never was, nor can it be. Read 1 Cor 15.

This is such an incompetent response...it doesn't address the Hebrew translation. WHy doesn't it address it? Because you can't respond to it. Fact is, I'm 100% correct on this, and so is every Church Father and leader that has interpreted it as such for 2,000 years. I went ahead and asked Shiloh to help, to see if maybe I might be off...here is his reply to what you said on this:

Tov Meod for very good implies flawless perfection regarding the initial state of creation. It does not put Adam on par with Christ and God to say that he was created perfect. God cannot create less than perfection. Saying that Adam was perfect is not the same as saying that Adam was Divine. Those are two completely different concepts.

Tov Meod is a term denoting force. Meod means "great" or "greatly." But that does not really capture the connotation. If you can imagine the way water forcefully gushes in torents from a fire-hydrant, or the unstopple force of the flow of Niagra Falls, it gives a greater understanding of this term. So "very good" is a forceful term, really. In our vernacular it could be rendered, "good, and then some."

God has only one standard of "good." He cannot operate from anything less. For God to call something good, it would have to meet His absolute standard. It was "good" in abundance. It would by virtue of a perfect Creator, been absolutely perfect in His eyes for Him to call it "good." That is only logical.

As you can see, perfection does not equal divinity, but it does mean that he was perfect in every sense of the word.

This proves a point. You and AK keep saying that YES, we are in God's image, but "marred". Aren't you adding to the scriptures by this? Just WHAT is marred? Adam's character? His moral self? His loving self? Just what? Are you saying that these and other characteristics are in the same category as God's? If so, you are self deceived.

I really wish I coudl debate someone that understood this issue and had a legitimate stance against it. This is absurd.

We're not adding to the scriptures, it's logical analysis taken from the scriptures. The scriptures say constantly that we are in God's image but it also says we are to be conformed to the image of Christ. Logical analysis: man still has the image of God but it is a distorted image. The only reason you're making the obtuse requirement of it being word for word in scripture is because you have nothing else. When someone goes, "show me in scripture where it says that exactly" it means they've lost because they have no other way to counter it.

Image of God means our personalities, what makes us human, our "manishness" (stealing that from Francis Schaeffer). Love, anger, creativity, thought, intelligence, emotion, etc. all compose the image of God. We see these when people paint pictures, write songs, express love to one another, help one another, etc. Yet we see the fallen nature when this image is abused, when people produce pornographic paintings, songs that glorify sin, etc. The purpose of salvation is not just to save us from sins, but restore the image of God found in Christ. Christ lived in the "image of God" and showed us what it looks like.

A counterfeit dollar bill is made in the LIKENESS of a REAL dollar bill, but to an expert, there is a difference.

Even more heresy, you are saying that the image is a fake image of God? So God made us in His image but it's really a counterfeit? Stop relying on concordances because you just got the wrong interpretation. I refuse to respond to anything else where you use a concordance. They are stupid, they barely help, and if you have no training in either language, they are useless.

1) WHEN did God conceive of the Plan of Salvation?

Before He made the world.

2) WHAT is the Plan of Salvation?

To restore us to shalom. Notice we are to be restored, which means we have to go back to something......if that is the case, what are being restored to? You have NEVER answered this. This is because you're intellecutally dishonest and refuse to answer or respond to anything that destroys your position.

3) HOW is the Plan of Salvation delivered?

Through Christ.

4) WHY did God produce this Plan of Salvation?

Because Adam fell into sin.

5) WHEN will the Plan of Salvation be complete? Even for Adam?

At the end of the age, when God brings down the new Earth.

You're out of your element Ernie......nothing you wrote or responded with even dealt with half of what we've been talking about.

[Kabowd]

*bump*

[Christian's_Daughter]

I think this is an extremely important question to ask because how we view ourselves (and others) will reflect in everything we do. Our culture tells us that we are nothing more than matter which came about by chance, and even though they tell us we're more "advanced" than the rest of the members of the good chain, we're still just a part of the chain. This is what society feeds us from very early on, so it's no wonder we have low self-esteem and regard one another with such little respect. This has led us to devaluing life altogether (from anorexia, cutting, suicide, abortion and euthenasia, to embryonic stem-cell research). It's no wonder that our generation has seen the highest rates of depression, suicide and eating disorders. But if we view ourselves and other human beings as image bearers of God, it puts everyting into a whole new perspective. Everyone, every single human, takes on a deeper value and significance when we view them the way they should be viewed. It is the imago Dei that seperates us from every other created thing.

After the fall, even though sin tainted everything, Scripture teaches that the image of God still remains. This is why there is repeated admonition against harming others, cursing them or murdering them. Both James 3:9-10 and Genesis 9:6 use being image bearers of God as the reason we should not harm others. Thus, this tells us that even fallen human beings somehow retain the image of God. Even so, Paul teaches in Colossians and Ephesians about growing in the image of God and being "renewed". So I guess the most complete answer to your question is that yes, fallen people still retain the image of God...however it is not complete. This is why we need Christ to restore and redeem us to our complete purpose.

Some of the proofs we have that we are image bearers are: fallen people are creative, fallen people still have a conscience, fallen people still have the capacity for logic and reasoning, fallen people can still love, have relationships and do good things. Of course, none of these things can achieve salvation and still lack redemption. They will always be tainted and incomplete, apart from Christ.

The best way to understand it would be to realize that when God created people, His purpose was for them/us was to reflect His image on the earth. We were given the honor of representing Him by cultivating the earth, creating, loving, overseeing and developing a kingdom that honored it's King. When Adam sinned, this purpose was thwarted but not destroyed. So God sent Jesus, so that through Him, our original purpose could be restored. Make sense? If fallen human beings no longer retained the image of God, there would be no reason to value life at all.

By the way, most of what I just said I learned from a from a book called "Heaven is a place on Earth" by Michael Wittmer. I highly recommend it. It gives a very thorough and biblically sound portrait of who we are, why we're here and what the future holds for us.

This is an extremly good answer, I don't see any better. thanks for sharing this, as it happens I have been having this discussion with someone who says we are no longer made in Gods image and that it is ok to cut because of that. This may just save someone, I hope you don't mind if I share this? Thanks again.