Infant Baptism

[eric]

What I would like to know is.....Who instituted infant baptism and for what purpose?

And please dont quote me Luther or any other of your pet writers, because they are not infallible. Answer me from the bible only.

John 3:5:

5 Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.

1 Peter 3:21

...and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also

[Kabowd]

Baptism does not have to be by immersion.

This is incorrect. The word "Baptize" is a transliteration of the Greek word baptizo. The immersion part comes from bapto which indicates dipping. Thus, the word literally means "to immerse".

It cleanses the baby from original sin (right with God).

Scripture?

If I remember correctly, the baptism of the jailor's "household" was given as support for this practice. I'm sorry, but I can't accept this as biblical evidence: too much speculation. You assume the jailor had children, then you assume at least one of his children must have been an "infant." I also believe it's unfair for some people to compare the Bible not directly addressing infant baptism to not directly addressing topics like abortion. Baptism is biblically mandated by God; it's not a political issue.

I agree that the comparison to abortion isn't fair, but not because it's a "political" issue. Abortion is completely seperate in that the idea of imago dei is a theme running throughout Scripture. There is PLENTY of Scriptural support against murder, and plenty of Scriptural support that life is valid while in utero. Infant baptism, on the contrary, is completely absent from Scripture. For one to make it an absolute, one must add to the Scriptures to do so....which is explicitly against God's Word.

You also mentioned that you don't necessarily see it as a bad thing, and I used to think the same way until I heard statements like the one above (where some people believe that baptism magically removes the stain of original sin) or they believe it is equivalent to salvation. This, indeed, can be a very dangerous belief (depending on the intent).

Remember, the word baptize just means "to immerse", the context provides into what substance one should be immersed. Sometimes the Scripture speaks of water, other times it is "into Christ". For instance Luke 3:16 John even states that he baptized in water, but One was coming who would baptize them in Spirit. You really have to consider the context.

And regarding the church fathers, they didn't all agree amongst themselves on the issue of baptism. This makes them an unreliable source.

[William Putnam]

What I would like to know is.....Who instituted infant baptism and for what purpose?

And please dont quote me Luther or any other of your pet writers, because they are not infallible. Answer me from the bible only.

John 3:5:

5 Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.

1 Peter 3:21

...and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also

[eric]

Oh dear! I should have known. Sorry mate I don't do catholic v protestant bebates. It causes too much dissention. Bigots like you make it embarrassing for the rest of the catholics who frequently post on this board like Fiosh for instance. So don't be offended if I don't respond to any more of your posts.

[William Putnam]

Oh dear! I should have known. Sorry mate I don't do catholic v protestant bebates. It causes too much dissention. Bigots like you make it embarrassing for the rest of the catholics who frequently post on this board like Fiosh for instance. So don't be offended if I don't respond to any more of your posts.

WOW! So sensitive!

Maybe it's because I have been active in CARM too long.

So, sorry I hurt your feelings. I probably will be leaving this thread anyway...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+

[Smalcald]

SW answered.

And they are just as full of criminals who were baptized after they walked down the aisle following an altar call so what's your point? Faith is a gift and the Bible clearly teaches we have the ability to reject that gift, whether it was supplied in baptism or otherwise.

My point was given in your post. You are right, adults have the ability to reject or accept both salvation and baptism, but a child hasn't. A child has no idea of who or what he/she is getting baprised into and for what reason and if you say it is a command, then show me where it is commanded outside of being an expression of proof of salvation that can only be given after repentance.

Hi Eric, I think you are at the heart of the issue here. We are talking about a fundamentally different idea of what Baptism is and does. Is it an outward symbol or proof of salvation only that would mean it is something that we do for God, a ceremony only? Or is it something God does for us, is it real, and does anything spiritual actually happens in Baptism? Also it delineates some difference between those who accept this idea of an concept of the age of accountability, which also does not appear in scripture, versus a concept of faith which does not rely on reason or mental ability, but on God alone and the power of the Holy Spirit. If you do not baptize all people in a congregation, but make a distinction based on age or mental capacity between some and not others, then we must have some sort of reason for not baptizing small children, thus we must create the idea of an age of accountability.

I believe we can see from scripture, mainly in Mark concerning what Baptism works and in Christ's injunction to Baptize all nations (infants and children are included in all nations if they are indeed human and have souls), that Baptism is something God does for us, it is a gift from God, and it does something real. Babies and children indeed can and do have faith. The question would by why not baptize infants and children? I think that would be the more important question, where is the biblical support for not baptizing them, in that we do have biblical support for what we are to do as Christians from Christ Himself, GO and baptize all nations.

I can understand your support for adult baptism, but adult baptism is a recent invention, it first came about well after the Reformation and did not really take hold until the late 19th and 20th centuries. Now this does not invalidate adult baptism at all, but it certainly would cast doubt on the idea that infant baptism is somehow totally outside of Christian thought and practice, it is not.

I think part of the reaction against infant baptism has come and came because there are those who think that baptism can save somebody without faith or that if one is baptized as in infant or at any time in their lives, that they are saved. This of course is false, only faith in Christ can save us, but Baptism is part of a believer

[Kabowd]

I am in agreement with Mr. eric that these sorts of discussions are often fruitless because of the vast differences between the Catholic and Protestant beliefs. I don't intend on continuing in this topic, but I did want to address a few things:

Hi Eric, I think you are at the heart of the issue here. We are talking about a fundamentally different idea of what Baptism is and does. Is it an outward symbol or proof of salvation only that would mean it is something that we do for God, a ceremony only? Or is it something God does for us, is it real, and does anything spiritual actually happens in Baptism?

Baptism is both something we do and something done to us. It's both. The commands to both "go" and "be" indicate action. There is one form of baptism done by man which is symbolic (into water), and one baptism done by God which is spiritual (into Christ). One of the reasons water baptism is viewed as symbolic is because of Romans 6:4 -

"We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."

Christianity did not invent baptism, this was an entirely pagan idea at first. Baptism, historically, was a means for a person to identify with a certain belief system and the immersion symbolized a "washing away" of their past life. Paul, here is referring to the symobolism of baptism....unless of course we choose to take this literally. Obviously we can't take it literally or we'd all need to be physically crucified, buried and physically raised from the dead.

Another good verse that represents the symbolism of baptism is 1 Peter 3:18-21 -

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

[chrismarc]

eric said,

The jails and cemetaries are loaded with all kinds of criminals who have led a life of crime and been gunned down in the midst of their activities, and I don't doubt some were baptised as infants by doting parents, so their baptism didn't help them much.

Not many infants have led a life of crime. Baptism removes

original sin, but not our sinful nature. Even " born-again"

adults have sinned, thus the need for confession and repentance.

When Jesus was born, He was taken to the temple when He was 8 days old for purification with His mother and was circumcised, but He was not baptised until He started His ministry when J the B baptised Him.

Jesus had no need for baptism - he had no sin.

[Scarletprayers]

eric said,

The jails and cemetaries are loaded with all kinds of criminals who have led a life of crime and been gunned down in the midst of their activities, and I don't doubt some were baptised as infants by doting parents, so their baptism didn't help them much.

Not many infants have led a life of crime. Baptism removes

original sin, but not our sinful nature. Even " born-again"

adults have sinned, thus the need for confession and repentance.

When Jesus was born, He was taken to the temple when He was 8 days old for purification with His mother and was circumcised, but He was not baptised until He started His ministry when J the B baptised Him.

Jesus had no need for baptism - he had no sin.

I don't think Jesus wasted his time for no reason, while he himself was sinless, he was still baptised.

[chrismarc]

eric said,

The water spoken of in Jn.3:5 is not the water of baptism as I understand it

and it doesn't answer my question of who instituted water baptism of infants.

eric.

It speaks of the necessity of baptism to enter the Kingdom

of Heaven, which applies to all, including infants.

" Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them,

for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.' When he had

placed his hands on them, he went on from there." (Mt. 19:14-15)