Are Christians Guilty?

October 20, 2003

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.(I would equate this to rejecting Christ which would make Jews equal with gentiles)

Jews have always been "equal with Gentiles." Name a place in Scripture when God said that Jews were better than Gentiles.

Breaking the law and rejecting Jesus are two different things. They cannot be "equated." Christians routinely break the law. We all know Christians who lie, covet, etc. That does not mean that they reject Jesus.

Romans 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision (gentile) keep the righteousness of the law (receive Christ), shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?(I would equate this to accepting Christ and becoming a Jew)

So why is it that if a Jew keeps the law he has "rejected Christ" and is trying to be "saved by works," and if a Gentile keeps the law, this is equivalent to accepting Christ? On what basis do you make this equivalance? Where does the BIBLE say that accepting Christ makes a Gentile a Jew? That is just sloppy theology.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: (lineage doesn't make you a Jew)

What he is saying is that physical circumcision is not enough to make you righteous in God's eyes. This has nothing to do with "lineage." Paul is not talking about who is or is not physically a Jew. That is not the context of the passage. He is countering the self-righteousness of those who have put their faith in thier observance of the law while ignoring the fact that they need to have circumcised hearts. What good is trying to live according to the law if you do not love God with all your heart and soul?

"circumcised in heart" means "God's chosen", Jew or gentile

No, it does not mean "God's chosen."

Deut. 10:16, 30:6, Jer. 4:4 teach us that to have a circumcised heart means having the natural corruption of the heart removed. A person who is circumcised in heart will have humility before God, and he will love God with all his heart and soul. This has nothing to do with being chosen. Christians will try anything to rob the Jews of what God has given to them.

The Church has not replaced Israel because, Israel was given physical blessings, while the Church has been given spiritual blessings. It is important to keep the two separate. If the Church is to replace Israel and thus receive all of Israel's blessings, then the Church would be expected to keep the laws and conditions those blessings rested on. Instead, the Church has been given a better covenant and better (spiritual) promises. The Church and Israel will fulfill the plan of God concurrently. The Church is the Church and Israel is Israel. Keep the two separate, and the Bible is easy to understand. Trying to make the Church Israel just adds confusion to the Word of God. The Church is the Body of Christ, and the Jews are still the chosen people. By the way, "chosen" does not mean "favorite." Even the "chosen" people will go to hell if they reject Jesus. God is no respecter of persons.

October 23, 2003

Salutations.

Where does the BIBLE say that accepting Christ makes a Gentile a Jew? That is just sloppy theology.

Eph 2:14 "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;"

Eph 2:15 "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

Eph 2:16 "And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"

Eph 2:19 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;"

IMHO.. WE, both Jew and Gentile, are IDENTICAL in the eyes of The Lord. ALL covenents and gifts, BOTH physical and spiritual, given to the House of Abraham are shared EQUALLY by both, and BOTH have become 'the chosen people'.

Thank You O' Lord, my God, my Love, Your wisdom is NEVER sloppy, Please return to us and guide us onto the rightious path, that we may be worthy of Your gifts. There is pain in the world Lord, children of ALL nations are suffering, the arrogance of man has brought us to the brink of the abyss, and only Your hand can be our salvation. You know me as a sinner Lord, You know my heart, and I thank The Father, You know my name. amen

Gen 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

Please note that there are many that can bless "them", but there is only one "him that curseth", we all know who he is, and I will not speak his name.

Go in Peace, Go in God

October 23, 2003

The Church and Israel will fulfill the plan of God concurrently. The Church is the Church and Israel is Israel

Personally I think this is a false doctrine! What do you base this assumption on in scripture?

October 24, 2003

As if you would listen? You simply don't have ears to hear.

You and that pretty European guy in your signature can guide this Bible study. Let the Word of God be truth and all men be liars.

Pick a prophet....ANY prophet and I'll show you where He CLEARLY states that;

1. Israel is not the church.

2. They have irrevocably been given the land of Israel

3. They have a glorious future when they finally recieve their King.

4. Those who war against them will recieve the judgement of opposing God Himself.

You are kicking against the goads, bro. This is a slam dunk.

This passage from Ezekial should be enough but I know you too well. No biggie....there are a few dozen more passages like this one.

11 For thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out.

12 "(18) As a shepherd cares for his herd in the day when he is among his scattered sheep, so I will (19) care for My sheep and will deliver them from all the places to which they were scattered on a (20) cloudy and gloomy day.

13 "I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land; and I will (21) feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the (22) streams, and in all the inhabited places of the land.

14 "I will feed them in a (23) good pasture, and their grazing ground will be on the mountain heights of Israel. There they will lie down on good grazing ground and feed in (24) rich pasture on the mountains of Israel.

15 "I will (25) feed My flock and I will lead them to rest," declares the Lord GOD.

JesusisGod2 · October 24, 2003

The Church and Israel will fulfill the plan of God concurrently. The Church is the Church and Israel is Israel

Personally I think this is a false doctrine! What do you base this assumption on in scripture?

Hey Smasher,

I'll bring this verse up again for you review, this verse not only says that God after the fulfillment of the Gentiles will again turn to Israel and save them all. But that there is a distinction between Israel and the church

The Church is a mixture of the Jews and everyone else, but in these following verses Paul is refering strictly to the Jews. Romans 11:25-30

"For I would not, brethren that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part, is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the gentiles"

Here Paul seperates Israel from the gentiles, which is the Church, "The fullness of the gentiles" which is a mixture of Jews and everyone else. But there is a day "the fullness" when the church will be complete.

But notice Paul is definately seperating Israel and the gentiles.

"And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, there shall come from Zion the deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob"

You will notice that Jesus here again turns to Israel, "the deliverer" and turn ungodliness away from Jacob Notice he is not only refering to the Nation Israel, but To His people, the jews in

Jacob

I am the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob , He is again turning to the elect.

"For this is My covenant unto them (The Jews), when I take away their sins" verse 27

God says He will take away their sins, refering to the Jews. May not seem fair to some but God is God, and who are we to question Him.

If werent for the stubborness of the Jews, who knows where we would be in Gods plan of salvation, I for one am grateful.

"As concerning the gospel, they (the Jews) are enemies for your (all non-Jew) sakes. But as touching the election They are beloved for the fathers sake"

For the sake of the Fathers, Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, and the covenant God made with them, God will redeem Israel.

Not that the Jews or anyone for that matter are worthy of Gods salvation, but for the sake of Gods promise, God will open the eyes of the remnant of the Jews and they will turn to Jesus for salvation.

Look at this next verse

"For the gifts and the callings of God are without repentance" Verse 29

God will not repent of His calling of Israel.

God has been merciful to us by including us into His plan of salvation.

But as you can see by these verses God not only says that He will again turn to Israel, it does show that there is a difference between the Church and Israel.

This salvation of Israel happens after the "Fullness of the gentiles"

As to how God does it is a mystery as Paul states in verse 25, but the fact is that it will happen.

Praise God and pray for the peace of Israel

In Jesus

Kevin

October 24, 2003

My question is where does it say that God has two distinct and seperate chosen people. This is a fallacy!

JesusisGod2 · October 24, 2003

My question is where does it say that God has two distinct and seperate chosen people. This is a fallacy!

Hi Smasher,

Now this is just a guess, but arent the Old testament saints and the church two seperate and distinct groups of people?

October 24, 2003

Now this is just a guess, but arent the Old testament saints and the church two seperate and distinct groups of people?

No, I don't think so. They were justified by faith just like Abraham and the Christians of today only they looked forward to the messiah and we are looking back. The Jewish and Hebrew saved are part and parcel of the body of Christ, not a seperate people.

October 24, 2003

My question is where does it say that God has two distinct and seperate chosen people. This is a fallacy!

God does not have two distinct and separate chosen people. He has only one. The Jews are the chosen people, period. If you are a Christian, then you are a child of God. That is better than being a Jew. That is better than merely being "chosen." "Chosen" does not mean "saved." Being a member of the "chosen" people does not save a Jewish person from eternity without God. Only salvation by grace through faith in the Messiah can save.

Israel is Israel, and the Church is the Church. You call the Church "Israel" when it works in your favor. As you can see from the Scriptures offered by others on this thread, you cannot defend that approach consistently. You cannot insert the word "church" whereever you see the word "Israel" and have a coherent interpretation of Scripture. Otherwise, you would have a "partial blindness coming upon the "church" until the fullness of the Gentiles have come in." That makes no sense.

Being chosen does not make you saved, and being saved does not make you "chosen."

October 24, 2003

Leper

IMHO.. WE, both Jew and Gentile, are IDENTICAL in the eyes of The Lord. ALL covenents and gifts, BOTH physical and spiritual, given to the House of Abraham are shared EQUALLY by both, and BOTH have become 'the chosen people'.

We are not indenctical in the Lord. Saved Jews and saved Gentiles stand as EQUALS before God. That does not make them IDENTICAL. Jews are Jews. Gentiles are Gentiles. It is not a sin to be a Gentile. Gentiles are not second class. Being a Jew is not a badge of honor. Being "chosen is not something to wear on one's sleeve. Why can't Gentile believers be satisfied with the knowledge that they are child of God? That is better than all the "chosenness" in the world. Nowhere in the Bible are Gentile believers referred to as Jews or "chosen" or anything remotely similiar. Christians just pencil that in there, because they do not understand what "chosen" means. It means being selected to perform a task or complete a mission. Chosen does not mean "favorite." It does not mean "saved." It does not mean "special." It does not mean "better." It is not something to parade around or show off. It must grieve the heart of Jesus to see you Gentile believers lusting after something that does not belong to you, when he gave his life on the cross so that you could have something far better. Talk about trampling underfoot the Son of God!